May 10th, 2013 tok

[cyco]

"Also, not that I think it's true, but it would be funny if 156 was NOT our reality, and it's our reality (which is nearly identical) showing up. But I think the fandom would revolt."

Damn, THAT would be a surprise!

[Knucklekraken]

Something that's been irking me since Oblivious first appeared is the forum's belief that Minmax can somehow pull himself through the time-hole, which to me is absurd.

1) Everyone assumes there's x time between when Minmax drops the sword and picks it up again, but it makes more sense, imo, that future Minmax would grab it IMMEDIATELY, and pull it away just as quickly. Even minmaxxed like he is, he doesn't have the reflexes to grab something that happens that quickly.

2) If he were somehow able to grab his future hand and pull himself through, how exactly would that work? Minmax 1 drops the sword, Minmax 2 (who is Minmax 1 of the very-near future) grabs the sword, MM1 grabs MM2, MM2 pulls MM1 through the hole.... Now where did MM2 come from? If MM1 skipped the time between when he dropped it and when he, as MM2, grabbed it, he wouldn't have lived up to that point to grab the sword at that exact moment. He can't just turn around and grab it again, because that would be a new point in time, and he can't really concoct with himself the idea to send MM1 back in time, because we would have witnessed that (he can't send himself back to a point between MM1 and MM2, because at that moment there would be no Minmax to drop Oblivious.

3) The entire reason Oblivious works and exists at all is because Minmax can't comprehend it. If this were my campaign, every time my Minmax intentionally dropped Oblivious only to immediately grab it in the new position (as he did here), I'd force the player to make an intelligence check to see if he figured out Oblivious too much for it to exist, adjusted for circumstance (this one would be incredibly easy to fail, because Minmax kind of understands that Oblivious can teleport). The player would have to FAIL the check for the sword to continue existing, and using the sword to time travel would absolutely be too much knowledge of what the sword is and does for the sword to exist.

It's exactly because the sword DOESN'T work like that that I'm so convinced it WOULD if Minmax tried it. Kin would be like, "But how did it open a hole when you weren't here to take it?" and Minmax would be all like, "Because I'm just that good," and it wouldn't make any sense but that's PERFECT. The sword becomes more powerful through ignorance, which says to me that ignorant acts are more likely than usual to be successful.

[Kore]

Resurrections are rare in this universe. The maze supposedly performs millions of resurrections as part or resetting. Therefore the maze of many is obviously not real, is a powerful mind trick. People can think live a "lifetime" in an illusion.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html

[EatsAPeach]

1. MinMax doesn't know it's impossible for him to stab PsiMax through the viewer, so he might do just that.
2. "Tok" might not be green to show IME - it might just be a random color.
3. In the previous panel, when Kin is yearning towards the arrow and Anymug, the walls don't meet in the corner. It's a hallway or niche, and someone must have been hiding there or just entered that way.
4. Nobody except MinMax is going to save Kin this time. He did not rage through an upside-down forest of burning trees to have it end this way.
5. There's not going to be a "good" Goblinslayer. We glimpsed a Kin with his treeface and powers, and she was transfigured with sneering hate, same as Dellyn. Whatever gave him his druid powers, it turned him crazy mean.
6. Knucklekraken is correct: "It's exactly because the sword DOESN'T work like that that I'm so convinced it WOULD if Minmax tried it." He and his sword are one; the sword of the samurai is the soul of the samurai. He is . . . Oblivious.

[Baeronvonbleat]

I have to disagree. Thunt takes the IME's seriously. The cup being used is blue, an inanimate object falling randomly is brown (I think it was a wooden board). If the IME is light green, it's because the person who dropped it has a light green IME.

And I'm fairly sure generic PC's get grey IME's (IE the One Winged Goblin Tribe). There are no random IME's.

[Occams Meataxe]

"If you think you're so awesome why don't you fight me?" only works when the other guy is interested in a d*ck-measuring contest. Psimax obviously isn't. He has more important things on his mind than a dwarf who will soon have never been.

[EatsAPeach]

Yeah, but is it an IME, or just a green sound effect? I guess right now Only Thunt Knows. I haven't watched closely enough to see if the sound effects follow the IME rules. BTW every good D&D-type game from now on ought to have IMEs IMHO.

Occam, I think he's just trying to keep PsychoMax from thinking about Kin so she can possibly get to the Anymug.

[Baeronvonbleat]

New note - While Forgath said "If you think you're so awesome..."

But PsiMax's belt doesn't say "I M Great" it says nothing....

Maybe if his belt had a little more self reassurance, he wouldn't have ended up this way.

[willpell]

It's exactly because the sword DOESN'T work like that that I'm so convinced it WOULD if Minmax tried it. Kin would be like, "But how did it open a hole when you weren't here to take it?" and Minmax would be all like, "Because I'm just that good," and it wouldn't make any sense but that's PERFECT. The sword becomes more powerful through ignorance, which says to me that ignorant acts are more likely than usual to be successful.

This does seem to be consistent with Herbert's DM style....

BTW every good D&D-type game from now on ought to have IMEs IMHO.

Yeah, Goblins is right up there with Order of the Stick and Darths and Droids (and to a lesser extent XKCD and Questionable Content) as a comic which has irrevocably altered my perception of what D&D or roleplaying in general should be....

[EatsAPeach]

http://www.goblinscomic.com/04232006/ The Anymug makes a blue sound effect as it bounces off Forgath.
http://www.goblinscomic.com/01282008/ This one clinches it for me - look at Dellyn's sound effect as he sets the bottle down. Someone with a green IME made the 'tok' sound. Pretty likely it's a Kin, and one of the ones that resembles our Kin. But there are other green IMEs so it's still a puzzle.

[Baeronvonbleat]

http://www.goblinscomic.com/04232006/ The Anymug makes a blue sound effect as it bounces off Forgath.
http://www.goblinscomic.com/01282008/ This one clinches it for me - look at Dellyn's sound effect as he sets the bottle down. Someone with a green IME made the 'tok' sound. Pretty likely it's a Kin, and one of the ones that resembles our Kin. But there are other green IMEs so it's still a puzzle.

Well, somewhere around Brassmoon, Thunt started applying a new effect, where an action from one character to another character created a "Fused" IME effect, mixing impact with the person who threw the item. In this case, Minimax threw the mug and Forgath was hit, creating a Purple to Blue fusion. But this comic happened prior to that transition, so I'd almost deem the Mug throw in this case a "Non-Canon IME".

If you look at the Kore fight with the Goblin crew, when Kore cuts off his beard, and throws it to the ground, the "Thupt" of the beard hitting the ground has his shattered/white IME effect.

[wonderdrow]

I haven't read through all the posts on this long thread.

But has anyone considered that it could be the alt-minmax-junior arm that survived after his minmax got ... uhm fertilized?
here : http://www.goblinscomic.com/03282013/

What ime would the alt-junior have after it separated?

Though I'm also assuming it will be one of the alt kin's they fought before.
An alt-kin would help her, for pitty's sake, and to learn about what happened to the key.

[Linkcharge]

Yeah. Funny idea, but it wouldn't work. It would undermine all the good character development we've had. I don't see how it could be done without seeming like a total letdown.

[SamWiser]

I have to disagree. Thunt takes the IME's seriously. The cup being used is blue, an inanimate object falling randomly is brown (I think it was a wooden board). If the IME is light green, it's because the person who dropped it has a light green IME.

And I'm fairly sure generic PC's get grey IME's (IE the One Winged Goblin Tribe). There are no random IME's.

I'm pretty sure that an object falling randomly would be the color of the object. That has seemed to be the pattern to me.

[YardMeat]

I'm just crossing my fingers that there is not another cut away at this point. I seriously doubt there will be, but there was a cut away the last time a story arc ended with an unseen visitor with a green IME. I'm working under the assumption that the person saying "Hello Names" and the person setting the anymug down in front of Kin are the same individual. I'm not great with colors, but they look like the same shade of green to me.

I doubt the person saying "Hello Names" is Kin, since she never called him that and has no reason to pick him out specifically. MM is the only one who refers to Complains by that name. When that comic first appeared, people were convinced that it was MM and that the green glow was caused by the Jade Teapot and not from someone's IME. However, when other magic items are used it looks like they adopt the user's IME. I'm still in the camp that says MM's IME has changed and that he's the one who set down the mug. I have no idea how he got to the room, but weirder things have happened in the comic with a text-comic coming later to explain just what happened.

The altkins seemed perfectly content to kill our Kin before, so I don't know why they would help her now. I find it easier to believe that MM was able to somehow use the sword to teleport than that one or all of the altkins managed to fight off the zombies, move the stone, and haul themselves up through the hole, and change their minds about killing Kin.

[Lee]

-snip-

The altkins seemed perfectly content to kill our Kin before, so I don't know why they would help her now. I find it easier to believe that MM was able to somehow use the sword to teleport than that one or all of the altkins managed to fight off the zombies, move the stone, and haul themselves up through the hole, and change their minds about killing Kin.

If the oblivion hole got larger, it could have destroyed the "stone" (or whatever MM used to block the hole) then the Alt-Kins could have tricked the zombies into the O-hole and climbed through to the treasure room level. Not the best but it's an option.

As to why they wouldn't kill our Kin right off, they may wish to keep her alive long enough to question her about A) how to get into the treasure room and B) (if they heard the commotion with PsiMax) they might like to know if said commotion had anything to do with getting into the treasure room.

[stevedj]

For all those theorists thinking that MM could somehow use the sword to transport himself -- here's an angle I just thought of. Note that I don't really think this would happen, and not sure I even believe it is possible (yes, I'm countering my own theory, ok?) but I throw this out here that maybe others will find something to build upon (or, well..., just for fun...)

Suppose next time MinMax lets go of Oblivion, as he sees his future self grabbing it, he also sees through the hole Kin injured on the ground. (Hey, we've seen other things behind the arm as it grabs the sword -- remember red-mask guy?). Anyway, MinMax thinks to himself -- if I can reach through to grab my sword, why couldn't I just reach out for Kin. So, he tries it -- reaches out, and voowp! -- he's in the room with Kin. (I know what you are saying - he isn't made of oblivion like the sword - but maybe he's been interacting with oblivion so much that something has sorta rubbed off onto MM -- and perhaps his own ignorance of how oblivion works is just enough that it works, too).

Then as PsiMax returns to the room, MinMax goes to attack, and reaches for Oblivion (thus completing the 'vision' portal that he saw from the Tower room, that started this sequence).

[EatsAPeach]

I notice that very few alt-Kins have a "KEN" necklace, so for them, meeting a MinMax who loves a Kin would be a revelation. I don't expect him to get a harem, but there may be a Kin who will be impressed enough to die defending them. None of the 'Three Kins' had necklaces.

[Rogbull]

Maybe most Minmax's didn't need to host a birthday to find a "normal" trait in her. I'm pretty sure most Minmax's think live mice are quite the treat!

[EatsAPeach]

It looks more like most of the time, they rescued her one way or another, then decided to work together. Sometimes Kin and MM seem intimate, and sometimes they seem like just co-workers, but some critical incident has only happened to our party. But some of them do have necklaces, meaning that even though they seem very different from our group, that birthday party must have happened.

[YardMeat]

If the oblivion hole got larger, it could have destroyed the "stone" (or whatever MM used to block the hole) then the Alt-Kins could have tricked the zombies into the O-hole and climbed through to the treasure room level. Not the best but it's an option.

As to why they wouldn't kill our Kin right off, they may wish to keep her alive long enough to question her about A) how to get into the treasure room and B) (if they heard the commotion with PsiMax) they might like to know if said commotion had anything to do with getting into the treasure room.

I can see all of those things as a possibility. My main reason for suspecting MM at this point is that I think we have already seen some hints that MM's IME has changed. MM and Forgath want to use the teapot to teleport to the GAP. At the end of the last GAP story arc, someone teleports in front of them; this person fixates on Complains of Names for some reason and refers to him as "Names" (MM fits the bill perfectly for both of these facts). The only thing that caused people to doubt this was MM was that the person had a green IME. It is pretty obvious the MM party will eventually win, escape the maze, and have the teapot in tow.

We know from an earlier comic that a person's IME is the "color of [their] soul" and we know from Kin that trueseeing involves "'seeing' each other's souls" and "to connect on a level" so deep that you "feel each other's pleasure and pain." MM seemed to have such a moment when Kin was attacked, and his purple IME disappeared when the seeing occurred. Whoever came to save her has the same green IME as the person who teleported to the GAP (as MM plans to do) and who refers to Complains of Names as "Names" (as MM does).

[DuIstalri]

Whoever came to save her has the same green IME as the person who teleported to the GAP.

While I like your idea, I have to point out that it's a very different shade of green, and it's quite likely the glow of them teleporting using the JADE teapot, instead of anyones I.M.E. I might be wrong, but I feel that whoever uses that teapot would create a green flash like that, from Not-Walter to Big Ears to Minmax.

[YardMeat]

While I like your idea, I have to point out that it's a very different shade of green, and it's quite likely the glow of them teleporting using the JADE teapot, instead of anyones I.M.E. I might be wrong, but I feel that whoever uses that teapot would create a green flash like that, from Not-Walter to Big Ears to Minmax.

I'm horrible with colors, especially green, so I will have to take your word for it. My problem with teapot theory, though, is that we've seen other magic items utilize the IME of their user (such as the +1 sword, Chief's spear, and the Axe). I don't think we have seen a magic item yet that has had a color independent of the IME of the user.

[DuIstalri]

Yeah, that's a good point, but when the colour of the item is in the name (I know jade is a material, but it's distinctive feature is it's name - it's name in some countries is literally GREENstone), I think that that item will be an exception to the rule. Like I said, could be wrong, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if that turns out to be the case.

[Jochi]

The 'tok' sound effect is so clearly Kin's gray-green and not any other shade that I think it has to be one of the KinTrio. Since it looks like two of them, Sapphire and Onyx, are the tiny figures in front of the blue door in the tower room, it has to be Ruby. She doesn't have to know the cup's contents are healing river water, just that Kin desperately wants it. Painkiller, sleep-inducer or poison would also be blessings at this point. But I think she knows it's healing water, and that defeating PsiMax has become a higher priority than winning the Maze.