Civilization 6: Rules posted for discussion

[LAYF]

Well, as to races, I'd suggest the following:
people vote on all the possible races (even if there are 5, 22 or 2,54 gazillion choices) then only the top 3 to 5 gets chosen, the excessive votes goes to the one with most votes, like in the example below we have 20 votes, so each vote means 5% of the population:
Race:
A) 1
B) 5
C) 3
D) 1
E) 2
F) 4
G) 1
H) 3

Here only race B, F, C and H would be chosen with
B = 5 votes = 25%
F = 4 votes = 20%
C = 3 votes = 15%
H = 3 votes = 15%
then there are the "unused" 5 votes, they go to race B, but as a lowest class citizen (not slaves or anything, just the lowest worker class)
That way we would limit the number of races but not choices.
The race B, would be the dominant, but also the "bottom pillar" of society, allowing the F, C and H races to be the middle classes.
The B race would hold "the throne" or or there could be a council where the members are represented by either 1 from each race, to represent the equally based on presence. or 5,4,3 and 3 from the races, to represent the equally based on numbers.
the "sub choices" would as said, be middle class and a incorporated part of society, no matter if we are good, evil or chaotic strawberry all the races would have a place in society, and any slaves, thralls or others we may have (as was normal even in "good" society back in the days) would not be part of the player group, but belong to the "resources" so to say, and could come from either a non played races or even the played races, but should not be viewed, at least by the players, as "equal"

[Aegis J Hyena]

I look at that and all I see is noise noise noise. Looks way overcomplicated.

I'll probably do "one vote is X members" and divide X up among warriors/casters/noncombatants/kids.

[BadgeAddict]

I was actually thinking about this. What if we had the same voting method as last time and the tribe is formed out of that variety of tribes (or possibly only the top 4, doesn't matter). But then, instead of the normal method of character creation, Your first character had to be from the highest voted race. This would essentially eliminate any in-fighting that may happen when X race decides to attempt to enslave, beat, abuse or just generally Lord over race Y.

[Aegis J Hyena]

I'll think about that. It does sound intriguing, but then you just have "deviant race" characters who do their own thing anyway. We'll see.

[BadgeAddict]

Sure, depending on the superior race, you may still have some players who want to play dress-up with some of the other races...but i think the whole working together thing may be better.

[madmartin26]

Well, if our biggest problem is infighting, then we don't need to limit people to certain races, we simply need to give the tribe as a group an overarching purpose. Meaning, all of the races have decided not to kill each other for a specific reason, so while there could be political struggles between the races, any attempt to enslave one group or another will be resisted by all of the races as a whole.

For example, let's say the goblins(50% of the population) want to enslave/kill the drow(10% of the population) because they don't like their faces or something. The goblins would be reluctant to do so because they and the drow agreed to work together and not attack each other for a specific reason(Could just be that they agreed not to attack each other, or something more complicated), but if they can rationalize that away, then they have to worry about the fact that all of the other groups would band together to defend the drow, because if they didn't then they could get enslaved next. Therefore, if the goblins actually tried, they would have the population of half the tribe against them. They could still disagree and work against each other, but there(hopefully) won't be any genocides like in Civ 5.

[Aegis J Hyena]

Well, if our biggest problem is infighting, then we don't need to limit people to certain races, we simply need to give the tribe as a group an overarching purpose.

Hence a story arc that spans 10 game years, rather than just hit and miss like with "Ok, let's make her a black wyrm in human guise and drop an obvious hint and see where it goes from there."

Hmmm... giants and ogres are just bigger versions of the same brute... *takes off Giants from the races list*

[ChuckDaRighteous]

Personally from the standpoint of a reader, the infighting was a pretty cool story arc. I think the problem was the drow were too numerous, too opposite, and enslavement didn't help either. I like the idea of internal conflict, not just as a story arc, but as an interesting challenge. How you deal with racial tensions and keep your tribe united would make an interesting game. Also I'd like to see it not be two sided. Example: Goblins may dislike ogres because the don't watch where they step and they have to be careful not to be stepped on. None of the bigger races have that problem. Therefore they are not involved in that conflict, though they may have one with them for other reasons. Tensions could escalate when Grum-Grum, an ogre, accidentally crushes, Marg, a wizened old goblin story teller that all the goblins respected. Then it falls to the players to solve the problem. I think its a more interesting game if we have to deal with that kind of internal problem thrown at us, not just be a united civilization against the outside world.

[BadgeAddict]

Suggestions for Races:

Undead - Skeletons, liches, etc

Plant people - Shroom people (like in mario), dryads, wood nymphs, wood elves (with a plant side) [which lead to the idea of walking tree cities..which would be awesome]

Dragon template - Kobolds who can trace their ancestry to dragons and have the potential for a breathe attack

Sky creatures - Sentient bird people, creatures that are half wyverns, other flying creatures

Fey - Flying magical annoyances

[Aegis J Hyena]

I've already got the list down to 20 races, so I think we're good in the race department. If you've got new ideas for Aspects or Tweaks though...

[BadgeAddict]

That being said, here is the list of the last Aspects and Tweaks that we used available.

ASPECTS OF LIFE

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We're doing something different with the Aspects this time, because I simply want a change.

All Aspects start at a level of 2 (plus racial modifiers of the top three species votes), while all Sub-Trees of an Aspect start at a level of 1.

Each month, all Aspects improve by .5 and all Sub-Trees by .25.
If an action used utilizes an Aspect and is successful, that Aspect gets .75 EXP, the Sub-Tree used gets .5 and those not used get .25.
If an action used utilizes an Aspect and is unsuccessful, that Aspect and the Sub-tree used get .25 EXP.
If the action is a Critical success, the Aspect gets 2 EXP, any Sub-Trees used get 1.5 and those not used get .75.
At Midsummer, all Aspects improve by 2, all Sub-Trees by 1.
At Winter's Meet, all Aspects improve by 3, all Sub-Trees by 2.

Each Aspect has a Base Level and three Sub-Trees. A higher level in the Base Level lowers the difficulty of the roll (so if you have Sorcery 5 and the difficulty would normally be 80+, it's instead 75+), while the Sub-Trees add additional bonuses to the roll (2 * level, so a Sub-Tree Librariomancy level of 3 would give a +6 to that 75+) and influence perks.

You get Perks for every three levels of a Sub-Tree. You get Gifts at every four levels of an Aspect. Think of Perks as Standard Actions and Gifts as Finest Hours in regards to their power; Perks are fun to have while Gifts pack a punch.

Here's a list of Civ 5's Aspects and Sub-Trees.

Village Defense: Village Defense deals with defending the homestead, and combines the various "stuff at home" Aspects I had of the previous Civs. It's divided up into the Militia Skill tree (dealing with warfare within a mile of the village), Home and Family (influences population), and Food and Water (healthy warriors mean better fighters).

Dungeoneering: Dungeoneering deals with finding and cleaning out all the Bad Places you find, both above and below ground. It's divided up into Legends and Lore (Hearing of them), Mazefinding and Lootseeking (Finding and ransacking them) and Dungeon Combat and Tactics (Surviving in them).

Warfare: Warfare is a general catch-all for most combat that doesn't specifically deal in dungeons. Warfare and Militia Skill from Village Defense stack; if one is used in a roll, the other will be used as well. Warfare's cut up into Group Tactics, Single Tactics ("special tricks") and Magic Tactics ("researched spells").

Technology: Technology ushers in the Age of Moving Parts. Everything from cogs to bows to nuclear engines that run on orc vomit fit here. It's divided into Tools N' Traps (anything smaller than a goblin), Blueprints and Gears (anything smaller than an Orc), and Tinkery and Invention (for throwing caution to the winds for you mad scientists out there). Surprisingly enough the Sub-Trees do NOT stack with one another; Tinkery will be used for making something "the first time" while Blueprints or Tools N' Traps will be used for repeated creations.

Personal: Personal deals with the players' stats themselves and will add bonuses to the rolls for their Standard Actions and Finest Hours. Not surprisingly it's cut up into the Occupations, Skills and Hobbies trees, adding points if you do actions based on your skills and occupations and the like.

Spiritual: Spiritual deals with... stuff. Yeah. Spiritual stuff. It's divided into the Divine Focus and Favor Sub-Tree (Influences strength of gifts you may earn and may add a fudge factor to tough rolls), Healing and Smiting (self-explaining) and Shamanism (influences omens and warnings and the like.)

Social: Social deals with non-violent means to ends. If you're not fighting whatever's in front of you, it'll use this. It's divided into People and Culture (first impressions), Language and Goods (words and trading), and Noble Diplomancy (negotiating).

Sorcery: Sorcery is the arcane side of the divine-arcane coin. It's cut up into Librariomancy (Research and Development), Ley Line and I.M.E. (influences outside sources of magical power), and Spell School (which allows for specialization).

Mystery: It's the return of the Mystery aspect! It still influences outside random events, which may happen (80+) if a Something Interesting (70+) roll is made (which naturally is triggered by successful Standard Actions). It's divided into (naturally) the Something Interesting, Standard Action and Finest Hour trees (which simply improve odds of success for them).

UNIVERSE TWEAKS

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On the advice of Badgeaddict, I've gone and added some "Universe Tweaks". Each one comes with pros and cons; you get to pick two (three if Drow are the dominant race). They are of a "You get this, BUT..." variety.

Population Shift: You can choose between Heavy and Light Population. Heavy population doubles your starting population while Light cuts it in half. If this Tweak is chosen, you get the extra people, BUT in response your starting village lies under a near-impenetrable city of resources (and enemies). If Light Population is chosen, this will be reversed (you have the resources, but said city will be under you, poised to potentially invade unless you think of something quick).

Dungeon Maze: Your starting village is in a labyrinth deep below ground. If this is chosen you get the added defense a mad wizard's maze brings, BUT you may have to deal with said mad wizard or his entourage of extra-bashy Minotaurs...

Distressingly Furry: The world has anthropomorphic animals and sometimes even regular ones. If this is chosen you might be able to gain animalistic tribal allies, BUT by the same token, "food that talks back might not be food..."

Lycanthropy: Half the starting tribe is made up of Lycanthropes of three randomly chosen animals. This gives them enhanced senses and a resistance to normal weapons (3/Silver) BUT also puts them at the whims of the moon, which could lead to blood lust or worse depending on what animals are rolled.

Resource Source: Your starting village is within range of multiple sources of high quality resources (wood, metal, fresh water). If this is chosen you get a bonus to village defense and you start with mostly Masterwork gear, BUT such resources are not limitless and you'll have rivals on them in no time at all.

Magic Zone: Your home village is in the midst of a magical zone, allowing for strange variations in the local population (in effect, Mutations). If you decide to pick this one up, 5% of the populace will have very strong mutations, BUT not all of them will be good and if I roll poorly on the wild surge generators I use, could spell a potential quick end for the tribe.

Celestial Event: The tribe founds their village on the night of a Celestial Event, and as such may give rise to true heroes BUT a blood enemy to your race has achieved near-godlike (for a mortal) power and is coming to exterminate you once and for all...

Divinely/Arcanely Barren (or Boosted, your choice): Your village is in a location where it's Divinely Barren (or Boosted) or Arcane Barren (or Boosted). It gives general penalties or boosts (depending on what's picked) BUT deities/otherworldly sources will have their eye on you (or away from you) and it will be very difficult to change their opinions (in any choice).

Technological: Your tribe is technologically adept (or inept, your choice), BUT magic as a whole will suffer (or be boosted). Stacks with Divine/Arcane boost or barren, which will make the threats that much stronger to compensate.

Deviant Deity: Your tribe worships a strange deity, which offers even stranger powers... BUT also requires strange rituals or requirements in addition!

War Zone: You've set up your village in a war zone between two warring tribes of something. You can ally with one or both, or sell weapons to them or something... BUT if diplomacy or war fails, you'll likely be outright overwhelmed.

Gaia: You've found an ecological paradise to build your village in, BUT it's both arcanely and divinely dead. D-e-a-d Dead.

Mysterious Benefactor: Someone founded your village for you, with a few interesting additions, turning the village into an empty fortress waiting to be populated... BUT the devil will come calling and want his fiddle of gold back...

► Show Spoiler

Yes I removed underdark connections....because i HATED it.

[BadgeAddict]

I know i double posted, but i would like to keep these separated, thanks.

► Show Spoiler

That being said, I wonder if, as already suggested that Hobbys, skills, jobs be considered more user friendly and relevant as opposed to just pretty words, I would like to suggest an overhaul of the aspects that may end up really hurting us (or helping) but might also make the game more interesting.

So, from my understanding, Aspects are, essentially, The Tribe leveling up in certain areas. What if that focus on the tribe was shifted to a focus on the people that made up the tribe.

Allow me to explain my big complex words:

Instead of acting as if the "tribe" is a person on it's own slowly leveling up in a variety of areas, what if instead, the people who made up the tribe were what drove the aspects. PC's would provide a "boost" in certain areas, making it hurt more when they either 1. die or 2. stop playing.

Please understand that I am also attempting to make this easy on you Aegis....I just hope it could do that.

The following is a list of Aspects:

Village Defense & Warfar: Offense & Defense
Either in the form of offense or Defense, the tribe might rally behind a leader in the ways of war. In order to not be a big drama mess, this leader would most likely be an NPC. This military leader would learn and grow much like the current Aspect of war and defense grow. Players who choose a more war-minded job would provide a "boost" in this aspects. The downside is that if and when something happens to the military leader, this aspect goes down.

Dungeoneering & Exploration
This would probably best be described as an explorer, again the "lead" explorer could be an NPC who when given the chance, goes on every possible dungeon exploring conquest in order to provide as well as grow his knowledge. PC's who choose skills that follow this aspect would also provide a "boost" to this.

Technology
Technology would be a master inventor, someone who strives always to research and develop new things and again, could be an NPC leader and again everything I said about boosting and such.

Personal & Social Charisma
Same as all of the above, Some sort of Master Diplomat who excels at persuasion and such again boosted by PC's who choose this route.

Spiritual
Same as all of the above, Some sort of Divine Cleric or shaman again boosted by PC's who choose this route.

Sorcery
Same as all of the above, Some sort of Master Wizard again boosted by PC's who choose this route.

Mystery
This is about the only Aspect that would go up on it's own.

This entire method works around players essentially "leveling up" their "jobs/skills/hobbies" in order to make the entire tribe better.

Also, it allows real progress in a certain area, sorcery goes up as more NPC's study in the art of magic and as the master wizard grows in knowledge. But, it also stands as a warning for decisions that you need to protect those who hold the knowledge.

Upon the death of an NPC who leads in such an area, their death might be mitigated somewhat by having such things as a library, sub-commanders, etc

Another method of "boosting" as I will call it now, would be to find, build, create objects which help in certain aspects.
example: City walls might boost the aspect of defense, a tome of knowledge might boost the sorcery Aspect...

I would like to think that what I've suggested makes the game a bit more REAL, as what you do, what you create will have a direct result in aspects.

You may even be able to do away with EXP entirely and go more toward: a successful (or highly successful) SA or FH by a PC will improve his "knowledge" in the aspect which most closely aligns with his job/skill/hobbies

[ChuckDaRighteous]

Badge's post got me thinking:

Village Defense: Village Defense deals with defending the homestead, and combines the various "stuff at home" Aspects I had of the previous Civs. It's divided up into the Militia Skill (dealing with warfare within a mile of the village),Home and Family (influences population), and Food and Water (healthy warriors mean better fighters).

I feel like this should be split into two trees:

Community: The day to day dealings withing the village
Home and Family (influences population)
Food and Water (health and subsistence)
Relationships (ability to deal with internal strife)

Village Defense: dealing with defense against outside threats
Militia Skill (dealing with combat within a mile of the village)
Watches and Patrols (ability to notice outside threats)
Protection (ability to protect structures/non-combatants/resources)

Mostly this is because I wanted some way to fit relationships in because of my above ideas on aegis throwing internal problems at us as well as external.

Also in comment to badges idea, rather than have it solely rest on certain people, why not create a "masters" mechanic. Have this available to to NPCs randomly (low chance of becoming one) when a tribe's actions succeed, and PCs based on their deeds and occupation. For example if one of the voted actions was to send a scout party to determine what's causing the fires seen in the distance, and success revealed there is a human war-party coming our way, we'd have a chance to create a "watches and patrols" npc master (I'm thinking ~5% chance on success, ~25% chance on critical success). Meanwhile a PC with the farmer occupation has been trying to cross breed a highly nutritious but frail crop (that we keep losing half) of with a heartier plant. If he succeeds he might become a Food and water master. Characters can only be a master at one section although there can be multiple masters in one section. So lets say he does some stuff and suddenly "Bob has become a master at magic tactics." As a master he would earn 1 exp towards the field of magic tactics every 3 months, with bonus exp towards magic tactic when he succeeds in relevant actions (leading the mages in a fight. However, if bob died, his knowledge would be lost and the tribe would lose half the exp towards the next level. So if we were at 48/75, we would drop to 24/75.

[BadgeAddict]

Remember one thing Chuck, the more that Aegis has to keep track of, the longer it will be between updates.

[Aegis J Hyena]

I'm considering getting rid of the sub-aspects completely. That way there's A) less to roll, B) forces you to focus more on Personal/occupation/skill/hobby and C) so many variables added together makes for easy beating of difficulties.

I do like that masters mechanic. I'll add it to my notes and tweak it.

[Davecom3]

And the longer it takes between posts, the more chances Aegis avoids writer's block.

[Aegis J Hyena]

This time it wasn't writer's block. I'm awaiting word from the City as to when exactly I'll need to run for it. Tomorrow I go talk to someplace that helps people in my situation. It may be as easy as moving down the street (which I don't want) or a move back to Albany (which I do, the gas and elec companies are sane there).

[Aegis J Hyena]

I'm thinking about getting rid of the Aspects and Sub-trees altogether and rolling 2d100 for actions, with an 80+ succeeding (modified of course by bonuses for occupation/skill/hobby). What do you guys think?

[BadgeAddict]

^not to speak for him, but having spoken with him.

I believe the attempt is to withdraw aspects but at the same time making occupation/skill/hobby more user friendly.

Personally, I'm all for removing Aspects and making the stats more usable...so, i vote yes

[D34dlock]

I'm for it. Math below.

Average 1d100 roll would be 50.5. Average 2d100 roll would be 101 tending towards between 50 & 150. Add bonuses & that should have a higher success rate. Bonuses would have to be higher to effect the result meaningfully. So 101 for 50/50 chance. +80 difficulty being easy or a light challenge? As it is your proposed rule would lead to a faster building game. This means a Bigger & Bolder game is possible.

It'll have a different vibe. Should be lots of fun if your ready for it.

[BadgeAddict]

well...bonuses are the aspects...so if you removed the aspects, you would lose bonuses, depending on how he would rewrite the rules to this new format...

Also, note that removing aspects makes less rolls and/or things to remember/forget for aegis which also potentially means a faster game.

With current updates, the further along we get (progression/growth) the more rolls he has to make which slows down the entire process. So I'm in the hopes that removing Aspects, removes some of that ever-growing workload from him.

[ChuckDaRighteous]

I'm the exact opposite. I like the aspects/sub-aspects. I just feel they should be more directional rather than a little of everything. Choosing one forsakes another, and therefore determines what the tribe is good or bad at. More driven by our actions rather than where we spend xp. Also if the rolls were too easy with too many variables, then either it needs to be more selective on which variables should take effect for any given roll, or difficulty needs to be adjusted to be harder. Also you say a generic 80+ succeeds but shouldn't success be variable to the given task? Carting supplies down the road shouldn't be as difficult as moving mountains. Could be I'm just reading it wrong though.

[BadgeAddict]

I think that is obvious chuck...Knowing Aegis, I think difficulty will be more of a sliding scale than a simple 80 pass/fail...i could also be wrong..

but again, take it from someone who has sat through 2 CIVs, at first they go really fast and update at least once a day if not faster....then as time passes it slows down..and i think part of that is an ever-increasing amount of rolls that he has to make and information that he has to keep track of.

[Aegis J Hyena]

Not so much an increasing number of rolls. As the Civilization gets stable, it sometimes becomes less interesting until I can get storylines in mind/making something interesting up, and thus I slow down. This one will have a 10-year thread passing through it so I'll update regularly no problem.

[BadgeAddict]

I stand sit corrected

(i am sitting)