Kore Discussion / Speculation

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Wolfie » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:56 pm

THunt has said that Kore is a CORE rulebook Paladin.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by predator » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:57 pm

ah, i'l check those out for some information then.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by predator » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:20 pm

Very well:
DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE 2 is a CORE book right?

I found something on the matter:

MODIFIED ALIGNMENTS
Dungeon Masters planning unconventional campaigns
might also consider modifi cations to the alignment system.
Again, dramatic changes to a major rules component
are not to be taken lightly. Many spells and magic items
depend on the alignment system for their effect. Changes
to alignment will disproportionately reduce the effectiveness
of paladins and clerics, whose signature abilities
depend on it. Beginning players fi nd alignment invaluable
as they fi rst learn to add motivation and personality to their
characters. Plenty of experienced gamers enjoy the rocksolid
certitude of the alignment system and donÔÇÖt want you
mucking with it. TheyÔÇÖve come to vanquish evildoers, and
the alignment system allows them to confi dently identify
enemies in need of smiting.
That said, a group that prefers adventures revolving
around intrigue and characterization might want to
discard alignment altogether, or make it more fuzzy and
subjective, as real-world morality usually seems. Many
standard alignment-related spells can short-circuit a typical
mystery plot. Television-show detectives would fi nd
their work easy if they had an array of detect evil spells at
their disposal.
You can create a world of subjective morality without
completely discarding alignment. In this case, a wielder of
alignment magic might be able to detect or target beings
and objects that share her beliefs, along with those who
oppose them. A user of the same magic with different
beliefs might get another set of results entirely.
For most campaigns, changes to alignment will be a
simple matter of reinterpretation. As an example, consider
a setting in which nobles adhere to a stringent code of
personal honor. In this culture, it is not only acceptable
but morally necessary to fi ght and kill people who insult
you, provided that you do it within a tightly constrained
set of social rules. In such a society, a lawful good person
would be one who follows both the spirit and the letter
of the honor code. The lawful evil person would fi ght for
his honor, but cheat to defeat his opponents. Chaotic good
characters might ignore the rules of conduct and deny the
nobilityÔÇÖs claim to special status. Alignment might even be
a matter of social class: the nobility is lawful, the merchant
class neutral, and the working man chaotic.
If your alignment system deviates from the norm, or
if youÔÇÖre keeping the system but altering the defi nitions,
include this information in the campaign pack you prepare
for the players (see the sidebar on page 77). Alignments can
be confusing, so make your alterations, and the reasons
behind them, as clear as possible.
Alignments usefully telescope complicated issues
of behavior and morality into a simple framework for
the purpose of a fun adventure game. By widening the
telescope or changing its focus, you can make your game
memorableÔÇöor drive your players crazy with head-twisting
philosophical questions. If you spend big chunks of
each session dealing with alignment issues, you should
probably rethink your approach.

A funny TEXT i found which Thunt might have applied to Kore:

FORTIFYING DEFENSE [SYNERGY]
Fortifi cation, already one of the most powerful armor
special abilities, becomes even more intriguing with the
addition of the fortifying defense synergy ability. This
power builds off the fortifi cation quality by crippling an
enemyÔÇÖs ability to deal damageÔÇöeven against targets other
than the wearer.
Description: Fortifying defense armor is built to make
the wearer look like an impregnable fortress of defense.
Even light armor with this special ability looks sturdier
than normal.
When armor with the fortifying defense ability negates
a critical hit or sneak attack, it seems to grow around the
wearer. In contrast, the creature that made the critical hit
or sneak attack against the wearer seems to wilt, as if the
armorÔÇÖs increasing bulk were sapping its strength.
Prerequisite: The fortifying defense ability can be
added only to armor or a shield that already has the light,
moderate, or heavy fortifi cation special ability.

___

Anyways... it's easy to get lost in the books so i'll check for more exposition to add some other time.
I might shift my focus from allignment to curse. Since i believe (and so does the fortuneteller youngandbieutiful) that kore suffers from some kind of curse. Hmmm if i find something about it in the core books... should i tell you about it? might be a spoiler... :paranoia:

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by wrecan » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:39 pm

predator wrote:MY POINT: it is possible for paladins to be evil. It depends on their allignment. What kind of paladin are you?
If these variant optional rules were available in Thunt's world, Young and Beautiful would not have been surprised that Kore remains a paladin. She just would have shrugged and thought, "Oh. I guess Kore is a paladin of slaughter."

And, no DMG2 is not a core rulebook. The 3e Core Rulebooks had "Core Rulebook" on the cover. Those books are the PLayer's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by kijihir » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:09 pm

I am not a player of D&D, nor have I ever played.
However, I do have a theory:

Kore is an NPC who was originally intended to be a driving force of the plot. However, due to the zany actions of his players, Herbert was unable to include him as intended, and had to drop his original idea before the character even appeared in story. Still, his role was integral, so Herbert retconned him into some sort of vigilante, hoping that his players wouldn't question the dramatic alterations. This would be supported by the fact that, as far as the characters are concerned, Herbert is a God, and if he house rules a few questions about alignment, no big deal.

If anyone has posted this before, I sincerely apologize.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by BuildsLegos » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:17 pm

Aha! I knew the faces on Kore's wings were his victims! Both Targoth and the axe/shield orc can be seen while he's healing Chief!
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Almightyquad » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:53 am

An unwilling evil act, is still an evil act. Therefore; a paladin commiting an evil act, must seek atonement before regaining his paladin levels.

He cannot be an evil paladin, evil paladins can only use negative energy. Lay on hands (In this care, healing) is positive energy. That rules out any variant classes.

Paladins aren't allowed to fight dirty, which he clearly does when he tortures Chief. This is where I get kind of stumped. I can see why a paladin is allowed to kill a dwarven child with a really flimsy excuse. But fighting dirty? No. He is supposed to chase down the "evil-doers", not torture someone so they can get closer. (This is from the part of the code of conduct stating: act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using posion, and so forth)) Now, is it honorable to use missile weapons against foes that use melee weapons? Well, no DM would rule that it is, so this will slide.

Kore shouldn't be a paladin, but yet he is. This is probably because his god has sent him on this quest, this gives him abit more leniency to commit acts which are no befitting to a paladin. He is acting directly for his god, this is probably why he is still a paladin.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by gamecreator » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:09 am

Almightyquad wrote:An unwilling evil act, is still an evil act. Therefore; a paladin commiting an evil act, must seek atonement before regaining his paladin levels.
Ex-Paladins: A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all special abilities and spells, including the service of the paladin's warhorse. She also may not progress in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities if she atones for her violations, as appropriate.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD3e:Paladin

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by boneguard » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:32 am

gamecreator wrote:
Almightyquad wrote:An unwilling evil act, is still an evil act. Therefore; a paladin commiting an evil act, must seek atonement before regaining his paladin levels.
Ex-Paladins: A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all special abilities and spells, including the service of the paladin's warhorse. She also may not progress in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities if she atones for her violations, as appropriate.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD3e:Paladin
An unwilling act of evil can still lead to a gross violation of his code of conduct. And even then, he's still need to seek atonement.

Previous edition were more clear: Evil act -willing or unwilling- would cause a lost of status. An unwilling act could be Atoned and thus regain his status of paladin. A Willing act of evil was a definitive and irreversible lost of Status.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Trojan » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:41 am

I wonder if Kore is technically still a paladin because the curse means that he isn't willfully committing evil, he's lost his paladin abilities due to involuntary evil but the curse replaces the lost powers with similar powers fueled by the souls of the innocents that Kore slaughters - every time we've seen Kore using a "paladin ability" it's been accompanied by the screaming spectral heads of his innocent victims (which could of course be IME).

Kore's curse means that he can't comprehend that by killing potential evil-doers and using torture that he is committing evil because the curse has removed his ability to feel mercy, compassion, maxed out his end-justifies-the-means mentality, etc. Kore has in fact "proof" that he's still doing good because he has "kept" his powers so he doesn't seek an explanation of why he's fallen or seek to "cure" himself - it would make a wonderful quest for a junior paladin to redeem their fallen elder.

I continue to believe that an alignment system that after 30+ years still leaves gamers arguing over the meaning of good/evil and law/chaos could have been better thought through ;-)

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by T' Northerner » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:09 am

BuildsLegos wrote:Aha! I knew the faces on Kore's wings were his victims! Both Targoth and the axe/shield orc can be seen while he's healing Chief!
I always assumed that was how he was still a palladin. Because his victims 'souls' got trapped, the universe hasn't quite cottoned on that he killed them yet, so he's still not registering as evil.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by BuildsLegos » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:45 am

I doubt any sort of diety could so easily be fooled, but it's as good a guess as any.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Krulle » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:37 am

boneguard wrote:Does anyone remmember the list of 10 or so possibilities that 1 forumite had posted? It was actually pretty good going from

1) Kore is curse
2) Kore is an demipaladin (2nd edition rules)
3) Kore is a Grey gard (or someting like that)
4) He's from the universe where everyone can multiclass paladin regardless of all restriction
5) He suffers from split personality

those are the one I remeber from the top of my head.
I don't remember seeing that list.

But I might add another possibility:
He's a 'bot.
A player is "Out Of Game" for whatever reason, and is running either a 'bot or having a hired Chinese levelling up his character.
That would explain why he's able to bend the rules for paladins.
And that he chooses one target and does not stop until that target is eliminated. Thaco's words "I'm your target now." brought me to this theory. He's gaining attention of the 'bot, to protect the other players for the time being. Kore often seems to react in such a way, switching attention only if someone actively tries to get his attention.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by decadere » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:59 am

Hello! This is my first post in the new forums but I just thought of something. Did Thunt specifically say Kore was not a FALLEN paladin? If you get enough magical items couldn't you duplicate / simulate Paladin spells?

The scenario I'm thinking is that he was once a Palaldin, went insane and slaughtered potentially evil people and became Fallen because of it. Not believing what he did was wrong, he got armor which specifically mimicked his old Paladin powers. This makes him still a Paladin but he needs items in order to cast the spells.

Hell, the Lay on Hands he cast may not actually BE LoH but something like it. I could see him as a person who refuses to agree that his philosophy is wrong (crazy people are like that) and see the items as a way to justify that what he is doing is right.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Fen » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:32 am

So I dug out my 3rd Edition books and wanted to put some information out there before I state my theory.

Per the Player's Handbook:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all special class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act of evil. Additionally, a paladinÔÇÖs code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, etc.), help those who need help (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those that harm or threaten innocents.

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all special abilities and spells, including the service of the paladinÔÇÖs warhorse.

This is pretty straightforward and defines what we commonly think of as a Paladin. We've seen Kore use Lay on Hands, which indicates that he still retains his Paladin abilities. By the wording above, that means he remains Lawful Good.

Detect Evil: At will, the paladin can detect evil as a spell-like ability. This ability duplicates the effects of the spell detect evil.

So then let's look at the wording of the spell.

You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject:

1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the strength of the strongest evil aura present. If you are of good alignment, the strongest evil auraÔÇÖs strength is "overwhelming" (see below), and the strength is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. While you are stunned, you canÔÇÖt act, you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC, and attackers gain +2 bonuses to attack you.

Remember that animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil; this spell does not detect them.

So as a Paladin, Kore has the ability to detect evil at will. Let's see what the Handbook says about Lawful and Good.

ÔÇ£LawÔÇØ implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closemindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability.

ÔÇ£GoodÔÇØ implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of
sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others. ÔÇ£EvilÔÇØ implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished. Alhandra, a paladin who fights evil without mercy and who protects the innocent without hesitation, is lawful good.

I find it odd that in the first section it states that hurting and killing others is evil, yet it then states that Lawful Good fights evil without mercy.

So now we crack open the Monster Manual and check out some entries:

Goblin
Alignment: Usually Neutral Evil

Gnoll
Alignment: Usually Chaotic Evil

Orc
Alignment: Often Chaotic Evil

Yuan-Ti
Alignment: Usually Chaotic Evil

So let's take what we have so far and see what we can make of it. We have a class that is granted divine power by remaining Lawful Good. This class has the ability to detect Evil at will. A Lawful Good character fights evil without mercy. Monsters generally start out with a default alignment based solely on what type of monster they are, and generally this is an Evil alignment.

I think this type of by-the-book explanation can get you by, but as we've seen so far in the comic, characters (including monsters) can't be pigeon-holed so easily into good/evil. That's always been my main issue with the alignment system - generally a person is a mix fo good/evil, not just purely one or the other. I'm sure an evil marauding orc still plays with his son and gets him a new axe on his birthday. I'm sure the good king has skimmed some tax money for a velvet doublet. But then think of it this way - everyone, no matter what, has a little evil in them.

We also don't know what god Kore worships. What if his god doesn't see the shades of grey? What if his god decrees that all evil, no matter where or how, must be wiped out, no matter what? If every living creature has some evil, and the potential for more evil (like the argument that murdering a killer saves the lives of his future potential victims), and his god decrees that all evil must be wiped out no matter what, then technically you are following the strict tenants of your god and remaining within his/her divine favor.

So that's my theory. Kore just takes a very strict interpretation of what his duties entail, and his god agrees with this strict interpretation and finds it pleasing.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by wrecan » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:48 pm

kijihir wrote:Herbert is a God, and if he house rules a few questions about alignment, no big deal.
Well, "Herbert houseruled an evil paladin" is a pretty common idea, except that Thunt has said Kore is consistent with the rules, which would indicate Kore is not house-ruled.
Almightyquad wrote:An unwilling evil act, is still an evil act.
While true, paladins only fall for willingly committing evil acts. No atonement needed for unwilling evil acts.
boneguard wrote:An unwilling act of evil can still lead to a gross violation of his code of conduct.
Yes, but since we don't know what Kore's Code of Conduct entails, we can assume that he has not violated it, as evidence by his not falling. Until Thunt tells us what Kore's Code of Conduct involves the rules of Code of Conduct will not help us.
Trojan wrote:I wonder if Kore is technically still a paladin because the curse means that he isn't willfully committing evil
To me that is the most likely scenario.
Trojan wrote:the curse replaces the lost powers with similar powers fueled by the souls of the innocents
Except he hasn't lost any powers.
T' Northerner wrote: Because his victims 'souls' got trapped, the universe hasn't quite cottoned on that he killed them yet, so he's still not registering as evil.
Trapping the souls of innocents would still count as an evil act.
Krulle wrote:He's a 'bot.
NPC paladins still fall if they commit evil acts. This isn't a MMORPG.
decadere wrote:Did Thunt specifically say Kore was not a FALLEN paladin?
Yes.
Fen wrote: What if his god doesn't see the shades of grey?
It doesn't matter. Paladins fall by dint of the universal laws of alignment, not the wrath of their gods. A paladin could follow every tenet ofthe god he follows and still fall if he willingly commits an evil act. So saith da rulez, and Kore is, in theory, not house-ruled. (So saith da Thunt.)

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by BuildsLegos » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:21 pm

Here's a meta-theory that I don't think anyone has said yet: What if Kore's player is an actual (would be) serial killer who plays the game to vent his murder fantasies. In a very unThuntonian way, that would explain why he gets away with so much contradiction, Herbert (or whoever) tolerates the broken rules for the greater good.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by wrecan » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:53 am

BuildsLegos wrote:Here's a meta-theory that I don't think anyone has said yet: What if Kore's player is an actual (would be) serial killer who plays the game to vent his murder fantasies. In a very unThuntonian way, that would explain why he gets away with so much contradiction, Herbert (or whoever) tolerates the broken rules for the greater good.
That's the same thing as saying that Kore is a house-ruled paladin. Also, I highly doubt that Kore is a PC.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Lee » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:34 am

T' Northerner wrote:
BuildsLegos wrote:Aha! I knew the faces on Kore's wings were his victims! Both Targoth and the axe/shield orc can be seen while he's healing Chief!
I always assumed that was how he was still a palladin. Because his victims 'souls' got trapped, the universe hasn't quite cottoned on that he killed them yet, so he's still not registering as evil.
A variant theory of that, is the souls of his innocent victims are being used to "cloak" his own soul so when the alignment system/rules/DM (whatever decides if a Paladin has fallen) look at him it sees only their innocence and not the evil he is committing.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by BuildsLegos » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:03 am

wrecan wrote:
BuildsLegos wrote:Here's a meta-theory that I don't think anyone has said yet: What if Kore's player is an actual (would be) serial killer who plays the game to vent his murder fantasies. In a very unThuntonian way, that would explain why he gets away with so much contradiction, Herbert (or whoever) tolerates the broken rules for the greater good.
That's the same thing as saying that Kore is a house-ruled paladin. Also, I highly doubt that Kore is a PC.
Hence "unThuntonian"; it's not a theory I trust, just one that I like.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Peridan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:15 am

This might be a little crazy, and I'm not quite sure of the lore specifications behind it, but maybe Kore is the last paladin from the creation of the Axe of Prissan?

http://www.goblinscomic.com/08122007/

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by wrecan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:59 am

Maybe, but it really doesn't help explain why Kore can kill innocents without falling.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Peridan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:08 am

Well, I couldn't speak for the author. But I would guess, based on the odd creation of the item in the first place, that there must be some kind of odd end that he can capitalize on in some way by allowing the one paladin to live in a plot sense.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by wrecan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:24 pm

Peridan wrote:Well, I couldn't speak for the author. But I would guess, based on the odd creation of the item in the first place, that there must be some kind of odd end that he can capitalize on in some way by allowing the one paladin to live in a plot sense.
Well, sure. But that's yet another way of saying "Thunt houseruled an excuse for Kore to kill innocents without falling".

Essentially, there are two camps to explain Kore

Within the Rules
Here, people come up with a way to explain Kore without houseruling. People suggest Grey Guard prestige class, or a dominate effect, or use of simulacrum. No house-ruling.

Without the Rules
People just hand-wave the rules away as a house-rule. you can spot these thread because they don't actually discuss the rules. They fall into two-subcamps

First subcamp: Justify the house-ruling. This usually just means pointing to something else Thunt has house-ruled, like alternate universes, or the Axe of Prissan, and declaring (opr speculating) that this explains Kore.

Second subcamp: Identify the rule being modified. For example, speculating that alignment is subjective, or Kore's god approves of Kore's behavior, or that an item (or series of items) exists to let Kore not fall, or speculating that Kore is of some house-rules race that doesn't fall.

I'll admit I don't have much sympathy for the House Rule camp. There's no way we can know if it's true or false because we have no basis for judging. We can't discuss it (beyond me simply pointing out that you're proposing a house rule).

I like the rules discussion. It's an interesting exercise. But the house rule discussion? We might as well just link to every houserule Thunt has ever made and then speculate about possible houserules Thunt could make.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by YardMeat » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:06 am

I need to dig out my 3rd ed books again, but I distinctly remember one major fact from playing a Paladin: their abilities do NOT come from a deity. I believe it is under the magic section, but I remember citing it several times to various DMs and on various forums in the past. The source of a Paladin's spells and abilities is Good itself, not the Paladin's god.

It will not be something as simple as alignment being grey in Thunt's world, otherwise other characters would not be so confused about how he retains his powers. If Paladins and their deities got to define good as whatever they wanted it to be, the characters in Thunt's world wouldn't think that someone like Kore was all that unusual.

We know that Kore is unusual for a Paladin in Thunt's world, and that this has something to do with his curse/gift:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/03272006/

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