Kore Discussion / Speculation

[CelineSSauve]

For example if you have an evil madman who threatens to blow up miljons of people with a nuke. You have him in prison and he knows how to defuse the bombs. Would you torture him? Torture is an evil act? But is deciding not to torture him, an letting all those civilians die not also an evil act?
If you torture the man and thereby safe a miljon people, would you be concidered evil? If you were a palladin right then, would you suffer the allignment consequence?

That's up to the DM of course, whether torture in time of war or time of duress would be an acceptable and non-evil mean of gathering information.

However if we stick to the basic definition that Torture IS evil, a Paladin could not torture nor be party to such an act by his comarade; and would try to find another avenue to get the information, try to defuse it himself, evacuate the general population or displace the bomb to where it would cause less damage.

If he doesn't follow that course he commits an evil act, or knowingly allow an Evil act to be committed and he will lose his Paladinhood.

We can all agree that torturing someone because you won't want the spend the time it would take to track down his companions is a dungeon is Evil, though, right?

Personally, I see only one possibility that makes sense.

Kore is compelled. If Kore's evil acts are the result of a geas unwillingly placed upon him then it is arguable that his alignment would not change. Now Kore has said that he is "gifted" not "cursed", but this may be him rationalizing it. Or it could be that he did want the geas on him. Had he requested it, he'd probably still fall. But if some, say, genie type, overheard Kore lamenting that his honorable code prevented him from "doing what needed to be done" and gifted him with this curse without his advance consent or knowledge, he'd probably be okay. That said, a curse like this is also sort of the same thing as a homebrewed item, race, or prestige class. However, it it was imposed via the wish spell, it would still be within the rules. (Bonus if said wish were placed on him by a solar!)

This give the only possible "out," for the above objection.

If spending extra time following and hunting down the GAP would result in an even greater Evil than Kore, then it might still hold.

But I really hope the explanation isn't just a loophole of some sort.

I mean, this is Thunt's Goblins we're talking about here!


Oh, and I don't buy the "extra eyes" theories. Looks like a reflection from staples or metal stitches of some sort, personally.

[TinSoldier]

Mystery:
What the heck is that? (panel 4)?!

Someone found this before, it's actually a paladin thing.

I remember because I argued against it at first until I was shown good evidence in the RAW that it was.

Sorry I don't have more details, and I can't spend the time right now at work to research it. Maybe someone else has a better recall and/or better knowledge of D&D 3.x RAW.

Edit: I may be misremembering and the wings are Kore's IME. My argument may have been that the wings weren't particularly angelic, but that was awhile (2 1/2 years!) ago.

[Elvors]

Allignment is just an idea to devine someone's personality, the way i see it.
In theory there exists no good or evil, it's all just an idea, merely meant as a guideline.

That's real-life philosophy, and an arguably solid one. In fact it's even D&D philosophy - you can commit evil acts and still stay a good person; you just need to offset the evil with more good acts, or convince your GM that the evil acts are somehow justified.

HOWEVER, this all is irrelevant to paladinhood. A single evil act, wilfully committed, will lose the paladin status. No exceptions whatsoever: Motives, choice of lesser evil, moral relativism, being misled - none of that counts; do something evil, and paladinhood is gone.

Note that it is the evil act that makes a paladin fall. There is no real relativism here - torturing people is evil, using poison is evil, killing innocents is evil. It's just the rules, and if the rules had said that stroking a kitty is evil, that would be forbidden to a paladin no matter what common sense would say about such a rule.

[wrecan]

Edit: I may be misremembering and the wings are Kore's IME. My argument may have been that the wings weren't particularly angelic, but that was awhile (2 1/2 years!) ago.

It may be Kore's IME, bt uit's not wings. Those are chains holding what appear to resemble the souls of the individuals he's killed.

[wrecan]

If spending extra time following and hunting down the GAP would result in an even greater Evil than Kore, then it might still hold.

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I don't think an evil action willingly taken is forgiven (for purposes of a paladin falling) simply because the paladin is trying to stop an even greate evil. I think, as far as a the paladin code is concerned, a "necessary evil" is still evil. I would personally place this in the "houseruled alignment system" basket, but I would understand if Thunt disagrees.

I really don't think that's what is going on, given Kore's explanation to the young dwarf why he has to kathunk him.

[TinSoldier]

Edit: I may be misremembering and the wings are Kore's IME. My argument may have been that the wings weren't particularly angelic, but that was awhile (2 1/2 years!) ago.

It may be Kore's IME, bt uit's not wings. Those are chains holding what appear to resemble the souls of the individuals he's killed.

Yes, I know that. But it's in the shape of wings, and the argument goes more specifically angel-like wings as opposed to the more bat-like demon-like wings.

Mainly because each end is more analogous to a feather tip than to a finger claw as in bat wings.

[gamecreator]

Those are chains holding what appear to resemble the souls of the individuals he's killed.

I think he killed far more than that. Those in his IME are only innocents.

[Sessine]

My D&D gaming days are long past, but I did at one time wrestle with the question of 'when would a paladin lose paladinhood?'

It is possible for a DM to construct scenarios in which all possible courses of action, including doing nothing, would count as evil. In that case, I think the player would be entitled to cast a really reproachful look at the DM!

Relatedly, there might be scenarios where a paladin acting in full accordance with the principles of paladinhood would voluntarily commit an evil act, knowing the cost, in order to prevent a much greater evil. That's where 'atonement' comes in.

However, I don't think either of these would cover Kore's mysterious retention of paladinhood. His excuse for killing the dwarf child is totally flimsy. It cannot stand up to even the slightest sort of examination. It's the logic of a psychopath, which is about as far as you can get from qualifying to be a paladin. He should have done a Detect Evil on the child, and when the answer came back negative (no, let's not go there, that kid was innocent), he should have done his best to get him to safety.

The only explanation I've seen that half-way satisfies, is that he is not the one making the decisions. Even so... if he's possessed by a demon, for instance... how does a demon get to invoke paladin powers like Holy Sword, and Lay On Hands?

Perhaps the loophole is that he's insane.

[spiderwrangler]

Oh, and I don't buy the "extra eyes" theories. Looks like a reflection from staples or metal stitches of some sort, personally.

+1000

[wrecan]

He should have done a Detect Evil on the child, and when the answer came back negative (no, let's not go there, that kid was innocent), he should have done his best to get him to safety.

Kore didn't detect evil because he knew the child was not evil. he was afraid that the child, during his captivity had gained sympathy for the orcs and that would eventually grow into becoming evil. He expressly killed the child for his potential to become evil.

The only explanation I've seen that half-way satisfies, is that he is not the one making the decisions. Even so... if he's possessed by a demon, for instance... how does a demon get to invoke paladin powers like Holy Sword, and Lay On Hands?

Possession? Probably not. But mind control? yes. A charmed or dominated (or as I believe, geased) paladin can still use all his paladin abilities.

Perhaps the loophole is that he's insane.

That wouldn't prevent him from falling since it does not matter what the paladin believes. That said, even if it did work that way, the fact that insane paladins can't fall should be common enough knowledge that Y&B would have deduced that as a possibility and not wondered why Kore didn't fall for killing innocents. At a minimum such insanity rules would be analogous to a homebrewed item, dimension, class, or feat, and probably wouldn't fall within Thunt's statement that Kore's not falling is within the rules.

[cyco]

Could he be two creatures? I don't know anything about D&D (besides playing some videogames based in it), but imagine he's two creatures melded into one (or something in those lines). One of the creatures could be the paladin and the other could be the evil doer, but the evil one is the one in control, so the evil actions wouldn't be the paladin's responsibility and he wouldn't suffer its consequences.
Although this wouldn't explain why the evil doer could control the paladin's powers. Maybe it has a way of forcing him or even channel his powers. Is that even possible in D&D?

This could also explain the hypothetical second set of eyes, or even the stitches. It's the evil creature that has been melded/grafted into the paladin.

[cyco]

I see someone already mentioned possession, but i guess i was going more for some kind of physical parasite, which would explain the strange thing under the helmet.

[wrecan]

Could he be two creatures?

Sure. As long as the evil one is controlling the good paladin and can access his powers. If the dwarven paladin possessed by a demon named, say, Not-Kore, the demon might be able to force Kore to use his paladin power and when he hear Kore speak, it could actually be Not-Kore's words. It's just another variant on the mind-control hypothesis.

[I'mBob]

I'm not sure if anyone posted about it, but it seems we know what is Korw level, according to this pic that Thunt released about the upcoming game:

http://media-cache-ec3.pinterest.com/or ... 7e34d3.jpg

So he is level 14, apparently.

[wrecan]

More importantly, this confirms that Kore is a dwarf, and is probably not a dual entity or a polymorphed hound archon or the like

[SamWiser]

I don't think that anything in the game is cannon. Afterall, it is Alternate Realities. Still, I do think that it has been confirmed somewhere that Kore is a dwarf. Or maybe I'm just imagining things. That may be true also.

[I'mBob]

Well, all of the other characters have stats that we know are right, so I believe Kore stats are true as well.

[boneguard]

I don't think that anything in the game is cannon. Afterall, it is Alternate Realities. Still, I do think that it has been confirmed somewhere that Kore is a dwarf. Or maybe I'm just imagining things. That may be true also.

When fighting the GAP, Kore casted a spell -Holy Sword- that allowed us to say with certainty that he is at least a 14th level paladin.

[gamecreator]

Well, all of the other characters have stats that we know are right

What, like Kin and Dies being adventurers?

[cliffracer]

Well, all of the other characters have stats that we know are right

What, like Kin and Dies being adventurers?

Warrior is an npc class, they're not adventurers.

[dorkdragon]

Is it possible that Kore is a dwarven Dragonborn? My understanding of the rules in Races of the Dragon (D&D 3.0) is that dragonborn can freely take paladin levels and use the powers they gain from them, regardless of any circumstances that would normally disbar someone from paladinhood.

Moving with that theory, it could be possible the Kore was a paladin that was invited to become a dragonborn, and at some point either during or after the Rite of Rebirth was tainted somehow, or became convinced that in order to achieve the dragonborn's greater goal (defeating the minions of Tiamat) that he needed to completely stomp out the 'seed of evil.'

The beard and the glimpse we caught of him at the entrance to Depth's of the Dragon's Maw seems to dismiss this theory, as he doesn't look even slightly dragonish. I still like this theory though.

[boneguard]

Although unlikely -since THunt pretty much seems to stick to the 3 core books of D&D 3rd ed- it is an interesting theory indeed.

[I'mBob]

I don't think it is very likely, we have no real evidence that proves it, I see it as some random guessing. (No offense)

[predator]

http://www.goblinscomic.com/03272006/
just something i noticed. Evidence of a curse on Kore. Even tough he conciders it a gift.

Maybe his curse is to be a paladin. And he is trying very hard to break the curse. (LOL)

[predator]

I have been searching trough some DND book.
This section i found in the 'Unearthed Arcana' book.
(one of the books that serves as expansion to the original)
i'l just post some fragments of my findings:

PALADIN VARIANTS: FREEDOM,
SLAUGHTER, AND TYRANNY
The three paladin variants presented here demonstrate examples of
alternative-alignment paladins. Each one follows a specifi c code of
conduct tailored to its specifi c alignment. The paladin of freedom
is chaotic good, dedicated to liberty and free thought. The paladin
of tyranny is the opposite, a lawful evil villain bent on dominating
those weaker than she. The paladin of slaughter is a brutal champion
of chaos and evil who leaves only destruction trailing in his
wake. (If you use these versions of the paladin class, you might
consider designating the standard paladin in the PlayerÔÇÖs Handbook
as the ÔÇ£paladin of honorÔÇØ to differentiate it from the variants.)
These paladin variants arenÔÇÖt meant to be unique classes in
and of themselves, but rather alignment-based variations of the
paladin. They have the same Hit Die, skill points per level, weapon
and armor profi ciencies, and spells per day as the standard
paladin in the PlayerÔÇÖs Handbook. Their class skill lists are nearly
identical, with exceptions noted below. Their spellcasting functions
identically to that of the standard paladin (though their
spell lists are somewhat different). When a class feature has the
same name as a paladin class feature, it functions the same as the
one described in the PlayerÔÇÖs Handbook.

Code of Conduct:
A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic
good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly
commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin of freedomÔÇÖs code
requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need
(provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and
punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.

Code of Conduct:
A paladin of slaughter must be of chaotic
evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly
commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of slaughterÔÇÖs code
requires that she disrespect all authority figures who have not
proven their physical superiority to her, refuse help to those in
need, and sow destruction and death at all opportunities.

Code of Conduct:
A paladin of tyranny must be of lawful evil
alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits
a good act. Additionally, a paladin of tyrannyÔÇÖs code requires that
he respect authority fi gures as long as they have the strength to
rule over the weak, act with discipline (not engaging in random
slaughter, keeping fi rm control over those beneath his station, and
so forth), help only those who help him maintain or improve his
status, and punish those who challenge authority (unless, of course,
such challengers prove more worthy to hold that authority).

____

There is much much more about dwarfs and religion concerning paladins. I don't want to clutter the topic to much.

MY POINT: it is possible for paladins to be evil. It depends on their allignment. What kind of paladin are you?
being a paladin might still be a matter of black/white, right/wrong, good/evil etc. etc. however the core of the paladin is determined by the deity he follows (for the deity determines the allignment.)
Not that i nessarily believe that Kore follows some kind of evil deity. Thunt has probably something much more suprising in mind for the plot...
But concerning a earlier debate regarding if a paladin can commit evil. YES HE CAN. (according to the texts in the DND books at least..)