Understandable, yet Frustrating?

[stevedj]

Sort of related ...

I brief moment of terror this morning!, as I came to the main comic page. As the graphics were loading into the browser, the countdown clock was first, and showed... in place of days/hours/minutes... 3 QUESTION MARKS! Panic gripped me! I thought "...oh no! ... slipped/late again...".

But then as the page finished loading, and the clock connected to its server, the correct numbers filled in. WHEW!

Ok, that is all. As I said, just a brief moment of terror.

[Wolfie]

so long as it was brief. Prolonged moments of terror require piddle pads... you don't need a piddle pad do you?

[lingrem]

so long as it was brief. Prolonged moments of terror require piddle pads... you don't need a piddle pad do you?

[RocketScientist]

I've been busy rehabbing my house, so I just saw that people answered my question. Thank you for the answers.

Has it occurred to anyone how tiresome it is to have to read through page after page of people's cathartic therapy? Because man, I have read this same complaint more times than I can even count.

What is the point of posting complaints about the update schedule in the forums? Are you hoping Thunt will read the thread, and say, "gee, you're right. I will do just what you say."

Umm.. yes... that's exactly what I'm hoping... As a small business owner who relies totally on the good-will of his fans, I would think he would read feedback, and at least consider the points made in this thread...

I want more comics... I will buy every book he publishes. I will not buy a board game based on this comic. That's only one small data point, but it's certainly useful feedback...

Perhaps you missed the part of my paragraph that you didn't quote?

And if so, wouldn't it be more likely for him to see a Tweet or an e-mail addressed specifically to him? He doesn't spend all his time reading the forums, since he's busy making comics, card games, etc. So unless he happens to read the thread when he stops by sometime, you're just complaining to people who have no control over the situation.

He's probably not going to read whatever complaints you post in the forum. So it's kind of a waste of time if that's your goal. But for the sake of feedback, I didn't chip in to the Kickstarter, either. I'm flat broke and trying to rehab my house, and I have no idea how or with whom I would play a Goblins game. So there you go.

Anyway, Happy North America Week. (I have just coined this name. I will generously allow you guys to use it, though. You're welcome. )

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

And in one minute he'll be late again! I'm going to go kick a puppy!

[Ghormagon]

I've been busy rehabbing my house, so I just saw that people answered my question. Thank you for the answers.

Has it occurred to anyone how tiresome it is to have to read through page after page of people's cathartic therapy? Because man, I have read this same complaint more times than I can even count.

What is the point of posting complaints about the update schedule in the forums? Are you hoping Thunt will read the thread, and say, "gee, you're right. I will do just what you say."

Umm.. yes... that's exactly what I'm hoping... As a small business owner who relies totally on the good-will of his fans, I would think he would read feedback, and at least consider the points made in this thread...

I want more comics... I will buy every book he publishes. I will not buy a board game based on this comic. That's only one small data point, but it's certainly useful feedback...

Perhaps you missed the part of my paragraph that you didn't quote?

And if so, wouldn't it be more likely for him to see a Tweet or an e-mail addressed specifically to him? He doesn't spend all his time reading the forums, since he's busy making comics, card games, etc. So unless he happens to read the thread when he stops by sometime, you're just complaining to people who have no control over the situation.

He's probably not going to read whatever complaints you post in the forum. So it's kind of a waste of time if that's your goal. But for the sake of feedback, I didn't chip in to the Kickstarter, either. I'm flat broke and trying to rehab my house, and I have no idea how or with whom I would play a Goblins game. So there you go.

Anyway, Happy North America Week. (I have just coined this name. I will generously allow you guys to use it, though. You're welcome. )

RocketScientist, you make a very interesting point above (i suck at figuring out how to use the tags, so just grabbed it all )
I actually agree with you that sending it to THunt directly would have been a much more efficient way of passing my sentiments along. As this thread has shown, there are a number of people, to varying degrees, who agree and disagree with me. That was one of the reasons I wanted to post this in open forum, because I thought a consensus was valid amongst THunt's fans who may or may not feel the same way i do.

The other reason I chose to post in open forum, was because I really wasn't sure if my point would have been received and portrayed accurately. I say this because a long time ago (maybe a year-ish? those of you who follow THunt's twitter will remember this one) THunt posted on Twitter about a guy who railed on him HARD for being late with his updates, and the guy even went so far as to insult Danielle directly in response to all the posts THunt was making about her.

I think it's safe to assume EVERYONE will agree the language and comments the guy chose to use was grossly beyond out-of-line, to the point where even I wanted to give him a shake to try and jog his brain into gear. BUT, he still made a valid point, although extremely poorly. The part that stuck with me about that whole thing was, THunt rightfully called the guy down for insulting him, BUT, THunt also wouldn't acknowledge the valid point he made. What followed was everyone jumping on the THunt-wagon and joining him in bashing the guy's rudeness. Hence, the valid piece got swept under the rug.

Finally, I agree the time clock on the front page is a nice piece of eye candy that let's everyone know when the next patch is coming, that's great! What everyone is missing though, is the real piece that fixed his timeliness is he increased his update timeline to a schedule he can realistically work with to deliver the product he wants to.

Many people may call me a pessimist, and a person focused on negativity. But what I really am is a potential customer lost. The general rule of thumb is, depending on your industry, for every customer who says something, you have 'x' people who don't and move on. I've been trolling the comic and forums for over 4 years, and yet to get the warm fuzzy back i originally had about supporting THunt. I lost it when he did Tempts Fate for his house, and didn't deliver. From then on I just didn't believe in supporting an artist who turned his back on his dedicated fans. I feel i have a right to voice and express my thoughts on this, because i was extremely close to being one of those financially committed fans who would have been disappointed.

THunt, if you do have the time to read this, please take it as constructive criticism from a fan who wants to see you succeed and grow with your incredible talent.

[RocketScientist]

He couldn't change his update schedule until recently for legal reasons. That was also mentioned in every schedule complaint thread, and is probably the reason the complaints were not addressed. There was really nothing to be done about it. Once he was able to change his schedule, he did.

[SeeAMoose]

Many people may call me a pessimist, and a person focused on negativity. But what I really am is a potential customer lost. The general rule of thumb is, depending on your industry, for every customer who says something, you have 'x' people who don't and move on. I've been trolling the comic and forums for over 4 years, and yet to get the warm fuzzy back i originally had about supporting THunt. I lost it when he did Tempts Fate for his house, and didn't deliver. From then on I just didn't believe in supporting an artist who turned his back on his dedicated fans. I feel i have a right to voice and express my thoughts on this, because i was extremely close to being one of those financially committed fans who would have been disappointed.

Thank you for your polite response. I have no problem with people voicing such legitimate concerns and don't want to discourage anyone from doing so (even though I do get annoyed from time to time because I can remember some of the less than polite complaints we were subjected to).

[rant]
And now... well this is more of a rant, but I promise I'll try to be polite. It also isn't really directed at you, but more at the collective group of people who tend to bring up Tempts Fate. I also want to say that you and others who have complained about the subject have made many valid points.

With respect to Tempts Fate, if you mean that the story isn't finished, you would be correct. However, this is only because Thunt decided to try to go beyond what he had promised and add an extra page to the story. If you go based on the number of pages he's completed than he has met the original goal. Granted there is still more to be done, but again that's because he added extra work on. Was it the wisest decision? No, but it's something I would recommend people think about.

There is one other thing that I have seen again and again that bugs me to no end (and again, please remember that this is not directed at you. Your comment is more at your reaction to it which is entirely different to what others have done. Something you said just happened to inspire me to say something).

"I almost donated to the drive, and I would be so pissed if I was one of the people who donated their money only to have Thunt fail to deliver on his promises." First, you're not. You chose not to donate to a voluntary donation drive and that is completely fine; it was your choice. However, precisely because you did not donate you do not get the right to complain as if you had donated. A majority of the posts I have seen from people who are upset about Tempts Fate not being finished (particularly those of the righteous variety), are from people who say that they didn't donate. Now I am not saying that none of the people who donated are upset about Tempts not being finished; I have seen some posts from such people. What I am saying is that the outcry using that argument has been louder from those who didn't donate.

Second, Thunt and Danielle have delivered on nearly every promise made to people who donated. Character sheets (Which had to be designed/drawn from scratch for multiple games)? Check. Art from the comic? Check. By and large I think everything went out within a year, and that was a lot of packages to send. Even for those who it took longer than it should have for, they made every effort to make things right. I know because it took over a year for me to get my strip and physical character sheet (as it turns out because I missed an email from Danielle ), but Thunt and Danielle made it right and got me taken care of.

I guess my point is that it really bugs me when people try to make a complaint from a position that isn't theirs to claim. Now if you actually donated to the Tempts Fate drive, please go ahead and complain if you want, your complaints are worth something.
[/rant]

He couldn't change his update schedule until recently for legal reasons. That was also mentioned in every schedule complaint thread, and is probably the reason the complaints were not addressed. There was really nothing to be done about it. Once he was able to change his schedule, he did.

We really should have included that in the FAQ page and linked to it religiously every time someone brought it up

... I suddenly got an awesome idea... I need to make a [rant] BBCode. What should it look like?

[lingrem]

► Show Spoiler

Make it look like the Hidden comment box, but REDDDDDDD!

[Wolfie]

► Show Spoiler

Make it look like the Hidden comment box, but REDDDDDDD!

What she said

[Unlucky-for-Some]

► Show Spoiler

Make it look like the Hidden comment box, but REDDDDDDD!

What she said

Seconded ... or maybe thirded

[SamWiser]

We do already have this guy. Still, this plus the code, would be awesome.

[Tama]

I've been too busy with college and shit to be a forumite and then was offline for the first half of the summer with a busted laptop hard drive. Now that all that's out of the way, I can throw in my 2 cents that maybe others will understand. I don't have a PERSONAL opinion because as much as I love Goblins, I can live without it; but I DO have a PROFESSIONAL opinion to throw out.

This IS his job now. The readership pays his bills. He needs to hold up his end of things to keep his day job just like anyone else. His paying and donating readership are his collective bosses because they effectively write his paychecks. You cannot say otherwise without appearing a complete fool and tool. Why? Because without pleasing at least the majority of that paying and donating readership, his business will begin to suffer and hemorrhage money until he has to get another not-making-his-beloved-comic job again, effectively losing the American Dream** of doing what you love and being paid well for it because he couldn't compromise between quality and consistency. When you make what you love your career, when you really achieve your goals and dreams, you still have to make sacrifices to KEEP them. It's already been said by a number of others, but maybe my way of stating it makes it a little more understandable. Thunt is a GREAT guy, just from knowing him on his webcam feeds and his videos and posts and so on and so forth with the things he shares with us, but he hasn't quite figured out how to effectively and successfully manage his business and it shows. I'm hoping he figures that out before the goodwill he's accrued withers like so many other small businesses who couldn't balance the equation.

Webcomics are a bizarre industry business-wise. Not all of your customers pay, but the ones who do, you have to keep happy to keep them as paying customers, or they stop being paying customers and you stop making a living on it. It's a brutal balance to maintain sometimes. When you're the employer AND the employee, the terrifying day is even more terrifying when you have to fire yourself and get a new job. :\

EDIT IN HINDSIGHT: He needs to also learn to manage quality and consistency with TIME AND EFFORT! Constantly working overtime to meet a personal standard of quality will irreversibly destroy your health!

**I know he's Canadian! Shush! I'm not! Not many people HERE are living it either, but it's still a thing!

[RidcullyJack]

This IS his job now. The readership pays his bills. He needs to hold up his end of things to keep his day job just like anyone else. His paying and donating readership are his collective bosses because they effectively write his paychecks. You cannot say otherwise without appearing a complete fool and tool.

Wind it back a bit please. People can disagree with your opinion about Thunt's obligations without being fools or tools. Ad hominen arguments really don't help you make your case.

[Krulle]

This IS his job now. The readership pays his bills. He needs to hold up his end of things to keep his day job just like anyone else. His paying and donating readership are his collective bosses because they effectively write his paychecks. You cannot say otherwise without appearing a complete fool and tool.

Nope, I am not his boss, nor his client.
And no, I don't write his paycheck.
In normal situations (without the BF-business going on), the advertisers write the paycheck to Thunt.
They are THunts "boss". And they will be unhappy if the number of readers drops, as what they are paying for is: Attention.

It's the same reason why TV-stations don't care much about you: you are a tool which they need for their real customers: advertisers.
TV-stations sell attention. Advertisers buy that. The more attention they get, the likelier it is, that the price for advertisements is high.

So, yes, I can say otherwise, and not appearing a fool.

Webcomics are a bizarre industry business-wise. Not all of your customers pay,

See above. All customers pay. Otherwise their ads will be switched off.
Some webcomics sell ad-free memberships. Then the paying fans do become customers.
But the non-paying readers are just that: readers. The number of readers is used to attract advertisers, the real customers.
And readers with ad-blockers? They could be called thiefs, if they do not compensate the author differently, and thereby becoming customers or sponsors/philanthropists.



But currently, there is no donation drive going on (remember, the kickstarter money does not go to THunt, it goes to Evertide games), there are no advertisements (except for the KS-ads, and I doubt THunt is asking money for that).
So, no income for THunt right now.
I think he has more pressing problems right now, than reading our rants here.

[Ghormagon]

Morning all! Seems as though there seems to be a bit of misunderstanding on what I am trying to say, and I've tried to give the best explanation I could, but by the responses perhaps I am getting too wordy and long winded. So, will make a last ditch effort here...

I do have the right to say something, because what I am saying is not just indicative of myself, but of others like me as well. It's not about a single person, but an opinion and feedback on a product. And yes, it is a product. This free webcomic launches potential sales for the books, paved the way for the kickstarter, the plushies, etc. Literally, the revenue generating merchandise created because of the comic. Essentially, at this time, the comic IS THunt's advertising for the stuff he charges money for. Whether we like to admit it or not, this whole scenario taken together forms a business model.

Even though I didn't buy in to TF, or support the kickstarter, etc, my experience and what I am providing here is similar to THunt having a store front shop, and watching a customer walk through, admiring his merchandise, but then walking out without buying anything for whatever reason. Smart business people look at scenarios like that and evaluate if there is something more/better/different they can do with their business to make that sale. Yes, some are just window shoppers who pop through and really there is nothing to do to make the sale. However, that is not indicative of EVERY person passing through your shop, or what my experience was. I was ready to buy and move beyond being a window shopper, but if I am going to put my money on the table, i take a closer look at what I am buying. After taking a closer look is when I decided not too. That is the scenario captured here.

To address the loyal Goblins readers who are starting to get a little tired of seeing this type of thread pop up, read again what I wrote above. If an opinion or feedback is relaying the message where a portion of the target audience or customer base is not happy, as a business owner you need to listen. Whether fellow readers here like my opinion or not, I am very sorry, but I am a member of the fan community as well, and my voice is just as important (providing constructive criticism) as yours is.

I'm going to go back to being a silent and invisible fan, now that I've said my peace. It appears that a significant portion of the more active forum participants don't like to see these kinds of comments about our beloved comic.

[langerhans]

Because without pleasing at least the majority of that paying and donating readership, his business will begin to suffer and hemorrhage money until he has to get another not-making-his-beloved-comic job again

i have to disagree with this statement, with the introduction of the countdown clock thunt has given his readership a helpful tool to know when to check for updates, however this has not made him money. in fact the opposite is true, in this instance, as when updates were prone to be more erratic I and i think a lot of other readers ended up checking many times a day, resulting in a bunch more hits/advertiser income, but now having done his fans a favour, he has only the peak of view when a new comic is out.

also the whole crux of your argument seems to rely on the idea that goblins readers are incredibly fickle, and that the slightest depreciation in delivery or quality will cause people to leave en mass, when in fact Goblins has one of the most loyal followings out there

[brnforce]

...
also the whole crux of your argument seems to rely on the idea that goblins readers are incredibly fickle, and that the slightest depreciation in delivery or quality will cause people to leave en mass, when in fact Goblins has one of the most loyal followings out there

Yup! We can whine and bicker all day, but we keep coming back for or fix of Goblins!

[friedkitty]

I think they are referring more to the casual reader, or new readers. Those of us who are already hooked... we're hooked. But for new ones, it was a potential reason for them to not come back, or to not donate/buy things, etc...

That said, I think the countdown clock is awesome...and it works for THunt and us, so BRAVO!

Once the .com site is back, only then can he evaluate wether or not it is having an impact on ad revenue and adjust accordingly. Personally, I did not make a link straight to the forums, so that I HAVE to go to the main site at minimum of once per day in order to come here.

[Krulle]

Once the .com site is back, only then can he evaluate whether or not it is having an impact on ad revenue and adjust accordingly. Personally, I did not make a link straight to the forums, so that I HAVE to go to the main site at minimum of once per day in order to come here.

Well, I have tabbed bookmarks. I load a rather large reading list every morning. And every now and then I read one and close it. Later I look at the next. So, every working day I look at Goblinscomic.com at least once. Gobforum I reach by typing gobl and my browser already knows where I want to go.

[Tama]

This IS his job now. The readership pays his bills. He needs to hold up his end of things to keep his day job just like anyone else. His paying and donating readership are his collective bosses because they effectively write his paychecks. You cannot say otherwise without appearing a complete fool and tool.

Nope, I am not his boss, nor his client.
And no, I don't write his paycheck.
In normal situations (without the BF-business going on), the advertisers write the paycheck to Thunt.
They are THunts "boss". And they will be unhappy if the number of readers drops, as what they are paying for is: Attention.

It's the same reason why TV-stations don't care much about you: you are a tool which they need for their real customers: advertisers.
TV-stations sell attention. Advertisers buy that. The more attention they get, the likelier it is, that the price for advertisements is high.

So, yes, I can say otherwise, and not appearing a fool.

Webcomics are a bizarre industry business-wise. Not all of your customers pay,

See above. All customers pay. Otherwise their ads will be switched off.
Some webcomics sell ad-free memberships. Then the paying fans do become customers.
But the non-paying readers are just that: readers. The number of readers is used to attract advertisers, the real customers.
And readers with ad-blockers? They could be called thiefs, if they do not compensate the author differently, and thereby becoming customers or sponsors/philanthropists.



But currently, there is no donation drive going on (remember, the kickstarter money does not go to THunt, it goes to Evertide games), there are no advertisements (except for the KS-ads, and I doubt THunt is asking money for that).
So, no income for THunt right now.
I think he has more pressing problems right now, than reading our rants here.

You just made my point for me. Most tv series are cancelled because they lacked a high population of consistent viewers. Advertisement took a dive, the ad companies pulled out, etc. failure. Hell, the entire channel of G4 is a perfect example of "Hm... people still watch it... but not enough. Pull the plug." There will always be an undying fanbase in ANYTHING, but is it ever enough? Most likely not.

And it doesn't bring in the fact that Thunt will probably make himself very sick overworking like this.

[SeeAMoose]

@Ghormagon:

Again, that really wasn't meant to be directed at you, it was a general frustration that had been boiling up for awhile and something you said reminded me of it. There's a difference between what you are talking about and the circumstances I am describing. I am not so much talking about people who decide not to donate in the future because Tempts Fate was not complete as I am about people who appear to be visibly upset about Tempts Fate not being complete despite not donating (I think there is a difference). I definitely did a poor job explaining, and definitely rambled on too long without getting to my point completely. For that I apologize. (Busy Moose is busy... and tired... and less clearheaded than usual... because he's tired... and busy... and rambling).

I suppose most of all I was trying to draw attention to the fact that I have seen very few people who actually donated to the campaign posting similar complaints. In fact I can't think of any instances offhand (not saying they're not out there). My point here is that the lack of complaints from people who donated should tell you that a majority of the people who donated were satisfied with the experience. I can completely understand where you're coming from in terms of looking at it from an outsiders perspective. He didn't finish the bonus comic, and that is the most visible sign of the campaign. However, the cool stuff came from donating, and I am unaware of any remaining cases where he failed to deliver on that... and that was the hard part.

What it comes down to is that people do not pay enough attention to what was completed when they look at it from the outside, and have instead focused on the single portion that remains.

Thank you again for being so polite and direct. I hope you will stick around longer and check out some of the parts of the forum you may not have examined earlier (we can always use more levelheaded people in Controversy![super]TM[/super]

[langerhans]

And it doesn't bring in the fact that Thunt will probably make himself very sick overworking like this.

from twitter:
Thunt ÔÇÅ@Thunt_Goblins 18h
"Thunt, you work so hard!" No. I work so long. The actual work is the easiest, laziest thing ever. It's what bored kids do in math class.

[Liesmith]

Working long hours on an "easy" task is still overworking. He has also said that he gets stress headaches on update days. If a stressful job occupies too much of your time, it'll make you sick.

[Andolynne]

I don't care if he updates once a week, twice a week, or once a month. I just want him to update, hopefully regularly, with quality material.
Regardless of said regularity, I have been reading Goblins for years, and won't stop because he went to a Con and couldn't update for a week. I don't have any money to donate, and I've never been able to buy any of his products. While it's true that I don't have Adblocker on, I don't see his comic as a product that I'm purchasing, and so I don't feel entitled to demand to know exactly when I'll be getting it. (Not to say that I don't want it, the counter is a blessing from Herbert himself!!)
I do find it a little frustrating, yes, but that's because I love the comic and don't want to have to wait to see what is going to happen to them next! Not because I feel ripped off. THunt does his best to get the comics in on time, or at least post some filler, but as an artist I know how hard it is to work on a timeline. Drawing anything of quality takes time.