Kore Discussion / Speculation

[BuildsLegos]

There could be an entire metal boot between the leather one and his fleshy foot, but I like that idea best of all!

[Erix]

Have we had the thought that he's an android or construct?

http://www.goblinscomic.org/12032010-2/ shows that his boot was either steel capped or he had no flesh in his foot.

And we've already seen a metallic organism that can bond with a humanoid.. It's possible that Kore could be some other version of Klik. His helmet even looks somewhat similar, and we've seen hints of something white or metallic underneath it. Dies had his injured arm replaced by Klik; Kore could have had a massive head injury repaired in a similar way. It sure would be an easy explanation for his odd behavior too.

[Synch]

There also looks to be something possibly metallic under his helmet too in the bottom third panel of this strip: http://www.goblinscomic.org/01182011-2/

[Krulle]

Yes, we had that before.
But can a Golem or otherwise constructed Being cast spells?

[MakesNoSense]

The metal underneath the leather boot is confusing to me, unless his feet are smooth metal (then the leather is for traction only)

I am not sure that Kore would be a Golem or other construct, since the eye we can see seems normal enough, and the flesh around it appears likewise normal. When we see him partially without his helm, we can see metal studs on top of his forehead and nose, so perhaps that means that he is more of a darth vader? alive, but in the process of being consumed by machine (so to speak).

That could be kind of interesting if the other side of his face was some sort of clockwork, with metal gears and such.

[Krulle]

The metal underneath the leather boot is, in my opinion, just an armour like the knights wore:

A boot on top is just less suspicious, and might distract the opponent(s) to attack his well protected feet instead of other possible weak spots, thus wasting one attack opportunity.

[Lurks_In_Shadows]

A T-1000 Terminator? Would definitely explain the attitude.

[MakesNoSense]

The metal underneath the leather boot is, in my opinion, just an armour like the knights wore:

A boot on top is just less suspicious, and might distract the opponent(s) to attack his well protected feet instead of other possible weak spots, thus wasting one attack opportunity.

Possibly... but what about the metal studs/rivets on his nose/face?

[Jochi]

OK, nobody is pointing this out, which surprises me.
Kore does not have the full powers of a paladin. He cannot Detect Evil. He is, in his own mad way, REASONING that Durkon is evil, and that his whole tribe must be. If he were an unfallen paladin, he would KNOW whether Forgath or anyone else were evil. No matter how THunt may have houseruled things -- and I point out that Ears knew immediately that every member of the Brassmoon Guard was evil, at least every member he had seen. And that makes me think, what have we SEEN Kore do that was incontrovertibly a Paladin power? He has some kind of healing he calls Lay on Hands, but that's not exclusively a paladin power. The only evidence we can't argue with is that the Axe passed through him. It may be that he IS a paladin as far as the Axe is concerned. We don't know that a fallen paladin would lose his or her immunity to the Axe, or that the Axe couldn't exempt other people for its own purposes. What we do know, now, for sure, is that Kore can't Detect Evil, and therefore has to use his fallible mortal judgement on whether someone or something is evil -- and is getting it wrong.
I started playing D&D a year or so before AD&D (what you youngsters call First Edition) came out. Paladins were ill-defined then, mentioned in the Greyhawk supplement as "Fighters who have always been Lawful". Back then, Law and Good were considered synonymous, as were Chaos and Evil, and Fighters were human. Dwarf and Elf were other character CLASSES. That became looser with 1st and later 2nd Edition, dwarves and elves had some freedom to choose classes, but paladins were still always human. It wasn't until 3rd edition that you could even HAVE a dwarven paladin under RAW (Rules As Written). And, on comparative reading of the rules, I am forced to admit something else. Under 1st or 2nd Edition, a paladin that knowingly and willingly commits evil loses his paladin powers forever, and if he or she does it unknowingly or under mind control, an atonement (spell AND actions specified by the priest casting the spell) was required to regain them. Under the later editions, knowingly and willingly committing evil required atonement, but mind-controlled actions are not spelled out. I think this is yet another step away from the old days where DMs were encouraged to use the rules in an adversarial manner against the players, a holdover from the wargaming culture D&D came from, and I applaud it, and while *I* would deny a paladin the use of divinely-granted powers at least for the duration of the mind control, I have to grudgingly admit that it would not necessarily be a break with RAW to rule differently. I'd say there's even room for THunt to be a bit flexible in deciding which powers Kore can still use and which ones he can't, based partly on how exclusively they belong to the Paladin class.

[MakesNoSense]

OK, nobody is pointing this out, which surprises me.
Kore does not have the full powers of a paladin. He cannot Detect Evil. He is, in his own mad way, REASONING that Durkon is evil, and that his whole tribe must be. If he were an unfallen paladin, he would KNOW whether Forgath or anyone else were evil. No matter how THunt may have houseruled things -- and I point out that Ears knew immediately that every member of the Brassmoon Guard was evil, at least every member he had seen. And that makes me think, what have we SEEN Kore do that was incontrovertibly a Paladin power? He has some kind of healing he calls Lay on Hands, but that's not exclusively a paladin power. The only evidence we can't argue with is that the Axe passed through him. It may be that he IS a paladin as far as the Axe is concerned. We don't know that a fallen paladin would lose his or her immunity to the Axe, or that the Axe couldn't exempt other people for its own purposes. What we do know, now, for sure, is that Kore can't Detect Evil, and therefore has to use his fallible mortal judgement on whether someone or something is evil -- and is getting it wrong.
I started playing D&D a year or so before AD&D (what you youngsters call First Edition) came out. Paladins were ill-defined then, mentioned in the Greyhawk supplement as "Fighters who have always been Lawful". Back then, Law and Good were considered synonymous, as were Chaos and Evil, and Fighters were human. Dwarf and Elf were other character CLASSES. That became looser with 1st and later 2nd Edition, dwarves and elves had some freedom to choose classes, but paladins were still always human. It wasn't until 3rd edition that you could even HAVE a dwarven paladin under RAW (Rules As Written). And, on comparative reading of the rules, I am forced to admit something else. Under 1st or 2nd Edition, a paladin that knowingly and willingly commits evil loses his paladin powers forever, and if he or she does it unknowingly or under mind control, an atonement (spell AND actions specified by the priest casting the spell) was required to regain them. Under the later editions, knowingly and willingly committing evil required atonement, but mind-controlled actions are not spelled out. I think this is yet another step away from the old days where DMs were encouraged to use the rules in an adversarial manner against the players, a holdover from the wargaming culture D&D came from, and I applaud it, and while *I* would deny a paladin the use of divinely-granted powers at least for the duration of the mind control, I have to grudgingly admit that it would not necessarily be a break with RAW to rule differently. I'd say there's even room for THunt to be a bit flexible in deciding which powers Kore can still use and which ones he can't, based partly on how exclusively they belong to the Paladin class.

Well, first of all Durkon is from OOTS (just ribbing you a little for the mistake, all in good fun)

Second of all, I would suggest that Kore explained this to the audience when he killed the young dwarf that Hawl cared for. He clearly defined that he knew that the child was not evil, but having been in contact with evil creatures who did not treat him harshly at all times, he could potentially have sympathy for evil creatures in the future and as such, the "seed" for "potential evil" was already implanted in the child, and Kore saw it as his duty to slay not only everything "evil" but "potentially evil".

I suppose that someone could argue that taking such a view is evil, but, the moral debate aside, I do not believe that we KNOW that Kore does not possess the ability to detect evil. All we know is that Kore has his own standard for what he considers "evil" which includes "a seed for potential evil". It is entirely possible that his "detect evil" ability does not detect the seed, thus letting him ignore the "not evil" readings.

[Sogono]

(...) REASONING that Durkon is evil, (...)

This is not the dwarf you are looking for!

[RocketScientist]

And anyway, right now Durkon *is* evil.

edit: Also, I don't think we know whether or not Kore can detect evil.

P.S. Once the original Unearthed Arcana came out, half elves could be paladins. They got unicorn steeds, IIRC.

[Jochi]

Dagnabbit. I can only claim fatigue and encroaching senility. And I KNOW I corrected that. Must have done it twice and corrected it once.
Anyway, Kore is not now saying "a dwarf child unfortunately infected with evil", he is saying "an evil dwarf". He isn't accusing Forgath of being "infected" or even "exposed", he's accusing him of being Evil. He is insane, or he is being guided into these thought patterns by whatever is riding him (figuratively or literally on top of his head -- although I like the idea someone had in the other thread of large parts of his head being transparent.) Or both. He may well have developed this whole "being exposed / in contact with Evil will cause you to become Evil" because he knows that's what happened to HIM, that he fell to some beguiling temptation and lost his powers, and has, as many have suggested, been granted or developed compensating abilities or resources. But he is determining Evil by his reasoning, flawed as it is, and that means he does not have that particular (supernatural or spell-like? I'll look it up later) ability to just KNOW.
At least, that's MY reasoning, I don't KNOW. And we've seen the power of my mind already today.

[Krulle]

this has been mentioned before:
maybe Kore's Detect Evil works fine, but the armour is "enchanted" and pure evil, and as Kore sees everything though the armour, he only sees evil....

[YardMeat]

OK, nobody is pointing this out, which surprises me.
Kore does not have the full powers of a paladin. He cannot Detect Evil.

He hasn't used it, but we don't know that he *cannot* use Detect Evil.

He is, in his own mad way, REASONING that Durkon is evil, and that his whole tribe must be. If he were an unfallen paladin, he would KNOW whether Forgath or anyone else were evil. No matter how THunt may have houseruled things --

He is also under the effect of a curse, which could be at the heart of why he is not using detect evil. We know he doesn't care all that much, since he is equally willing to eliminate potential evil. He was perfectly aware that the Bladebeard kid wasn't evil, after all.

and I point out that Ears knew immediately that every member of the Brassmoon Guard was evil, at least every member he had seen. And that makes me think, what have we SEEN Kore do that was incontrovertibly a Paladin power? He has some kind of healing he calls Lay on Hands, but that's not exclusively a paladin power.

I think Thunt has stated that Kore is a core paladin, at least according to many forumites.

The only evidence we can't argue with is that the Axe passed through him. It may be that he IS a paladin as far as the Axe is concerned. We don't know that a fallen paladin would lose his or her immunity to the Axe, or that the Axe couldn't exempt other people for its own purposes.

That seems like a really big stretch, and some really misleading storytelling. And keep in mind he can't just be a fallen paladin; a fallen paladin wouldn't be able to use lay on hands, unless he became a Blackguard. This would also be a huge oversight on the part of the Axe's creators. They would practically be begging for their creation to fall into the wrong hands.

What we do know, now, for sure, is that Kore can't Detect Evil, and therefore has to use his fallible mortal judgement on whether someone or something is evil -- and is getting it wrong.

Again, we don't know for sure that he can't, we just know that he hasn't. Even if he can't, that doesn't mean he isn't a paladin. Many of us have suspected that the curse has impaired his ability to detect evil.

while *I* would deny a paladin the use of divinely-granted powers at least for the duration of the mind control, I have to grudgingly admit that it would not necessarily be a break with RAW to rule differently. I'd say there's even room for THunt to be a bit flexible in deciding which powers Kore can still use and which ones he can't, based partly on how exclusively they belong to the Paladin class.

It's certainly up to him, and there may be flexibility in the rules when it comes to unwilling and unknowing acts of evil. Whatever is going on, I'm sure it has something to do with the curse. And personally, not that it matters, I'd be really disappointed if the answer to this mystery was, "He's not a paladin after all."

[MakesNoSense]

I'm guessing this was probably discussed at the time (before I joined the forum) but what were the speculations for the reasons why Kore attacked Minmax and Forgath? It might be somewhat relevant to the current discussion.

Based upon observation, Kore would only know that two people appeared to attack the goblins (who default as evil to Kore). Since Kore does not seem have any prior knowledge of either Forgath or Minmax, why would he attack adventurers who are performing "good" actions? Might this be an argument that Kore does possess a "detect evil" ability? Where "evil" is not defined by some external force (such as the reader or even the "world") but is instead defined relative to the perception of the individual?

As such, the friendly (and for Minmax, more) feelings Minmax and Forgath have developed for Kin, not to mention Forgath's healing of a goblin, the combined efforts of the two killing a Ranger in Brassmoon, etc.... would classify them as "evil" in the view of Kore. Kore references the child (I think we can safely assume it was the child anyways) as "evil" in the most recent strip, and refers to Forgath (and Minmax) as evil... but he had no empirical evidence, nor was there a logical argument (even from what we can deduce is the twisted logic of Kore) for considering either Forgath or Minmax evil.

Could this be a suggestion that Kore really DOES have a "detect evil" skill? One which detects "evil" as it is understood by Kore - all of the 'evil' races/actions and anyone tolerant of any of those races/actions.

I have been at a loss to understand Kore's initial volley upon Minmax and Forgath aside from the "this Kore guy is totally nuts, he just wants an excuse to kill everyone" argument.

[YardMeat]

I'm guessing this was probably discussed at the time (before I joined the forum) but what were the speculations for the reasons why Kore attacked Minmax and Forgath? It might be somewhat relevant to the current discussion.

There was, and I think the general assumption was that MM and Forgath were just in his way . . . or that he's just that bonkers.

Based upon observation, Kore would only know that two people appeared to attack the goblins (who default as evil to Kore). Since Kore does not seem have any prior knowledge of either Forgath or Minmax, why would he attack adventurers who are performing "good" actions?

It could just be that there were blocking his shot and he wasn't actually aiming for them. After he started shooting, however, and MM was hit, they started working with the goblins to open the gate.

Might this be an argument that Kore does possess a "detect evil" ability? Where "evil" is not defined by some external force (such as the reader or even the "world") but is instead defined relative to the perception of the individual?

I don't think it is going to end up being as complicated as that. Evil is definitely an external force in D&D and, though Thunt may change things however he wants, I don't think he has here. I think it is far more likely that Kore's detect evil ability is impacted by his curse, and now he sees practically everyone/everything as evil.

That was actually my initial assumption, but he seemed to understand that the dwarven kid wasn't evil (he just had the "seed"), so I gave up on that assumption. But in the most recent comic, he seems to be calling that same dwarven child evil rather than just having the potential for evil. So . . . I guess I'm back to the theory that Kore's detect evil is broken.

As such, the friendly (and for Minmax, more) feelings Minmax and Forgath have developed for Kin, not to mention Forgath's healing of a goblin, the combined efforts of the two killing a Ranger in Brassmoon, etc.... would classify them as "evil" in the view of Kore.

It could be, but that seems unnecessarily complex. I think the solution is probably simpler than Kore's detect evil ability turning into a "what alignment would I classify these guys as, according to my own personal and subjective philosophy, if I had more information about their recent actions and associations" ability.

Kore references the child (I think we can safely assume it was the child anyways) as "evil" in the most recent strip, and refers to Forgath (and Minmax) as evil...

I think that's the biggest catch. After I'm done responding, I think I'm going to go back to the original page and see if Thunt has made any changes, but Kore did not originally call the kid evil. He just said he had the potential for evil.

but he had no empirical evidence, nor was there a logical argument (even from what we can deduce is the twisted logic of Kore) for considering either Forgath or Minmax evil.

Could this be a suggestion that Kore really DOES have a "detect evil" skill? One which detects "evil" as it is understood by Kore - all of the 'evil' races/actions and anyone tolerant of any of those races/actions.

Maybe, but wouldn't that just a a "detect personal assumptions" ability? Wouldn't that be like having the "ability" to detect whether or not you like the taste of your beer?

I have been at a loss to understand Kore's initial volley upon Minmax and Forgath aside from the "this Kore guy is totally nuts, he just wants an excuse to kill everyone" argument.

The only other thing I can think of is that he was shooting at the goblins and didn't care that MM and Forgath where between his crossbows and his targets. But crazy seems like a good bet.

Edit: Okay, Thunt hasn't made any changes to the original page, but I was wrong. He never says that the kid is not evil, only potentially evil. He thinks of potential evil as being a kind of actual evil: "All evil, even potential evil, must be eradicated." That, combined with the most recent page, seals it for me. He thought of the kid as evil.

[MakesNoSense]

Well... I do understand the reasoning of how the D&D world works... but, I will explain why I think there is a potential for more in Thunt's world.

The comic started MM and Forgath as being players in a D&D campaign, where they were "good" aligned. They needed to go find "evil" things to kill. This was the "D&D world" working - "these things are evil because that is their nature." Kore seems to have that same black and white, by the book definitions of alignment.

But, the story is about "goblins". More specifically, the world through their eyes. They don't use the items in the poorly guarded treasure chest, because of their traditions, not because of any reason that "makes sense". Which means that they are also supposed to be seen to the world, by that same tradition, as "evil". That is why they have warcamps where adventurers can go kill them. Goblins in this world are not "supposed" to take adventuring levels - its seen as obscene and perverse. Thus, even though the "rules" of the world have changed in a literal sense, the people in the world have not. So while a goblin is not bound by the "rules" to be evil any longer, the world at large is unable to accept that. The commonly accepted definition of "good" would not tolerate that "evil".

With the exception of Forgath, the other player characters seem to be built around that older style world. Minmax begins as nothing more than a bunch of stats designed to munchkin the game. The three drow represent the total lack of imagination put in to create a "real person" in the "campaign world". Instead, they are a cheap rip-off of other concepts designed to put a thin veil of "character" over the stats.

I have sort of envisioned this story as how it might have been run as an actual campaign. It seemed like there were 5 permanent/original players, with a 6th temporary/late addition to the group. Each one had their "typical D&D" character, and got to listen to the story of the goblin warcamp. From there, after the massacre, they were all given a "goblin" to play. The GAP would be the original group of 5 who played Minmax, Forgath and the 3 drow. The other one plays Dies and later on gets to join in the other side of the campaign with Kin. Everyone else is an NPC.

The story has been as much about the growth of Minmax into a role-player, as it has been about the goblins or anything else.

So what is left from a story-telling point of view, is Kore, the scourge of the realms. Kore is that last remnant of the "old rules". He is there to eliminate all of the "evil", big or small. Not because of the specific "evil" it has done, but in the name of the "evil" it might do. The elimination of Kore, would free the world from the "old rules" and open the door for the "new rules" to be more widely accepted. As such, Kore could almost be a characterized embodiment of the old rules, and as such, his "detect evil" ability could operate under those particular parameters. Even if the world has now changed, enough so that not only can goblins be something other than evil, but you can even have goblin paladins. Including goblin paladins who take the favourite ultimate magical item of good.

This certainly does not prove anything in the slightest, I'm just speculating on the story behind the scenes.

I wonder if Kore's curse has anything to do with the changing/updating of D&D rules. Is that why he would see it as a blessing? Why others see it as a curse? Is the curse that he is bound to the "old rules", which allows him to min-max and munchkin his way in the world? I mean, the shield on rails... the maximized beyond practical engineering crossbows... Kore seems to be an NPC version of the 'munchkin'. The ultimate goal of what Minmax would have wanted to be when he first started adventuring. As such, if Kore was munchkined (especially from a previous edition), who knows how those Paladin abilities would work as a result.

[YardMeat]

This certainly does not prove anything in the slightest, I'm just speculating on the story behind the scenes.

As we all are. Personally, I don't think that the explanation is going to be that meta, though I'm sure most of my own explanations will be even further from the truth.

I think it is safe to assume that Kore is the sole paladin to survive the events of the Axe's creation, and that the answer to his paladin mystery obviously has something to do with his curse. Everything else will just have to be fun guesswork. I'm sticking to the idea that the demon imprisoned in the Axe is the one who cursed him; if Kore were to ever claim the Axe, it would lead (in my theory) to the demon's escape. Either that, or the curse/blessing came directly from the paladins and clerics themselves, as part of the forbidden magic we were told about. I'm kinda holding out for a mostly translucent head that marks him as being claimed by the demon. It's extremely unlikely, but demonically lobotomized, jello-brain Kore would be a fun sight.

[YardMeat]

Yes, we had that before.
But can a Golem or otherwise constructed Being cast spells?

Thunt's setting has weird sorta-construct type beings like the Goblins Slayer and Saral Caine. I mentioned a while back that Kore may have been part of their old part, and that he's partially metallic just as GS is part wood and SC is part . . . stone . . . I think? I don't think that's the case anymore, but maybe it will turn out that old me was right.

[MakesNoSense]

This certainly does not prove anything in the slightest, I'm just speculating on the story behind the scenes.

As we all are. Personally, I don't think that the explanation is going to be that meta, though I'm sure most of my own explanations will be even further from the truth.

I think it is safe to assume that Kore is the sole paladin to survive the events of the Axe's creation, and that the answer to his paladin mystery obviously has something to do with his curse. Everything else will just have to be fun guesswork. I'm sticking to the idea that the demon imprisoned in the Axe is the one who cursed him; if Kore were to ever claim the Axe, it would lead (in my theory) to the demon's escape. Either that, or the curse/blessing came directly from the paladins and clerics themselves, as part of the forbidden magic we were told about. I'm kinda holding out for a mostly translucent head that marks him as being claimed by the demon. It's extremely unlikely, but demonically lobotomized, jello-brain Kore would be a fun sight.

Yeah, in terms of the character, I had a post (in another thread maybe? Dont remember where I posted it) about how I see Kore being the last Paladin and his curse/blessing coming from the axe. My last post was more about me speculating from a story-telling perspective, how does Kore fit into the world. What is his purpose for the story.

[Zathyr]

Yes, we had that before.
But can a Golem or otherwise constructed Being cast spells?

Thunt's setting has weird sorta-construct type beings like the Goblins Slayer and Saral Caine. I mentioned a while back that Kore may have been part of their old part, and that he's partially metallic just as GS is part wood and SC is part . . . stone . . . I think? I don't think that's the case anymore, but maybe it will turn out that old me was right.

Saral had some stone giant blood. Whatever kind of graft Goblinslayer had was something else - all we know is that it was done with magic. I suppose Saral's bloodline could've been magically manipulated as well, like K'sellis reportedly had been. I don't think any of them are really construct-like though. Well, maybe GS.
Hard to day.

As for constructs casting spells, it's possible if they're designed to do so. For example, there are Warforged in the setting, which are living constructs that can take class levels just like other player races.

[HyoorDuke]

The idea that Kore is a vessel being filled to the brink with souls - neutral, good, whatever - that are manifested as being chained to him, and are being stored so that the demon inside the Axe of Prissan can use those souls to break itself free, seems to be a pretty good hypothesis to me. We definitely don't know why Kin might be a key to this overall puzzle, but it seems more and more as if Kore is connected in a very close way to the Axe of Prissan. (S)He might not even need to be the last paladin that helped to secure the Axe - although that would make for more dramatic storytelling - but, rather, a related Dwarf to that last Paladin, under a curse by the demon to gather souls to break it free.

[Makes Noises]

I think it is safe to assume that Kore is the sole paladin to survive the events of the Axe's creation, and that the answer to his paladin mystery obviously has something to do with his curse.

I'm not sure it's safe to assume Kore is more than a 1000 years old. I'd imagine a 1000 years of hard-koring would be enough to leave the realm empty of all life. After all, all life has a potential to evil... so essentially it is evil, amirite?

[YardMeat]

I'm not sure it's safe to assume Kore is more than a 1000 years old. I'd imagine a 1000 years of hard-koring would be enough to leave the realm empty of all life. After all, all life has a potential to evil... so essentially it is evil, amirite?

Well, we know for sure that Kore is cursed and is the last of the Greyhill Paladins, and that the Greyhill Paladins are important enough to Thuntverse that they warrant a place on his map, even though Kore is the last one and he lives a pretty travel-heavy life. We also know for sure that the paladins involved with the Axe's creations dabbled in forbidden magic and that only one of them survived. Combine that with the fact that Thunt has kept the identity of the Axe's first owner a secret, despite going into great detail regarding other owners, and the fact that Kore has encountered at least one owner of the Axe in the past and seems a little obsessed with it . . . it could be that they are two different Axe-associated, forbidden-magic-related, last-of-their-kind paladins, but that would leave an awful lot of of Checkov's guns lying around unused.