Whiteleaf OOC

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willpell
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Whiteleaf OOC

Post by willpell » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:08 am

Synch wrote:Also, can we please have an OOC thread?
No, never.
Synch wrote:Though I suppose when you spend an eternity alone and your humanity elfity slips away, exceptions can be made!
Exactly. The description was of typical elves, and you're anything but.
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by Quarg » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:49 am

After sleeping on it...I realized my anti-Dnd elf argument could be boiled simply down to a distaste for Utopia/Distopia types of civilization concepts, even for a multi-thousand year leaving alien species (like elves). It is ultimately really a reflection of the author's own preconceptions of 'perfection' than a more realistic balancing of the benefits and cons of the same attributes of the civilization.

Which is why I prefer the elves of say Errant Story to those of DnD core. They have very negative derivative attributes that are from their racial/sociatal core attributes.
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by spiderwrangler » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:15 am

The foofy elves never appealed to me RP wise, nor do I think I could do it justice, hence the outcast wood elf.
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by Amara » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:32 am

Haha, I suppose my Elevar did fall in to the 'foofier' category, but there was also a certain delight in playing the son of a noble sun elf family...who's fae bloodline was beginning to manifest and cause absolutely manic behavior, horrifying his parents. 8D
I do or don't like elves depending on setting, though my favorite would have to probably be Forgotten Realm's moon elves, just because they don't fall in to the same tropes as other elves. Impulsive, communal, sometimes nomadic elves who take personal delight in wandering and seeing the world? Yes please. There's something I love about the idea of a longer lived race that still never tires of seeing what the world has to offer.
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by willpell » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:06 pm

Amara wrote:I do or don't like elves depending on setting, though my favorite would have to probably be Forgotten Realm's moon elves, just because they don't fall in to the same tropes as other elves. Impulsive, communal, sometimes nomadic elves who take personal delight in wandering and seeing the world? Yes please.
Wait, that isn't the standard (non-wood) elf?
There's something I love about the idea of a longer lived race that still never tires of seeing what the world has to offer.
Precisely. I picture them as Joie De Vivre incarnate, yet with no fear of death.
Hello, my hobbies include ruining 'perfect' elves, apparently.[/s]
Portraying the elves as "perfect" is one of the better ways of ruining them. They should have flaws just as any being must, but their flaws must reflect their nature. Detachment from reality is one of the best options; outright decadence is a higher-octane option.
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by Amara » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:15 pm

Whether it's the standard elf or not tends to vary wildly depending on particular setting in D&D, and on how they decided to differentiate the different types of elf in them.
In terms of Sun vs Moon elf, (which is Forgotten Realms) the Sun elves tend to be more reserved and insular, rarely leaving their cities...and they also tend to look down on their Moon elf brethren as being "childish.'
Naturally, Moon elves tend to see Sun elves as rather stuffy, in return.

Though the full characterization of Moon elves in general just tends to have them as being almost overbearingly friendly and gregarious, with the general moon elf mindset being that other races have much to teach them, and that spreading knowledge between races benefits everyone.
The Sun elves, on the other hand, tend to fear their culture being 'diluted further,' which Moon elves generally consider to be a ridiculous fear.
Forgotten Realms did a lot of other things I don't like quite as much, but I do love the setting's characterization of elves.

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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by willpell » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:02 pm

Amara wrote:Forgotten Realms did a lot of other things I don't like quite as much, but I do love the setting's characterization of elves.
I like Sun Elves as a general concept (and mechanics - +2 INT, woot!), but they're very easy to do as the Better Than You stereotype. This is why in my setting, I portray them as being a little on the corrupt side, though only beginning to go that route - another race is much further along, another still has already gone over the edge, and one more might be anywhere on the spectrum, nobody can tell. But that still leaves plenty of subraces of elf that are still basically Good across the board. The "high" or moon elves, whose proper name translates roughly to "friendly elves" or "elves that are everywhere", are the default, and they fall somewhere in the vicinity of how RotW describes them, though individual exceptions are common.
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by Amara » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:24 pm

I felt it was meant to be an honest comparison where "Neither were right," so to speak... such as Moon elves having an inclination toward Sorcery (more impulsive natures, quick thinking, moving on their feet,) vs Sun elves and their inclination toward Wizardry (with their dedication and drive to instead build large, grand cities.)
The idea being a happy medium inbetween would be better, but... the natural inclination was people just tried to use Sun elves for yet more horrible stereotypes.

I prefer moon elves, but that's more because I like playing charisma characters. I've had plenty of sun elves over the years, and loved every last one of them.

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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by BadgeAddict » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:14 am

Zaks like elves......

because they taste like rainbows. >:D

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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by spiderwrangler » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:19 am

So that's why Kast woke up to being licked by a lizard...
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by BadgeAddict » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:22 am

Nah, you're a wood elf...you taste like bark......

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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by willpell » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:44 am

Amara wrote:I felt it was meant to be an honest comparison where "Neither were right," so to speak... such as Moon elves having an inclination toward Sorcery (more impulsive natures, quick thinking, moving on their feet,) vs Sun elves and their inclination toward Wizardry (with their dedication and drive to instead build large, grand cities.)
Which is analogy fail, because the Wizard class is just plain better than Sorcerer in pretty much every way.
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by Amara » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:04 am

Eh, yes and no. Given ample planning time, the wizard will win, yes. Forced to think on their feet, with no time to prepare? The sorcerer will. Both have their place. Pure class, I prefer wizard. But sorcerer has a lot of really fun prestiges.

And if you really want more spells than sense, there's always the ultimate magus prestige class, which is simply awesome.

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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by willpell » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:17 am

Amara wrote:Eh, yes and no. Given ample planning time, the wizard will win, yes. Forced to think on their feet, with no time to prepare? The sorcerer will.
The Sorcerer has only a few spells known, and more importantly gets each spell "grade" (as I call them to minimize the confusion of over-use of the word "level") a full level sooner. A 3rd-level wizard is light-years more powerful than a 3rd-level sorcerer because he has access to 2nd-grade spells; ditto for 5th, 7th, and 9th, and even at the even-numbered levels where the sorcerer catches up, it's likely that they're equal at best. Whatever advantages the sorcerer derives from not having to prepare, the wizard can fairly easily duplicate with a good selection of versatile prepared spells, the Alacritous Cogitation feat, reserve feats that he qualifies for sooner and can take as bonus feats, and so forth.
Both have their place. Pure class, I prefer wizard. But sorcerer has a lot of really fun prestiges.
The feats and prestige classes associated with sorcerer are usually about how dragony they are, but they are not generally all that useful from what I've seen. "Fun" perhaps, but hardly all that effective. +1 natural armor doesn't mean much compared to the ability to turn ethereal for 7 minutes, for example. A weak breath weapon usable every 1d4 rounds seems nice and might pay off in a long-term dungeon crawl, but the wizard who novas all his Fireballs in fifteen minutes and then spends eight hours sleeping in a Secure Shelter is probably going to still outcompete whatever the Sorcerer has.

I wish the two classes were both equally viable, but I have yet to see a way of making it happen. If you do favors for the sorcerer like bumping his spell progression back a level, then suddenly he's more powerful; making him exactly equal doesn't seem possible.
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by Amara » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:42 am

When I say no preparation, I do mean that. If the party is ambushed and the wizard has no time to prepare his spells, he's pretty well screwed. Granted, he'll have whatever wasn't spent from the day before, but that's not necessarily going to help him much. Of course, if the DM makes a habit of that, that's probably the point that the wizard then makes a habit of sleeping in a rope trick.
Admitted, this is one of the places I feel pathfinder handled the sorcerer better. The idea of having multiple arcane bloodlines, and giving bonus bits of power based on which yours is was fantastic. (Dragon? Dragon like traits. Potential breath weapon, late game you could get wings, etc. Fae? Traceless step and abilities like a touch attack that denies your opponent a turn by making them collapse in to laughter.) I know there WAS a bloodline progression setup for 3.5, but as I recall it was treated as class levels and was a bit cumbersome. Hmm. I swear I remember reading something else with the idea of considerations made for non-draconic arcane bloodlines. I'll need to look back in to it. There was likely something I missed.

As far as prestige, I'll probably always adore arcane trickster. You CAN do it with wizard, but it works so much better with sorcerer from my experience.

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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by BadgeAddict » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:45 am

I promise I'm not trying to start shit with the new character....i just want to hug him...

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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by willpell » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:18 am

Amara wrote:When I say no preparation, I do mean that. If the party is ambushed and the wizard has no time to prepare his spells, he's pretty well screwed. Granted, he'll have whatever wasn't spent from the day before, but that's not necessarily going to help him much.
If the wizard has expended all his spells for the day, then the sorcerer probably has too (he does get more, but they're weaker so he'll need more of them, and it probably evens out). Both of them have no spells until they've slept for 8 hours; I think the Wizard only needs 15 minutes, or maybe an hour, to prepare spells for the day. So during that brief window of time, the sorcerer has an advantage. But this pales compared to the four extra hours per day that a non-mage can get just by being an elf.
Of course, if the DM makes a habit of that, that's probably the point that the wizard then makes a habit of sleeping in a rope trick.
Make that a Leomund's Secure Shelter; Rope Trick doesn't create a floor in my game, just an endless rope stretching through space, so while it's good for a brief hiding-place while you wait for a guard patrol or something to go by, it's impossible to sleep in. (And don't start with trying to rig up a suspended platform or anything; monkeying with the spell like that will almost certainly cause it to fail. A 2nd-grade spell does not let you entirely vanish from the universe for eight hours while you replenish the spell slot that created it; I'm annoyed enough that a 4th-grade one does, but since it's contemporary with Polymorph and Dimension Door and such, I figure I'll let that one slide.)
Admitted, this is one of the places I feel pathfinder handled the sorcerer better. The idea of having multiple arcane bloodlines, and giving bonus bits of power based on which yours is was fantastic. (Dragon? Dragon like traits. Potential breath weapon, late game you could get wings, etc. Fae? Traceless step and abilities like a touch attack that denies your opponent a turn by making them collapse in to laughter.)
It's a neat idea, but frankly I prefer for base classes to be simple and not require that amount of reading to comprehend their basic capabilities. Save the shopping through a list for Feats and Spells and such; doing it for a base class's features strikes me as too much work just to get the barest outline of the character.
I know there WAS a bloodline progression setup for 3.5, but as I recall it was treated as class levels and was a bit cumbersome. Hmm. I swear I remember reading something else with the idea of considerations made for non-draconic arcane bloodlines. I'll need to look back in to it. There was likely something I missed.
No idea what you're thinking of; what I know on the subject is just Draconic and Heritage feats that let you give your sorcerer a bunch of little bennies for being more nearly a dragon or having fiendish or fey or whatever ancestry. Which are cute, but not nearly sufficient to equalize the classes I suspect. At least not at low levels. By the time you're up to level 15, the fact that the wizard has 9ths and the sorcerer only has 8ths probably makes little enough difference (unless the gm is soft on what you can accomplish with Wish). But at level 5, the Wizard just makes the sorcerer look like a drooling moron.
As far as prestige, I'll probably always adore arcane trickster. You CAN do it with wizard, but it works so much better with sorcerer from my experience.
Perhaps once you start playing that's true, but a sorcerer takes one extra level to qualify, and even for a wizard it requires a minimum of level 8 (barring tricks of the kind I'd probably veto) to get enough levels of wizard and rogue to meet its prereqs. So waiting one more level on top of that is painful to my way of thinking.
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by Amara » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:01 am

You might get time to sleep, but not have the extra hour to prepare spells. (The 15 minutes per spell thing is part of a variant rule that lets wizards swap their spells out if they take time to stop and re-prepare, at 15 minutes per spell or another hour to re-prepare everything.)

On a very basic, basic level the wizard is better, yes. It's the reason absolute minmaxers prefer them. Unlimited potential spells known, can prepare anything? Yes. Whereas a sorcerer is more apt to take spells that are always going to perform. They have to. Unfortunately, the wizard requires prep time. The wizard might prepare the wrong spells for the day and need to take time to re-prepare. (And boy have I been there.) Similarly, the sorcerer lacks the wizard's spellbook vulnerability. The spellbook could be stolen or sundered the same way a spell component pouch could be. The sorcerer also has the benefit of always having his full spell pool per level to pull from, whereas once the wizard uses up a slot, he doesn't have that spell anymore unless he prepared it multiple times. At the end of the day, the wizard and sorcerer have probably spent the same amount of spells, but the sorcerer still has the same number of spells to choose from. Only thought to prepare deep slumber once? Oops, too bad you need it again.
There are ways to give spontaneous casters more spells, as well, through magic items... though most of these magic items were from magazine issues. Knowstones are nice at least. (They were from #333, along with a lot of really awesome flaws designed for casters that actually didn't feel terrible.) Add on a feat here and there to increase that versatility, like versatile spellcaster (which I have on Cassien,) and you get even more flexible. It's true that wizards can accomplish the same with the spell Mnemonic Enhancer, but that again requires spell preparation to do so. (As the spell takes 10 minutes, making it unsuitable on the fly.)

Basically, a pure minmaxer/optimizer will probably go wizard every time, but there are definite pros and cons to both in play.Maybe I'm the only DM that ever actually has baddies go for the spellbook. Geeze, I feel like a jerk if so.

There's no denying the wizard is more mechanically powerful, but sometimes quick-fire flexibility is a very powerful thing. ...unless someone just loads a sorc with nothing but nuke spells, never uses know-stones, and is only playing a sorcerer because they don't know how to utilize the class fully. Then it's just sad. :C (I knew a guy like that. ONLY EVER PLAYED NUKE MAGES, refused to ever play prepared casters. He'd get angry when the prepared casters outperformed him every single time, because he really had NO IDEA what he was doing, but was convinced he should be more powerful than them. Unfortunately, the guy was the little cousin of a friend and had to be included. augdfhfddfh)

Incidentally, I'm working on obtaining a complete collection of the magazines in pdf format, and will be perfectly happy to share that collection as needed.
Last edited by Amara on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by Quarg » Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:37 am

Which is what appealed to me more about the sorcerer...the ability to cast a retinue of spells with the most flexibility in terms of unanticipated engagements....but a wizard is far more powerful in terms of anticipated engagements. But I've seldom been in a situation of knowing what was beyond the doors...making a wizard seem horridly flawed...
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by Amara » Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:46 am

Oh, a player with a good sense of what to prepare and when with a wizard can do some amazing things, but both classes have their place.

I've probably thrown more plans awry with less powerful, more utility casters than I ever have with a wizard, however. (What, I CAN'T toss a bag of marbles marbles with noise-based spells cast on them in to a room?)

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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by Synch » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:20 pm

Sorry if I'm a bit quiet guys, I'm still trying to work out how to roleplay this character and situation. Would Dalsein just stand there inebriated and sullen? Would he be aggressive and hostile? So many decisions, and I really don't want to muck with Will's intended story or get the group into too much trouble!
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by willpell » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:34 pm

Aggressiveness might well be in-character but would antagonize the DM's stumbling steps toward a plot, so I'd encourage "inebriated and sudden" (or possibly even "impressed", since this guy does look a fair bit like Eileen and not very much like anyone else).
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by willpell » Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:28 pm

Incidentally, if I'm reading the rules for Draconic Invocations right, there's never any cost other than time to use them, unless the invocation specifically says so? They're Spell-Like, so they can be foiled by Concentration failures or Arcane Spell Failure, but even if those things happen, you can just try again in a round. And the only real limit on how often they can be used is the number of actions you can devote to their performance. EG Endure Exposure has a range of Touch, but nothing stops Eileen from walking around high-fiving everyone in town and rendering them all immune to her breath weapon. Is this true? As long as it's true only of effects as pathetic as Endure Elements, I'll live, but the precedent worries me in case some of the higher-level invocations do more.
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by Quarg » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:58 pm

First, I found no limit to the number of Invocations she can issue per day only invocations known...but I will double check...
A dragonfire adept can use any invocation she knows at will.
I would say yes...but a good number of them last twenty four hours anyway...

Edit: When you gave him Commander was that a title or a rank? (Say he's the Commander of the local district like a base commander)
A title would be say like the person in charge of a naval vessel is a Captain
even if his rank is say at Lt. Commander...
Which would make more sense than my initial thoughts below...

Problems with a rank of Commander versus him just being the commander:
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Re: Whiteleaf OOC

Post by willpell » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:41 am

A 24-hour duration is fine for personal effects, but when you can theoretically apply Endure Exposure to as many as 14,400 people in one day, before having to have them circle back and play Pattycake with you for another 6 seconds in order to maintain their immunity, that's when I have to wonder if some text was omitted from the printed copy.

This is a fantasy kingdom, the military ranks are whatever the hell I decide they are, based mostly on how the words sound. A "Commander" is someone who commands; whatever silly reason the US Army has for not using that title would not apply in D&D Land (unless I decided it did).
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
My long-neglected blog.

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