26th May 2013: Amazing

[Glemp]

iLink

So, it looks like things are going down from here...sorry.

Two things - first, why does unmaking existence require energy?

If anything, dissolving matter should be yielding huge amounts of energy. And if it's special 'never existed' dissolving, then why can't the energy released by the matter be funnelled into that? Boom, self-sustaining oblivion...or there's this pseudo-scientific explananation from a fellow poster, which sounds plausible (by virtue of mentioning quantum mechanics) enough that it may well be, and lets us relax and enjoy the show . Still, this leads to one conclusion: should Psimax die, then the machine will run out of power. And until then, his energy is diverted to keeping it going.

And second: grammatical fail in bottom-left panel. Unless this is some cool interface screw, where parts of the comic are dissolving as the events that they document are undone, which would be cool.

[Chasm]

Dissolving matter, for me, means unbinding every atom composing matter with eachother, which would require a really, really, really (...) monstruous amount of energy. Even by taking in account the fact that matter will "stop existing" and not dissolve, I guess it still takes much energy (maybe even more) to make non-existence appear, even a tiny one such as the one of the Maze, because non-existence, by definition, doesn't exist, thus contradicts every physical law that can apply in this universe.

I might get it wrong, though, I'm no physician, but that's what I think :o

[Alecat]

Don't think too hard about fantasy physics.

Fantasy maths, however? I'm surprised at Psymax's literalness. But it does remind me of a bogus proof we used one maths class to show 1=0. The teacher gave us the class off.

[langerhans]

where is our minmax in hte last panel? i can see him gripping one of the arms in bottom left.. but where does he go then?
..possibly into one of the flame towers?
edit: wait i see him, still on an arm just visible behind the blue smoke

also how does the tower head/windy arm thing keep descending when the arms get level with those towers?

[Glemp]

also how does the tower head/windy arm thing keep descending when the arms get level with those towers?

I think the arms'll retract, crushing anyone (read:minmax) holding onto that part of them.

[SamWiser]

As to where Minmax is, we see him fighting the ogremax (I can't remember what we were calling him). We also see ogremax falling in the last panel. He is now on the other side of the tower. That plus the inconsistency of the tower faces means that the arms are most likely spinning. Minmax would be on the other side of the tower right now.

[kida]

I have a problem with how many alts are still alive.
Assuming we started with ~600 alts.
We should assume at least half of them didn't make it to the tower room.
If everyone is fighting each other and killing half of the alts every 2nd round - we should be with 1 alt by round 16.
but the numbers of the halts stays more or less the same - doesn't seems reasonable.

[langerhans]

i'm not sure why psimax hasn't reappeared yet, isn't teleportation instant? or would he have gone somewhere else first?

I have a problem with how many alts are still alive.
Assuming we started with ~600 alts.
We should assume at least half of them didn't make it to the tower room.
If everyone is fighting each other and killing half of the alts every 2nd round - we should be with 1 alt by round 16.
but the numbers of the halts stays more or less the same - doesn't seems reasonable.

well there seem to be less fighting on the ground, also many of them may not be in constant combat, as they will spend a lot of time climbing, or otherwise not engaging the other alts

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

Fantasy maths, however? I'm surprised at Psymax's literalness. But it does remind me of a bogus proof we used one maths class to show 1=0. The teacher gave us the class off.

"We do not divide by zero in this house, young man!"

[friedkitty]

Fantasy maths, however? I'm surprised at Psymax's literalness. But it does remind me of a bogus proof we used one maths class to show 1=0. The teacher gave us the class off.

"We do not divide by zero in this house, young man!"

I have seen the 1=2 proof:
a = b
a squared = ab
a squared - b squared = ab-b squared
(a-b)(a+b) = b(a-b)
a+b = b
b+b = b
2b = b
2 = 1

Which is of course the same fallacy.

[RedwoodElf]

Dot trap looks a bit schkrewey to me. Hy em assumink dot ven de arms reach de towers, dey knock dem over for messiff flame based karnage on de floor uf de room. A trap vorddy uf Grimtooth de Troll!

[LooksAndSmiles]

I like how that tower suddenly becomes a giant meatgrinder with a simple screw mechanism...

[stevedj]

also how does the tower head/windy arm thing keep descending when the arms get level with those towers?

I think the arms'll retract, crushing anyone (read:minmax) holding onto that part of them.

Nah, too many "bumps" on the arms which would prevent retraction.

Instead, I expect those extended, and THIN, arms would just be sheared off as the spinning thing gets down to the fire columns... so yes, anyone out there is in trouble, soon...

[Marnath]

Wait, if the oblivion machine works by setting every variable to 1=0, the Kins should be able to use the gears to set "Kin156-tail splished=false" right?

[RJJ7]

Two things - first, why does unmaking existence require energy?

If anything, dissolving matter should be yielding huge amounts of energy. And if it's special 'never existed' dissolving, then the energy released by the matter should be funneled into that.

I question your reasoning. If the matter never existed, then how can we get energy from it? If all that is happening is that we are turning matter to energy, then it wouldn't be oblivion. Unmaking existence is not the same as unmaking matter. By the same token, I don't think that we can say definitely that obliviating matter gives us a vast amount of obliviating energy that we can use to obliviate more matter. There is no reason to suppose a corrolary to E=mc² when talking about removing things from existence.

Wait, if the oblivion machine works by setting every variable to 1=0, the Kins should be able to use the gears to set "Kin156-tail splished=false" right?

Sounds legit to me.

[Glemp]

Wait, if the oblivion machine works by setting every variable to 1=0, the Kins should be able to use the gears to set "Kin156-tail splished=false" right?

The Kins say that the machine affects universal constants. Something as complicated as making every atom from her tail go back exactly where it was- it'd be like building a sandcastle one speck of sand at a time. Or I suppose they could reverse time on them - in which case you'd have a fully-functional tail exactly where it was when it exploded.

[RJJ7]

Glemp, why do you hate kin?!?


(I kid; on a serious note, I actually think it would be dreadfully anti-climactic for Thunt to use such an easy work-around for such massive damage to a main character)

[Glemp]

Two things - first, why does unmaking existence require energy?

If anything, dissolving matter should be yielding huge amounts of energy. And if it's special 'never existed' dissolving, then the energy released by the matter should be funneled into that.

I question your reasoning. If the matter never existed, then how can we get energy from it? If all that is happening is that we are turning matter to energy, then it wouldn't be oblivion. Unmaking existence is not the same as unmaking matter. By the same token, I don't think that we can say definitely that obliviating matter gives us a vast amount of obliviating energy that we can use to obliviate more matter. There is no reason to suppose a corrolary to E=mc² when talking about removing things from existence.

The Kins say that turning the Maze into oblivion requires energy. I am asking why, if it has such control over physics, it cannot convert the matter it is obliterating into energy using E=mc², and use that to power the process.

[LooksAndSmiles]

Totally pseudo-scientific babble here:

Let's assume existence is connected to quantum-fields. Something "exists" if the particles in the quantum fields are reaching a certain density. Time does not exist, only the continous interaction between these particles, which is a bit too complex for the human brain that resolves this as a flow of actions (ie time). Unmaking the Maze is basically dissolving all this density of quantum. This process creates ripples in the quantum field (visible as oblivion holes), and as well translates to human minds as something "never existed" when it falls back into the evened out quantum field. This flattening requires energy, but since PsiMax understands that first making something to exist requires energy, he simply reverses the process, so the actual energy difference is 0.

Btw, the sentence goes "He is actually removing the paradoxical aspects of proving 1 = 0", which could be roughly translated that he eliminates the "human logic aspect", since that is a form of interaction between these quantum densities (the observer is not independent from the observed), so he basically just goes by the process described above.

On a more "serious" note, if pocket dimensions can be created via magic, they can be unmade via magic too. I don't think it's worth thinking too much about that, so just roll with whatever Thunt comes up with. Personally, if he writes "existence in this dimension is because of rabbits and PsiMax is creating a rabbit-killing mashine" I would accept that too.

[T' Northerner]

Not a cosmologist, so this is all vague (mis)understanding of the processes, but I think there is this idea that before the big-bang there was a sort of 'false vaccuum' , in a similar way to how a damn can create a false sea level. As this broke down, it released all the energy and caused the fundamental forces to stop being equal and stuff. Therefore, to uncreate the universe would indeed require a stonking amount of energy to rebuild said damn.

[BiggusGeekus]

Assuming a 'normal' dungeon crawl (e.g. one of the previous ~2 million failures) how was a non-flying party supposed to beat this thing? No ladder dropped down from the top, so did previous parties that got to the key first end up dying anyway?

Not that a lack of an egress for the winner would surprise me, I have a feeling that most of the time there are no parties that beat the Maze of Many.

[RJJ7]

It is assumed, from the riddles on the walls, that if you picked the correct key, the tower would screw out of the ground, raising the platform to the opening. That this didn't happen is because Minmax also selected the two wrong keys, which closed the top.

Not a cosmologist, so this is all vague (mis)understanding of the processes, but I think there is this idea that before the big-bang there was a sort of 'false vaccuum' , in a similar way to how a damn can create a false sea level. As this broke down, it released all the energy and caused the fundamental forces to stop being equal and stuff. Therefore, to uncreate the universe would indeed require a stonking amount of energy to rebuild said damn.

You're saying that Psimax needs to find someone who gives a damn?

(that's a joke, based on your using the word 'damn' when you should have been using the word 'dam' )

[Glemp]

Assuming a 'normal' dungeon crawl (e.g. one of the previous ~2 million failures) how was a non-flying party supposed to beat this thing? No ladder dropped down from the top, so did previous parties that got to the key first end up dying anyway?

You make one.

"I stand here on the shoulders of giants! And dwarves. And halfblood snake people. And goblins, and humans, and oh look, a kobold..."

[SamWiser]

You make one.

"I stand here on the shoulders of giants! And dwarves. And halfbloods snake people. And goblins, and humans, and oh look, a kobold..."

That is one of the best quotes ever.

[willpell]

Kudos to everyone who correctly guessed that we were going to see the tower begin spinning down and crushing people and possibly knocking the flame towers over...it seems you're already at least partly right, and possibly about to get righter....