The Goblins Fan Forum

Glemp wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:29 am

Generic wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:11 pm

Velgar wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:21 am Had to read back a bit, but then found again that they were picking classes the last (#maybe?) we saw Yala and friends.

There was call for Rogue and Wizard, but we weren't shown who called and picked what.

Have we had any official word on what happened to the group after splitting with main gobs?

I think that was a very good sendoff of those characters. I am fine with not knowing.

There was a Patreon background comic, but it didn't really add much to their story - just confirmed they were taking classes.

I entirely disagree. I desperately want to see more of Takn, Yala, Scrole, and the drow with the flayed back. I do understand it's a lower priority than continuing the stories of the GAP, Minmax, Forgath, and eventually even Dies (it's been close to a decade since we left him!). But I'm hoping that eventually, all of these protagonist groups will unite and go on a big epic quest, and at that point it might be helpful to have a party of low level randos who we can cut away to.

I think for old comics, the threads have died.... (we had some forum-software crashes)


Honestly, I prefer the original order.

If you swap it around, it looks as if Minmax immediately recognizes his error, which the last panel of the page does not show as clearly.
If he would see his error already there, I would expect him to drop the leash before the end of the page.

It may be that the order you and I read the panels natively is different.

Best wishes,
Krulle

cbertrand wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:02 pm Sorry, long time reader, new forum user. I do not know how to start a new thread nor how to do a search, in here. I do not see a "New Topic" button. Is it restricted to established users? Any help would be appreciated.

Is there a thread where people discuss the underlying pain of the October 22nd, 2013 comic?

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/10222013

I was wondering if anybody else ever begged Ellipsis to swap the art of panels 9 and 10. ie. have Minmax cry out first before looking down and realizing what he had done, a la:


instead of

Or does Ellipsis say somewhere she used that order on purpose because Minmax really did think through what he was doing? In my head, I have always swapped those two panels around so that I can consider Minmax guilty of criminally, selfish thoughtlessness, rather than criminally, selfish malice. However, I would love to know Elipsis' thoughts behind those two panels (maybe she just had space issues on the page! Keep hope alive)

I have been an avid reader since late 2005, but that page has always distressed me.

I'll be happy to move this to a new thread, if somebody tells me how.

Back when I read it, I interpreted that as MinMax being a deliberate asshole. Kin being bound to him by destiny is almost as creepy as the leash itself.

Generic wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:57 pm Back when I read it, I interpreted that as MinMax being a deliberate asshole. Kin being bound to him by destiny is almost as creepy as the leash itself.

I definitely wouldn't interpret it that way. The author of the comic has stated "Kin is based on my mother and how she was raped". Given this, I doubt that the author would have written the comic in order to subject Kin to further violation, other than as a tragic situation which is immediately rectified. (Remember that the timey-wimeyness of the Maze of Many means that, for each of Kin and Minmax, part of the time they were separated passed in a very short period compared to the other. So "immediately" is pretty accurate, not only to Minmax dropping the leash within seconds of accidentally violating Kin, but also to the overall situation being sorted out within a matter of hours from Minmax's perspective, hours during which Kin was frozen in time from the outside, but experienced enough time to gain five wizard levels despite presumably having a high ECL - thusly, they were apart for a short time but felt their separation for a long period).

Generic wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:57 pm Back when I read it, I interpreted that as MinMax being a deliberate asshole. Kin being bound to him by destiny is almost as creepy as the leash itself.

Does Elipsis have any blog post or comment on that page? I do not think she meant for MinMax to have been a deliberate &$$#*!= of the magnitude that his action merits. Kin's turn around to pursuing him wouldn't be very believable in that case, imho (regardless of being able to "see" him)

cbertrand wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:54 pm

Generic wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:57 pm Back when I read it, I interpreted that as MinMax being a deliberate asshole. Kin being bound to him by destiny is almost as creepy as the leash itself.

Does Elipsis have any blog post or comment on that page? I do not think she meant for MinMax to have been a deliberate &$$#*!= of the magnitude that his action merits. Kin's turn around to pursuing him wouldn't be very believable in that case, imho (regardless of being able to "see" him)

I have no idea. I don't do twitter. Unless the comment is posted on the same page, I just assume what is on screen is what is happening. MinMax is a giant... Purple worm... if you ask me, and fate is cruel pulling Kin back to him.

Blessed art thou, who hath never commited a deed of foolishness in moment of desperation, in ignorance or for simple folly.

For thou art gifted with far poorer memory than others.

See, the biggest take away from Minmax is... That he's stupid. Pure and simple.

And both pure, like a child never learned in ways of the world and absolutely, painfully simple in many a wrong way.

Calling him out from acts of utter idiocy is in kin of being baffled of a person with busted legs being slow.

Does it mean he's beyond fault? Heck, no. But you have to factor in that he, like the cripple, is absolutely slow.

And he was in a situation where he had to act fast, with seemingly very few options. And did I already mention he's stupid?

Taking the leash was probably the single last idea he had that he could get Kin ever to listen to him, ever again.

Smart? No. Forgivable? Hardly. In a moment Kin already questioned her trust towards Minmax? Expertly bad timing. Believable? Actually... Yes.

And the moment he realised what he had done, he... Was again confused. Lost.
...
Are you sure I emphasized that he's stupid? Bit like, enough?

He tried to apologize. A lot. But even he knew he had crossed a lined. Hell, he picked a fight with Dellyn THE GOBLIN SLAYER over this. His hero. The moment he heard what the guy was doing to A MONSTER. And now he had pretty much done the same to Kin himself.

Yeah. He apologized. There was nothing more he could do. He tried to even explain, begged, tried to strike a deal...

But in the end, he drank the tea and left. Just that. He knew he could do no more. He had done too much.


Now Kin...

There's a smart cookie, if we ever saw one. Even more so than some of her alternate version, as we've seen.

So why come back? Especially after all that? Boy, is that poor penpersonship.

Oooor... Is it?

See. Kin, like mentioned, is smart. Even with the oblivion holes, she could see thing that were missing from the outlines the disappeared entity left after it. She saw the cookie cut space in time and space of things gone by oblivion.

She knew she trusted Minmax. Why? She couldn't tell. Especially after the leash. But there was something. Again, she knew she trusted Minmax, so logically there had to be reason for it.

Now forward some time, lot of dungeon running and above all, more time to think what, why and how. Again, Kin is absolutely smart little egghead. She quite likely starts to see the picture around the one thing she is missing. The why.

She thinks back to the reason of the trust, the moments that caused her to trust, she even remembers the words she exchanged with Ruby. She start to see the whole picture with the hole in middle of it.

She thinks Minmax a lot. Once more, she knows she trusts him. She thinks back what they've gone through.

And above all else, she knows one thing, because once more, she's smart: Minmax. Is stupid. But she also trusts him.

So all in all. It's not illogical for her to come to a conclusion that she indeed does trust Minmax and though she does not still fully know why (that part was destroyed [unless she managed to somehow recreate it with the gears]) and she knows why Minmax did perhaps the most stupid thing possible at the worst possible time... 'Cose he's stupid.

Now. If you're still with me (first of all, thank you for entertaining my ramblings), the conclusion:

-Did Minmax do the most stupid thing he could? YES!

-Does he deserve to be forgiven, 'cose he's stupid? No.

-Can he be forgiven, stupid OR not? Yes.

-Should Kin forgive him? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on Kin.

-Did he do something that no-one ever in their right mind or even bereft of it would do and is Kin's return the most illogical thing to ever be done by such logical creature? NO.

I say, with fair bit of trust in the following truth, that there has never been, is or will be, a creature that would not be capable of this kind of idiocy, even with all the good, hopeful and best intents in mind, if the right circumstances presented themselves.

And that there will forever be, even if only one singular creature, who's willing to forgive them.

Thank you for your time and keep on always striving for good, just and noble actions, but be ready to forgive yourself and those around you when it fails, while always remembering, you never have to forgive, but you always can.

I gotta disagree with some of that. Looking down at the leash, then grabbing it and giving an order is not a reflexive move. It is thought out. Has Elipsis ever commented on this page, anywhere?

This is not a man who, in the heat of an argument, grabbed the shoulders of and yelled at a girlfriend who had been in abusive relationships before. That would be if Minmax yelled at her to listen and then realized that he had grabbed the leash. It is understandable (still a bad thing, but not a strong indication of somebody who could be an abuser) if, in the heat of the moment, he reached out and grabbed the leash, the way you might reach out and grab a shirt. Then it could be that he forgot what that leash can do and is guilty of not always keeping in the forefront of his mind what it can do.

Instead, this, imho, is closer to date rape. He had his moment to stop (when he looked down and saw the leash) but decided to keep going.

I've always swapped the images in my mind, a la:



instead of

You're taking it that there's more time between the panels? Like he took his time looking the leash, thinking what it does and symbolizes? Considering how it would affect their relationship and future? Momenteraly even having time to check her backside, feeling somewhat conflicted by it being clearly a snakebutt, but also kinda curvy, so there was some semblance of humanity there as well that primally felt attractive to him? Then perhaps he toon a breather, collecting his thoughts a bit more and finally made a poorly educated leap of faith and grabbed the leash?

Or...

He was watching her leave, thinking of absolutely anything that could make her listen. Then seeing the leash that he knew for a fact would make her listen. And without letting himself think ahead even an iota further, grabbed the last thing he thought that would make her listen.

Which it did, so there's that. But in the most horrible way possible. And that is why he left, despite having tried even absolute force to get her to listen. Especially because he had done that.

Dudes and Dudettes!

There was something about Kore, and I couldn't put my finger on it until now.
Kore is one of my favourite characters: Even if he's an enemy of the goblins, he has that menacing aura and (Why not?) the coolness of a Terminator.


The problem was that I though that the "I have many souls" didn't seem a good explanation about how could Kore not fall, and then, just recently, I remembered this:

"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities"

Keep in mind: Any character could willingly perform an evil act and still count as good, just like doing a single act of good wouldn't make an unrepent lich suddenly stop being evil (Also, any character could be coherced, blackmailed or forced to choose the lesser evil) But for paladins, that is not so simple: A paladin can not choose the lesser of two evils and keep his status. Of course, as a narrator this would open an interesting story (If your conviction was right, and you were sincerely willing to sacrifice your honor for the sake of innocents, your deity could grant you the path of the Grey Knight, for example)


But going back to Kore: Even if he can pass as Lawful Good, he could not be a paladin after killing an inocent kid!
So... what do you think about this?

Souhiro wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:00 pm Dudes and Dudettes!

There was something about Kore, and I couldn't put my finger on it until now.
Kore is one of my favourite characters: Even if he's an enemy of the goblins, he has that menacing aura and (Why not?) the coolness of a Terminator.


The problem was that I though that the "I have many souls" didn't seem a good explanation about how could Kore not fall, and then, just recently, I remembered this:

"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities"

Keep in mind: Any character could willingly perform an evil act and still count as good, just like doing a single act of good wouldn't make an unrepent lich suddenly stop being evil (Also, any character could be coherced, blackmailed or forced to choose the lesser evil) But for paladins, that is not so simple: A paladin can not choose the lesser of two evils and keep his status. Of course, as a narrator this would open an interesting story (If your conviction was right, and you were sincerely willing to sacrifice your honor for the sake of innocents, your deity could grant you the path of the Grey Knight, for example)


But going back to Kore: Even if he can pass as Lawful Good, he could not be a paladin after killing an inocent kid!
So... what do you think about this?

The Chief explains how Kore stays a paladin in https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-23-2019 Kore can count as any alignment among the souls he holds, so he counts as lawful Good for paladin purposes.

That being said, I agree that paladinship in regular D&D is lost because of actions not alignment, but maybe the rules differ in the world of the goblins. After all, I think Miko, over in the giant's playground, still counted as Lawful Good even after she bisected Shojo:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html

Think of it like this. Your girlfriend (or boyfriend, regardless of your own gender, but for ease of pronouns we'll say you're a guy and you have a girlfriend) is about to get into a car to drive away out of your life. In desperation to try and get a few more seconds to try and change her mind by promising to do or not do whatever the argument was about you not doing or doing, you try to stop her from opening the car door by running up and slamming the door shut before she can fully open it. But you misjudged your distance and speed by some microscopic amount, and she already had her hand inside the door to pull it open for the rest of her, so by slamming the door you accidentally crush her fingers. You instantly realize what you just did and you feel horrible about the fact that you just accidentally maimed the woman you loved; there's no way you can undo this injury now and you're incredibly sorry. But it was an accidental injury born from a reckless, desperate, split-second action that you didn't have the time or sense to think all the way through.

In the accidental injury case, the fact that you didn't intend to cause harm should be taken into account if the case goes to court. It wouldn't be counted as assault/battery, or at least not as first-degree assault/battery, because if you prosecute accidental crimes the same as deliberate ones, then there would be no difference between our careless car-door slammer and someone who intentionally mangled his girlfriend's hand out of pure black hatred. So by the same time, accidentally mind-controlling your snakey lady-love, by making the split-second action of using her mind-control device against her in a moment of panic, is not analogous to date rape. Date rape is a deliberate action; you gave someone a drink knowing it was spiked, for the intentional purpose of getting her (or him) drugged into helplessness and taking advantage. If you just bought someone a drink and it turned out they had a much lower alcohol tolerance than they assumed when choosing to drink it, so they immediately passed out and fell face-first into your lap so that their lips were now touching your junk through your jeans, that doesn't mean you intentionally plied them with that alcohol and intended to create a sexual assault.

Intention absolutely does matter in a criminal case, as does the mental faculties of the person who performs an action. For all of his combat prowess and relatively normal language usage (both of which are in place due to D&D genre convention as being unrelated to INT score; I've never heard of a DM who punishes players for talking normally when playing a low-INT character), Minmax is barely above the level of someone with Down's syndrome; no jury in their right minds would convict him as if he was fully capable for his actions. If anyone could be held responsible, someone (perhaps Herbert) might argue that Forgath is effectively Minmax's guardian, and could be considered at fault for bringing the two of them together and then leaving them alone together, but of course a detailed analysis of the three's time together would fairly clearly indicate that Forgath at no point had any reason to believe this was a possible outcome. The whole situation is a tragedy, but I don't think it's a crime.

Kore is lawful since he has purpose and don't compromice.
He is good since he fights evil.

As for the evil act thing, I don't know. A lot of things Gygax decided is pretty bad.

Generic wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:26 pm Kore is lawful since he has purpose and don't compromice.
He is good since he fights evil.

As for the evil act thing, I don't know. A lot of things Gygax decided is pretty bad.

Evil will fight evil if it gets in its way (or, as the flea said, if they "disagree") Besides, Kore also fights good . . .

Hope_Caswell wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:50 pm Think of it like this. Your girlfriend (or boyfriend, regardless of your own gender, but for ease of pronouns we'll say you're a guy and you have a girlfriend) is about to get into a car to drive away out of your life. In desperation to try and get a few more seconds to try and change her mind by promising to do or not do whatever the argument was about you not doing or doing, you try to stop her from opening the car door by running up and slamming the door shut before she can fully open it. But you misjudged your distance and speed by some microscopic amount, and she already had her hand inside the door to pull it open for the rest of her, so by slamming the door you accidentally crush her fingers. You instantly realize what you just did and you feel horrible about the fact that you just accidentally maimed the woman you loved; there's no way you can undo this injury now and you're incredibly sorry. But it was an accidental injury born from a reckless, desperate, split-second action that you didn't have the time or sense to think all the way through.

. . .

I would agree with your analogy if Minmax hadn't looked down first. Unfortunately, he does look down first. IMHO, that makes the situation more akin to interposing yourself between your significant other and the car, then giving them a strong shove back accidentally making them fall and hurt themselves. The way the panels are, now, implies (I believe) that there was conscious thought.

But how MUCH conscious thought? A comic panel can represent a split-second glance as easily as it represents five seconds of contemplation.

Hope_Caswell wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:39 pm But how MUCH conscious thought? A comic panel can represent a split-second glance as easily as it represents five seconds of contemplation.

It was enough thought for him to look down and focus on it. If he wasn't consciously thinking about it, he would have just grabbed it from his peripheral vision. (imho)

I understood this 2nd panel as him looking down in desperation for a short time, not focusing on anything (and maybe even having an inside "sight").