Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

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Strawberrycocoa
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Strawberrycocoa » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:50 am

I'm curious how her IME can be the pieces of the necklace if she had it mind-wiped from her recollection by Ruby.

Bapuvitttssf
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Bapuvitttssf » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:51 am

So, future Minmax grabbed Oblivious with his left hand, but the glove is the one from his right hand...
Right hand: glove covers all five fingers.
Left hand: glove covers only index and pinky.
Is it a coloring error?

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Generic
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Generic » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:05 am

Strawberrycocoa wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:50 am
I'm curious how her IME can be the pieces of the necklace if she had it mind-wiped from her recollection by Ruby.
Not only mind wiped. The necklace never existed.
Bapuvitttssf wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:51 am
So, future Minmax grabbed Oblivious with his left hand, but the glove is the one from his right hand...
Right hand: glove covers all five fingers.
Left hand: glove covers only index and pinky.
Is it a coloring error?
Don't worry. It's DnD. Armour shift around all the time. 8)
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by WearsHats » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:57 pm

Bapuvitttssf wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:51 am
So, future Minmax grabbed Oblivious with his left hand, but the glove is the one from his right hand...
Right hand: glove covers all five fingers.
Left hand: glove covers only index and pinky.
Is it a coloring error?
Good catch!
Elli wrote:Oh crumbs and pennies! That's a total mistake. Please thank them for bringing it to my attention. I'll have it fixed, soon.
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Arrow
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Arrow » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:47 am

For those wondering why the sudden interest if MM will note that Kin's IME spells her name (I know it took me a minute to figure it out...) -


Kin and MM forgot about the necklace when it was dropped into an oblivion in the Maze of Many, and that necklace was the start of the bond between them (at least from Kin's point of view).
But they can certainly still re-remember it when seeing very strong hint of its existence, like Forgoth re-remembered his beard when it was recreated (at least that is one possible interpretation...)

I guess the IME is not a strong enough hint for Kin, because she knows her name is spelled K I N, but for MM it just might be...

So I bet/hope next page will be something like -

> "Kin, your IME spells your name.. it reminds me of something... it looks like just that necklace I made you!",
> "oh yea! now I remember the necklace? how did I forget? it must have fallen into the pits in the Maze of Many! I love you MM!"

But then, it might not go this way, and thats ok. Its possible that to re-remember then necklace it has to be re-created (like the beard) or its even possible only the Psionic gears are cable of re-rembmering oblivion. Kin already shown she cares deeply for MM even without the necklace - she chose to find him for this reason, so its not a big deal.

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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by RidcullyJack » Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:14 am

Arrow wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:47 am
But then, it might not go this way, and thats ok. Its possible that to re-remember then necklace it has to be re-created (like the beard) or its even possible only the Psionic gears are cable of re-rembmering oblivion.
I thought that the Psionic gears were storing time=zero copies of everything in the Maze of Many, so that things once destroyed by the reset could be brought to their original entry condition, and PsiMax was warping their use to rebuild copies of that time=zero copy (intentionally a full copy of himself, unintentionally copies of Kin's tail, Forgath's beard, and Minmax's eye/scar).
So the Psionic gears weren't creating something that was obliviated, they were rebuilding from a template in an in-universe saved game file.

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Generic
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Generic » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:53 pm

I would be very surprised if MinMax did not trade his ability to think of anagrams for a +1 to hit.
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by WearsHats » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:03 pm

That would be tricky, considering he already traded away his literacy.
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Generic » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:48 am

WearsHats wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:03 pm
That would be tricky, considering he already traded away his literacy.
Still, he's obviously able to write. Albeit with bad spelling.
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Lightning Lance
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Lightning Lance » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:15 pm

RidcullyJack wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:14 am
Arrow wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:47 am
But then, it might not go this way, and thats ok. Its possible that to re-remember then necklace it has to be re-created (like the beard) or its even possible only the Psionic gears are cable of re-rembmering oblivion.
I thought that the Psionic gears were storing time=zero copies of everything in the Maze of Many, so that things once destroyed by the reset could be brought to their original entry condition, and PsiMax was warping their use to rebuild copies of that time=zero copy (intentionally a full copy of himself, unintentionally copies of Kin's tail, Forgath's beard, and Minmax's eye/scar).
So the Psionic gears weren't creating something that was obliviated, they were rebuilding from a template in an in-universe saved game file.
I think it has to be an out-of-universe save file. Or at least something bigger than the one universe, or universe-sim, whatever it is. Otherwise, the save file would have been lost as well.

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Glemp
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Glemp » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:33 pm

Re. Oblivion, the holes Psimax created were obviously flawed, as he noted himself. Once something falls in there, the object itself is destroyed as are any memories of it, but history is not rewritten. We saw this when Minmax started throwing his clothes in the hole, and as her memories were modified, Kin noticed how strange it was that MM came all this way with one boot on. If history truly changed, then MM would have made an effort to get an other one, like when he bought new pants and a sword in Brassmoon. Similarly, Kin's memories of the necklace vanished, but the marks it left on her soul remained, like the shape of a stone removed from clay.

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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by WearsHats » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:51 am

The psionic gears were specifically in the dungeon control room so they wouldn't reset. Also, the death counter in the room was part of the reset process. Destroying it prevents you from fully resetting, which should mean it's possible to be shielded from the reset effect.

But, yes, Glemp is correct. The oblivion holes aren't "perfect oblivion." They erase the object and memories of it, but they don't alter pre-Maze history. That leaves logical inconsistencies from which deductions and inferences can be made.

When the necklace was destroyed, Kin said "I do trust you. ... But why do I trust you?" Minmax insisted that he "Sees" her, because for him things hadn't changed much. But the necklace was a key turning point for Kin, so she couldn't understand or trust her emotions. Her last sight of Minmax was of his bleeding hand, which showed her that they do See each other. From there, she could deduce that some object must have been obliviated. So she came back to look for him.

When she arrives back in our world, we see her IME. The necklace is part of it because it's the symbol of her soulmate connection with Minmax, which hasn't changed. She just doesn't remember it. It's still an important part of the person she is now. What we also see is her thought bubble telling us that she doesn't know why those letters are part of her IME. Hopefully, she'll figure it out. But it's still cool that they're such a fundamental part of her.
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Glemp » Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:47 am

RidcullyJack wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:14 am
I thought that the Psionic gears were storing time=zero copies of everything in the Maze of Many, so that things once destroyed by the reset could be brought to their original entry condition, and PsiMax was warping their use to rebuild copies of that time=zero copy (intentionally a full copy of himself, unintentionally copies of Kin's tail, Forgath's beard, and Minmax's eye/scar).
So the Psionic gears weren't creating something that was obliviated, they were rebuilding from a template in an in-universe saved game file.
MM got his scar from Complains, well before he entered the Maze. It could be that the gears simply recreate anything that comes near them, based on the body parts of their alternate selves. Or it's simply very powerful healing magic :kseliss:

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Generic
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Generic » Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:28 am

I think altkin said it would heal injuries.
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by WearsHats » Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:19 am

Yes. The reconstruction gear of the machine will heal hit points and replace wounded or scarred tissue with magically generated matter.

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/08252013-2

As Glemp said, it doesn't matter when the tissue was scarred or destroyed because it worked on Minmax's injury from when Complains first came out of the Poorly Locked Chest. What's interesting is that replacing Forgath's beard also seems to have restored memory of it.
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Velgar
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Velgar » Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:27 pm

I think the oblivion-holes work kinda like Photoshop's (or your equivalent photo-editor) Wand. It picks whatever you throw into it and deletes it, albeit in far more dimensions than your usual Photoshop Wand.

So when it disappears, you still have everything related to it, just missing the exact "shape" of the thing thrown into oblivion. Like the trust. You have the picture of the trust-meadow, but there's a big hole in the existence-picture where the pendant-flower was in middle of the picture after Altkin threw it into the hole. You still see it's flower-shaped, like Kin probably roughly remembers a weight around her neck, but when she tries to remember the exact thing that caused it, the flower-shaped hole is there and nothing more.

On random note, new here and curious on how you're supposed to set the signature. Says UCP, but I'll be darned if I can find anything there where to put one. XD

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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by WearsHats » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:00 pm

Welcome, Velgar. Some stuff, like boards signatures, needs you to have a couple of posts under your belt before it unlocks.

I like your photoshop analogy. I think that makes sense.
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Generic » Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:59 am

I think the oblivion things mainly is a sword and sorcery trope. It's supposed to be sinister and horrible, and there for the hero to overcome through bravery.
With that in the back, love trumphs all, is the only reason I can see Kins current IDE being possible. The more you specify (and make exceptions to it) the more you drain the horror of psymaxs plan
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by WearsHats » Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:44 am

Elli has explained in detail multiple times. There are specific rules, and they're consistent.

The oblivion holes are not "perfect oblivion." They're spillover from the machine, which was still a work in progress. Had the machine been completed, the entire multiverse would have been eliminated and replaced with pure nothingness.

Things that go into the oblivion holes are erased, along with all memories of them, but it doesn't change the past, so it's possible to figure out what was erased with logical deduction.

Minmax and Kin See each other, which is a rare magical soul-deep bonding. That happened before the necklace was obliviated. Memories of the necklace being erased confused Kin and left her with doubts, but the bond wasn't erased. It just took her a little time and proof to understand that. The idea of the necklace remains part of who she is, even if she doesn't remember why.

It's all consistent. No exceptions being made.
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Generic
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Generic » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:56 pm

I don't remember that. There was no paradox because 0=1, hence psymax could prove things never existed. It never actually doing that is nothing I remember. Was that in comic or on twitter? Because I don't follow that.
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Krulle » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:40 am

Late to the party, but still, for those interested (sketch of panel 1):
@EllipsisGoblins wrote:There's no denying it. This is accidentally the dirtiest pic of Minmax I've ever drawn.
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(Image spoiler'ed to reduce post size)


Regarding achiving oblivion by Psimax:

There was some in-comic explanation by Psymax, but it's all rather irrelevant on HOW he does it.
In the pocket universe of the Dungeon Crawl he could find out all equations, completely, leaving nothing unaccounted for, and thus "prove that one equals zero": https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12062011/

Well, he then finds out he missed something (here). He then thinks it's real love (here), and later finds out someone is messing with his oblivion (here), and that it is the sword (here)...

That explains why he failed three times so far in this Maze's run.

But HOW does the machine work?
In this comic, the three Kins find out that his psionic gear alter universe constant, and he does this to remove paradoxical aspects of "0=1", and once he remvoed all paradoxes by altering the constants of the universe, the universe will fall into oblivion.
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Arrow » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:39 pm

I just wanted to say, thank you!

Thank you Krulle - you have excellent memory and your links made me reread the Psi-Max scenes - which was so much fun! Its my favorite part of the comic.

And thank you WearHats and Glemp, your explanations about the nature of the oblivion holes are excellent, it removed much confusion and (wrong) inconsistencies.

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Nina
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Nina » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:34 am

Glemp wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:33 pm
Re. Oblivion, the holes Psimax created were obviously flawed, as he noted himself. Once something falls in there, the object itself is destroyed as are any memories of it, but history is not rewritten.
...
Similarly, Kin's memories of the necklace vanished, but the marks it left on her soul remained, like the shape of a stone removed from clay.
Very good point Glemp!!! I had not thought of that, this way, but you are totally right!

+1 for you!

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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Nerre » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:16 am

sunphoenix wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:21 pm
Hmmm..where is Kin's paper psuedo-dragon familiar?
Didn't she toss him out of the small gap to notify Minmax and he was with Minmax for a while?
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Re: Feb 24th, 2020 - Um... hello.

Post by Nerre » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:25 am

Lightning Lance wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:15 pm
RidcullyJack wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:14 am
Arrow wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:47 am
But then, it might not go this way, and thats ok. Its possible that to re-remember then necklace it has to be re-created (like the beard) or its even possible only the Psionic gears are cable of re-rembmering oblivion.
I thought that the Psionic gears were storing time=zero copies of everything in the Maze of Many, so that things once destroyed by the reset could be brought to their original entry condition, and PsiMax was warping their use to rebuild copies of that time=zero copy (intentionally a full copy of himself, unintentionally copies of Kin's tail, Forgath's beard, and Minmax's eye/scar).
So the Psionic gears weren't creating something that was obliviated, they were rebuilding from a template in an in-universe saved game file.
I think it has to be an out-of-universe save file. Or at least something bigger than the one universe, or universe-sim, whatever it is. Otherwise, the save file would have been lost as well.
Reminds me of a bag of holding or protable hole. So better don't bring that IME close to one of those, it might tear a hole between the planes. ;)
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