Interesting theory about the GAP, FMK and Kore

[SamWiser]

I think the genocide and the sword to the eye have parts to play as well.

[Mytical]

Ok, I often have crazy theories, so hold on to your seat. Kore is like the terminator. By that I mean I think he is from a future time and found a way back..and there is a reason he wants all monsters dead. Because...a monster caused Minmax to die...not killed MM, but caused him to sacrifice his life for them...ie Kin got MM killed. Because..now hold onto your hats. Kore is Forgath (somebody else suggested this, and it makes a kind of crazy sense). Would explain his insanely high level..since Forgath is already a cleric..paladin is not that crazy.

Anyhow, Forgath does die..but not the Forgath from NOW, and he will die by another dwarfs hand...HIS OWN....

It also explains why Kore's face has never been seen. Because that would be a spoiler...

[boneguard]

I think the genocide and the sword to the eye have parts to play as well.

Well yes, their first encounter went...bad to say the least and Minmax lost an eye. So Complain and Minmax would not be all chummy, not for a long time if ever.

But if Kore sees Kin or 'smells' Kin upon Minmax and Forgath, he'll turn on them. so for the GAP and FMK it becomes a matter of: The Enemy of my Enemy is my temporary ally.

[CelineSSauve]

Ok, I often have crazy theories [...] Kore is Forgath

I don't see Herbert as the sort to have his party on rails. I mean, I think he's done wonderfully rolling with MinMax's relationship with Kin. And since Kore is already a part of the universe, that would be a serious case or rails, IMHO.

[Alvarin]

I think the genocide and the sword to the eye have parts to play as well.

Well yes, their first encounter went...bad to say the least and Minmax lost an eye. So Complain and Minmax would not be all chummy, not for a long time if ever.

But if Kore sees Kin or 'smells' Kin upon Minmax and Forgath, he'll turn on them. so for the GAP and FMK it becomes a matter of: The Enemy of my Enemy is my temporary ally.

Thunt has confirmed that Minmax has not lost the eye and can still see through it. It is just scarred.

[LordsBreed]

In light of the Recent update I've been thinking. "What if we had this encounter wrong?"

Granted we are assuming that it is Minmax and -considering the last Complain of Name Vs Minmax encounter- there was a lot of animosity between the two. But this most recent updates especially the final one is really showing Minmax growth and not seeing all monster as "To be killed" right of, but monster can be ally even friend.

Now, what if Minmax decid to let Bygone be Bygone and helps the GAP against Kore. Might mean the Death of Forgath, but it would be awesome to see.

How is this interesting?

[boneguard]

How is this interesting?

Because I said so. Of course

[Rorrik]

I think the genocide and the sword to the eye have parts to play as well.

Well yes, their first encounter went...bad to say the least and Minmax lost an eye. So Complain and Minmax would not be all chummy, not for a long time if ever.

But if Kore sees Kin or 'smells' Kin upon Minmax and Forgath, he'll turn on them. so for the GAP and FMK it becomes a matter of: The Enemy of my Enemy is my temporary ally.

Thunt has confirmed that Minmax has not lost the eye and can still see through it. It is just scarred.

Good to have that confirmed. I wonder every time I time I see his white pupil.

The future Forgath theory is a hard one to buy since Forgath is the one who was nearly convinced by the Goblin rescue. Forgath and Kore are like opposite people. So it might not be a stretch class wise, but it's a huge stretch as far as personality.

[Mytical]

I don't see Herbert as the sort to have his party on rails. I mean, I think he's done wonderfully rolling with MinMax's relationship with Kin. And since Kore is already a part of the universe, that would be a serious case or rails, IMHO.

Not necessarily, as time travel causes paradox issues. With foreknowledge of what he becomes, Forgath would have a chance to change his future. Creating yet another 'alternate universe'. With the introduction of MoM and alternate realities, this makes the chance more possible. But like I said...it is just a crazy theory .

[CelineSSauve]

I don't see Herbert as the sort to have his party on rails. I mean, I think he's done wonderfully rolling with MinMax's relationship with Kin. And since Kore is already a part of the universe, that would be a serious case or rails, IMHO.

Not necessarily, as time travel causes paradox issues. With foreknowledge of what he becomes, Forgath would have a chance to change his future. Creating yet another 'alternate universe'. With the introduction of MoM and alternate realities, this makes the chance more possible. But like I said...it is just a crazy theory .

Hmm. Maybe I didn't explain it correctly.

Mainly, if something that happens in the future causes Forgath to become Kore, and Kore has already been introduced into the world, then there's a set of rails somewhere.

But, yes, crazy.

I am looking forward to have the contradiction of Kore revealed, though. But I'm a (semi-)patient sort. I can wait for the story to reveal itself (but still feel impatient with the fact that my two lovely "dead tree editions" are sitting near all the current OOTS books and the first three LFG books).

[BeanDip]

I agree that when Kin hears that Minmax is after Names, she might realize they are the goblins who helped her and convince him otherwise.

Would Kin remember them as the Goblins who helped her or the Goblins that abandoned her?

[RocketScientist]

I agree that when Kin hears that Minmax is after Names, she might realize they are the goblins who helped her and convince him otherwise.

Would Kin remember them as the Goblins who helped her or the Goblins that abandoned her?

Probably helped, since she told Minmax and Forgath she'd recently met some Goblins who seemed pretty heroic. http://www.goblinscomic.com/05172010/

[Rorrik]

I don't see Herbert as the sort to have his party on rails. I mean, I think he's done wonderfully rolling with MinMax's relationship with Kin. And since Kore is already a part of the universe, that would be a serious case or rails, IMHO.

Not necessarily, as time travel causes paradox issues. With foreknowledge of what he becomes, Forgath would have a chance to change his future. Creating yet another 'alternate universe'. With the introduction of MoM and alternate realities, this makes the chance more possible. But like I said...it is just a crazy theory .

Whoa whoa whoa! Did you just propose the concept of more alternate realities being generated in the MoM, the place where alternate realities meet? I like it! Infinite branches joining in a single point in space and time where they can then branch infinitely again due to time paradoxes. I so love the things that hurt my brain to think about.

[Mytical]

The closer I look at Kore, the more convinced I am it is either an alternate universe Forgath, or Forgath from the future. One that has watched evil kill Minmax, and decided to dedicate himself to destroying ALL evil. Minmax once thought all monsters were evil..and if something happened where a Kin lead to the death (even accidently) of MM...it might just push him over the edge...

And..wouldn't MoM pretty much HAVE to create alternate realities? I mean each group has to make choices, and those choices would affect what happened...creating an unlimited amount of alternate realities when our FMK succeeded the first time, or the fifth million time, based on their own decisions?

I mean what if they had stayed and fight the undead? What if Kin and forgath had jumped down with MM? .... ok no more rambling

[CelineSSauve]

And..wouldn't MoM pretty much HAVE to create alternate realities? I mean each group has to make choices, and those choices would affect what happened...creating an unlimited amount of alternate realities when our FMK succeeded the first time, or the fifth million time, based on their own decisions?

Not really... The time spent in the Maze on a failed run is "reset".

[Rorrik]

The closer I look at Kore, the more convinced I am it is either an alternate universe Forgath, or Forgath from the future. One that has watched evil kill Minmax, and decided to dedicate himself to destroying ALL evil. Minmax once thought all monsters were evil..and if something happened where a Kin lead to the death (even accidently) of MM...it might just push him over the edge...

And..wouldn't MoM pretty much HAVE to create alternate realities? I mean each group has to make choices, and those choices would affect what happened...creating an unlimited amount of alternate realities when our FMK succeeded the first time, or the fifth million time, based on their own decisions?

I mean what if they had stayed and fight the undead? What if Kin and forgath had jumped down with MM? .... ok no more rambling

I suppose a kind of Cantor multiplication of realities could be occurring as all of the realities make choice. In that case there is no shame in it taking so many attempts. But what blows my mind the the possibility of alts in the MoM (which contains a large space and apparently infinite time in a single moment and inside a giant sword, or outside of time and space altogether) creating new alts while they are there. Those alts would never be able to enter the maze, they originated in the maze, do they ever compete against other alts not created in the maze, or even other alts created by alts from other within the same maze arc? I can almost imagine how the brackets would be set up if no alts are created while in the maze, but if alts are created in the maze, it all goes gooey.

Consider this:<rambling>

► Show Spoiler

the set of all alts must have a lower limit of performance, even if that lower limit is refusing to participate. Option 1, the set is open and no alt group reaches this lower limit, but can come infinitely close. Option 2, the set is closed and an alt group does rest at this limit. Option 2(the closed set) presents a problem, because in the limit as maze iterations approaches infinity, the maze become completely filled with alts who don't leave the original room. That's no fun, and even if the lower limit is not refusal to participate, the lowest groups so match each other in skill that no group can reach the end intact. Furthermore, if more alts are created in the maze, they will always be created above this group at the lower limit and they can never succeed.

We'll go with option 1, because it is less likely to yield insanity. The open set can still approach the lower limit. If more alts are created in the maze, then they are equally likely to exist nearer for farther from the limit than the originating group, as there are an infinite number of possible values on either side. In this case, in the limit as time goes to infinity(assuming alts created by decisions within the maze cluster near the originating alts) all alts will be clustered near the limit, but none of them at the limit. Again, the game will never end, the remaining alts in the maze will simply continue to become more and more incompetent.

We need another assumption to eventually bring the maze to a stop. This is what I consider the best: the maze grows simpler each iteration. This way, as time goes to infinity in the limit, the maze also approaches a level of simplicity that calls for no choices, until the only choice is enter the treasure room or not.

</rambling>

Been a while since my math proof classes, so all the stuff about sets was probably sketchy, but it reflects what my brain does when you say "alts can be created within the maze by choices being made." Not saying you're wrong, just saying it hurts my head.

It's easier to assume the reset kills all alts.

[Trojan]

I agree that when Kin hears that Minmax is after Names, she might realize they are the goblins who helped her and convince him otherwise.

Would Kin remember them as the Goblins who helped her or the Goblins that abandoned her?

Probably helped, since she told Minmax and Forgath she'd recently met some Goblins who seemed pretty heroic. http://www.goblinscomic.com/05172010/

She's also smart enough to know that the GAP stopping the wagon and going back for her would have led to them all being captured/killed - they were quite possibly the first people to try though and that would probably mean a lot to her.

[Rorrik]

Would Kin remember them as the Goblins who helped her or the Goblins that abandoned her?

Probably helped, since she told Minmax and Forgath she'd recently met some Goblins who seemed pretty heroic. http://www.goblinscomic.com/05172010/

She's also smart enough to know that the GAP stopping the wagon and going back for her would have led to them all being captured/killed - they were quite possibly the first people to try though and that would probably mean a lot to her.

Kin describes the GAP as "pretty heroic", so it would seem it did mean a lot.

I'm swinging back AGAINST Future Forgath being Kore. Some of the evidence seems to point that way, but on the other hand, their IME is totally different. Can a person change is IME?

[SamWiser]

IME is described as the color of their soul, so on first thought I would say no, but it might work in the same way as the person's "true name" in the Eragon series. If that's the case, then with much work and change, then they could.

[thinkslogically]

I'm not buying the "forgath from the future" scenario to be honest - it seems too far-fetched for my liking and would mean you'd have a player playing 2 characters at once.

Anyway, a couple of details about the prophesy that might be worth reiterating-

1. The Brassmoon talking wall says that MM & Forgath DO NOT want to find the goblins again because Forgath will die there. That sounds a lot like the bridge encounter to me (for all teh reasons already voiced about why it's probably MinMax saying 'hey Names, remember me?')
2. Forgath will die in a battle with another dwarf (probably Kore, there's no-one else lined up for that role in the story yet)
3. The prophesy states 'When the serpent becomes YOUR prey...' - If that refers to Kin, he's not going to attack her voluntarily. I'm wondering if Kore could use some kind of Dominating power to turn Forgath against his MM & Kin?

Anyway, my moneys' on the Dragon's Maw bridge meeting because that's where everything should come together based on the information we currently have. Not sure how Kin gets there, but my bet would be that the MoM starts to fall apart thanks to PsyMax and the only way out is for them all to use the Jade Teapot (which in turn gets destroyed).

[GroundWalker]

Just created an account to give some input.

Isn't Minmax's IME purple? Whoever stands in front of them seems to be green.

[SamWiser]

Welcome to the forum! Also, yeah, his ime is purple, but the thought is that if Minmax and Forgath teleport there using the jade teapot then it will show up as green. I am rooting for it being dies, because I don't want MFK and the GAP to meet yet. Things will go badly if they do.

[Davis8488]

My thought on the Kore=Forgath theory.
The beards don't add up. Kore's beard is unbraided: http://www.goblinscomic.com/01182011-2/
Forgath braided his according to level when he got the chance: http://www.goblinscomic.com/09102010/ (I will concede that he might forget having done so in the past, but find it unlikely that a dwarf who braids his beard would later allow it to go unkept, especially when a some braids would go a long way to keep it from getting tangled in the chains across his chest.)

Upon closer examination it also appears that the distance between Kore's eye and beard is much smaller than Forgath's in relation to the size of his face, which is something that wouldn't change with age.

[BuildsLegos]

Isn't Minmax's IME purple? Whoever stands in front of them seems to be green.

Are you unfamiliar with jade? It's a smooth green rock popular with Chinese sculptors. When Minimax & Forgath use the Jade Tepot to find the GAP, the magic effect is probably going to be green.

[ckrowe]

I am rooting for it being dies, because I don't want MFK and the GAP to meet yet. Things will go badly if they do.

I don't know. I have a hard time thinking Dies would say "Remember me?" like that. Doesn't seem appropriate. I also think, thematically, that Dies and Fox (and Duv, really) have a nice storyline about the role of fate which would be blurred by folding them into the GAP experience. I can agree that I'm not quite ready to see a reunion for MM and Complains but I don't think that it would be disastrous at this point. It would expose FMK to Kore, which may as well be pulling the pin on the prophesy-grenade that slays Forgath.