A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

[thinkslogically]

Argh! I couldn't stay away!

Spoiler prediction 2:

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See, I reckon that Jon is definitely dead. BUT he's a shifter and we already know that shifters can send their souls into their animal companions to continue living as a dual entity (I don't think the hawk guy would have got as much page time if he wasn't foreshadowing something) and I am desperately hoping for a series of Ghost chapters. I cannot express how much I hope that will happen!

[Rogbull]

Reaction to Thinklogically's second prediction:

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I can see that happening, perhaps it was his destiny even and will be what finaly gives a voice or whatever you call howling to Ghost ( Who knows to what extend )

[Prometheus]

This series started out amazingly, it has deep characters, rich history, a Tolkien setting. It starts out as one of the greatest works of fiction of all time. And then something happened: the true tragedy of the series isn't in the words, it's between the lines. Perhaps i'm the only one who feels uncomfortable at the vague sexism written into Sansa, into Caitlyn, into Cersei. Perhaps i'm the only one who grows increasingly annoyed by Jon Snow's Mary Sue development and progression. But i can't be the only who who feels like Martin destroys beloved characters merely to keep readers coming back. With dance of dragons especially it feels like he has killed off key characters and doesn't know how to get his story back on track. Or perhaps he's just a prolific writer who doesn't realize when something is utterly uninteresting to read. Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons should have been a single book, they would have been far, far more interesting, they would have contained less mind-numbingly boring exposition.

All of that said, i'm undoubtedly going to read the next book and pray that he fixes Tyrion, that Dany does something with her life, that Jon and Arya develop the way i want.

Who agrees with me? Who disagrees? Why?

And as always, thanks for being awesome. (i know you're awesome, because you clearly like goblins as much as i do)

[TinSoldier]

This series started out amazingly, it has deep characters, rich history, a Tolkien setting. It starts out as one of the greatest works of fiction of all time.

I agree. In some ways I think that the world of Westeros is even richer than Middle Earth. You get a real feeling that the world existed before you started reading and that it will continue on afterwards. While Tolkien has a rich mythology woven into his world, the myths, legends, and religions feel much more a part of Westeros than apart from it. If that makes any sense.

And then something happened: the true tragedy of the series isn't in the words, it's between the lines. Perhaps i'm the only one who feels uncomfortable at the vague sexism written into Sansa, into Caitlyn, into Cersei. Perhaps i'm the only one who grows increasingly annoyed by Jon Snow's Mary Sue development and progression. But i can't be the only who who feels like Martin destroys beloved characters merely to keep readers coming back.

I don't know about the sexism, it's kinda part and parcel to the "gritty, pseudo-Medieval setting". You can especially see that in how Brienne gets treated.

I'm not sure what you mean with regards to Catelyn though?

With dance of dragons especially it feels like he has killed off key characters and doesn't know how to get his story back on track. Or perhaps he's just a prolific writer who doesn't realize when something is utterly uninteresting to read. Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons should have been a single book, they would have been far, far more interesting, they would have contained less mind-numbingly boring exposition.

I agree especially with the bit that I emphasized up above. I haven't read "A Dance With Dragons" yet, but I remember being quite unhappy with "A Feast For Crows" and its seemingly aimless meandering. It's like he painted his plotlines into the corner and can't figure out how to continue on to some kind of resolution of some of them.

Originally Feast and Dance were supposed to be one book, but he just couldn't stop writing and it got to be too long. Then after he split it up he had to go back and change a lot of stuff (and probably add even more).

[WastesTime]

I might be a little slow, but have you ever noticed how Stark and Lannister are similar names to York and Lancaster? Furthermore, the Lancastrians were "the baddies" in a way, they deposed Richard II, and established their House, while the House of York's claim was stronger and more justified. Margaret of Anjou (Lancasters) is described as having an "ill-judging enmity toward York" which brought about her downfall. Of course, there are a lot (I mean A LOT) of differences but still... could Martin somehow (intentionally or not) stylize the Houses on the Wars of The Roses period? What do you think?

[lingrem]

I might be a little slow, but have you ever noticed how Stark and Lannister are similar names to York and Lancaster? Furthermore, the Lancastrians were "the baddies" in a way, they deposed Richard II, and established their House, while the House of York's claim was stronger and more justified. Margaret of Anjou (Lancasters) is described as having an "ill-judging enmity toward York" which brought about her downfall. Of course, there are a lot (I mean A LOT) of differences but still... could Martin somehow (intentionally or not) stylize the Houses on the Wars of The Roses period? What do you think?

Oh yaeh I think it's influenced by it. But then again... everything's influenced by something or another

[TinSoldier]

Martin has stated that he was directly inspired by the Wars of the Roses, so it's not exactly a coincidence.

[John]

Martin has stated that he was directly inspired by the Wars of the Roses, so it's not exactly a coincidence.

Your avatar scares me for some reason

[TinSoldier]

Martin has stated that he was directly inspired by the Wars of the Roses, so it's not exactly a coincidence.

Your avatar scares me for some reason

As well it should.

Are you my mummy?

[thinkslogically]

And then something happened: the true tragedy of the series isn't in the words, it's between the lines. Perhaps i'm the only one who feels uncomfortable at the vague sexism written into Sansa, into Caitlyn, into Cersei. Perhaps i'm the only one who grows increasingly annoyed by Jon Snow's Mary Sue development and progression. But i can't be the only who who feels like Martin destroys beloved characters merely to keep readers coming back.

The 'vague' sexism? I'm not sure what you mean with regards to those three characters? The sexism in the books is obvious enough that it beats you around the head constantly (is there an unnamed woman in a scene? Better believe that she's either a whore, being shagged, or has children), but the protagonist women are the most interesting I think and the three you mention are three of my favourites as strong females in the book. Arya and Brienne are 'strong' in their own way, but they are strong by denying their sex (and emulating men). Sansa, Caitlyn and Cersei by contrast have to be feminine and yet still find a way to survive in spite of that.

Some thoughts (directed at the notion of sexism in general and in the books):

Sansa believed she was a fairytale princess whose sole life aim was to become a wife and mother to a shining white knight or prince. She has had her expectations repeatedly destroyed and is only now learning how to stand on her own feet. When Sansa's story is finished I expect her to be stronger than any of them. Broken-hearted maybe, but strong.

Caitlyn is a mother who for the most part wants to go home and be with her children. Is that sexist? Or the legitimate desires of an aging woman who already lived through one war and almost lost everything? Why shouldn't she desire the peace of a quiet family life? And for that matter, why should family and motherhood be ever be 'weak' choices?

Cersei is an absolute bitch, but does the wrong things for the right reasons (her children). She often complains that she should have been born a man, and I think a lot of her story comes from the fact that she has always been sidelined in favour of her brothers. Even Tyrion got more respect than she did from their father (when he was named as Hand for example). She is neither as cool-minded as Tyrion nor physically strong like Jaime, so who does she get to be? In a court full of men how CAN she have a place beyond being the mother of the king?

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I will give you Jon Snow though - his progression is somewhat unlikely, though again you need to bear in mind that amongst all of the other Night's Watch who are rapists, murderers, thieves, bandits and the rest, he is the only one who appears to have gone their willingly, as the (bastard) son of a lord, with all the arms- and book-learning that would have gone with it. So yes, he's young and unlikely, but he is at least competent. His faults I think are mostly his youth.

Regarding the length, I can see what you mean there as well. The books are long and there's not a lot going on for long periods, but I really love Martin's style of writing and actually really enjoy just immersing myself in his work, even if it's just a description of a street market or something

[Arydra]

Argh! I couldn't stay away!

Spoiler prediction 2:

► Show Spoiler

See, I reckon that Jon is definitely dead. BUT he's a shifter and we already know that shifters can send their souls into their animal companions to continue living as a dual entity (I don't think the hawk guy would have got as much page time if he wasn't foreshadowing something) and I am desperately hoping for a series of Ghost chapters. I cannot express how much I hope that will happen!

This is how I see it:

► Show Spoiler

If you remember he tried to pull something similar with Theon's sister halfway through the book, only to reveal later that she was not dead. So I think something similar is going to happen to John. My bet is on Wildlings or someone along those lines saving him. That seems to be more what George RR Martin was going for. Plus as others were saying earlier, I also find it likely that Tyrion and Daenerys will get together in some fashion.

[someone]

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One of my favorite theories is that Jon is not the Bastard of Ned Stark but the child of his sister that got raped by the mad king, who happend to be.... Targaryen. As Daenerys is, and so he is her half brother and fit to marry her as is custom with the dragonlords.

[TinSoldier]

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Or that Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen were actually lovers instead of Lyanna being raped by Rhaegar, and that Jon is their son whom Ned promised Lyanna to care for on her death bed.

[Arydra]

That is interesting, never heard that one before.

[lingrem]

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It would make sense though, because Ned Stark just isn't really the sort of person who would have cheated on his wife. And Jon and Daenerys are the idealists left. And she does need two more riders!

[John]

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We have seen that Ned has lied to protect his family (swearing he lied about the Lannister incest and none of the children being Robert's). Would explain even more why he wouldn't want to talk about it. I had never thought of the theory but it seems equal parts twisty and romantic that I bet it's right. It's the only way I could ever embrace the political sense of Jon being on the throne.

[Wolfie]

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Or that Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen were actually lovers instead of Lyanna being raped by Rhaegar, and that Jon is their son whom Ned promised Lyanna to care for on her death bed.

I had this thought as well as I was reading the novels. It makes sense and is twisted enough that it is plausible by Martin's standards.

[lingrem]

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There's also the plot point that needs resolved by answer "Who is Jon's Mother"? And that is the most fitting answer really.

[WastesTime]

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There's also the plot point that needs resolved by answer "Who is Jon's Mother"? And that is the most fitting answer really.

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As for that, wasn't it said during one of Davos' chapters that Ned fathered a child on some daughter of a fisherman while she smuggled him during Robert's Rebellion? And it was then remarked by at least two characters that Jon haggles like a fisher folk and he was even asked if he wasn't fathered on some fisher woman.

[John]

I need to reread the books so I can start doing some smart spoiler posts

[lingrem]

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But without knowing her name or who she actually is, there just isn't any proof that it's a fisherwoman. It doesn't match Ned's personality!

[WastesTime]

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But without knowing her name or who she actually is, there just isn't any proof that it's a fisherwoman. It doesn't match Ned's personality!

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Oh, I guess that makes sense. If he truly is Lysanna's son, though...whew, Martin would officially be master of surprise. Anyway, please George, just let Stannis win! As much as I like Daenerys, I want Stannis seated on the Iron Throne! He is by far the best candidate. Batman of Westeros

[John]

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Oh, I guess that makes sense. If he truly is Lysanna's son, though...whew, Martin would officially be master of surprise. Anyway, please George, just let Stannis win! As much as I like Daenerys, I want Stannis seated on the Iron Throne! He is by far the best candidate. Batman of Westeros

If Batman started listening to a disciple of Dormammu....

[WastesTime]

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Oh, I guess that makes sense. If he truly is Lysanna's son, though...whew, Martin would officially be master of surprise. Anyway, please George, just let Stannis win! As much as I like Daenerys, I want Stannis seated on the Iron Throne! He is by far the best candidate. Batman of Westeros

If Batman started listening to a disciple of Dormammu....

He still has his Alfred in the form of

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Davos

[John]

John is more a Batman. He has his Alfred in either Delourious Ed (spelling?) or Sam Tarly. And Ghost is like his Robin.... or batmobile

That would make Victarion Greyjoy Aquaman