Kore Discussion / Speculation

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Lazertron
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Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Lazertron » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:56 pm

I remember reading a thread or two about this on the old forum.
And so, I revive it, if only because I'd like to suggest a possibility for Kore. (If what I'm about to say was on the old forum, I didn't notice it. But I think it bears mentioning up front anyway.)

I don't know that much about the monster manuals, and it's not like thunt doesn't make up his own (great!) monsters, but what exactly is Kore?

Here, in the next-to-last panel, we see that he appears to have a non-standard number of eyes:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/01182011-2/

Which leads me to believe that alternate-reality Forgath is wearing alternate-reality Kore's skull here:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/03012011-4/

And of course Kore files down his horns and teeth, because it's a different reality. Or maybe a slightly different curse.

I just thought I'd see if anyone else saw this and thought the same thing, or otherwise had any insight into Kore's nature as a crazy multi-eyed freaky demondwarf thing.

This is the closest thing I've seen to a clue about Kore in the comic.

edit:
Surran├│'s summary of this thread with links added by Krulle.
-RS
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Reason: Inserting thread summary as per request -RS

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by TinSoldier » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:02 pm

Kore is Chuck Norris, foreshortened and stuffed into armor. He transcends such silly rules as "alignment" and "paladin".

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by SamWiser » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:25 pm

I do believe that it has been confirmed that Kore is a normal dwarf, and a normal paladin, but nobody knows how that is. Still, it's good to have this here, so maybe one of the new forumites can figure it out.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by predator » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:17 am

hi..
I don't think those are eyes underneath the helm. I think it are stitches.
I think something bad happened to the dwarf's face. Maybe his head got crushed and he barely survived something...

And i also have a theory about Kore's allignment....

A paladin serves his god...

Gods determine what is good and what is evil... (because does there really exist good/evil? isn't it in some way all shades of grey?)

So a paladin who does good in the eyes of his god might be granted powers from that god...

Theory 1: What if the god he serves is corrupt in some way?

And Kore is the god's avatar or number one prophet or something in that sense...

______

Theory 2: gods always look at the big picture and are less concerned with evil/good on a small level. He might grant powers for his paladin champion because everything kore does might be part of 'greater plan', that will ultimately work out better for the world.

Theory 3: Kore somehow steals his paladin powers trough an artefact of great power or maybe he has made some kind of unholy deal with the god.

I might think of more theories. You basicly have to think outside of the 'box'.

____
Thunt hasnt explored gods and religion that much in the comic yet. But we do know there have been more gods than just 'he who sits in his basement/ herbert'. Because the maze of alternate realities has somewhat of a backstory concerning gods.

I don't know if any of these theories have been mentioned before. They probably are. But i'm new to the forums (not to the comic), so i don't know.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by cyco » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:40 am

Lazertron wrote: Which leads me to believe that alternate-reality Forgath is wearing alternate-reality Kore's skull here:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/03012011-4/
What you think are the holes for the eyes in that skull (where the eyes of forgath are), could be the hole for a snout, just like in this elephant skull:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/7c11d7e51021 ... o1_500.jpg

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John
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by John » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:32 am

Well couldn't we argue that the skull helmet isn't Kore's at all? Like maybe it's of our Demon (Richard or something) that hates MinMax? Maybe Kore also has a "multiclass" or prestige class element to him.

I'm more of a mind that maybe he has an powerful intelligent item on him pushing over his paladin restraints. Theoretically Kore in his paladins' fight to do good is getting whispers in his mind from a ring or bauble we haven't seen. He himself would be a paladin under an evil items control- would he lose paladin status therefor?
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by boneguard » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:50 am

Does anyone remmember the list of 10 or so possibilities that 1 forumite had posted? It was actually pretty good going from

1) Kore is curse
2) Kore is an demipaladin (2nd edition rules)
3) Kore is a Grey gard (or someting like that)
4) He's from the universe where everyone can multiclass paladin regardless of all restriction
5) He suffers from split personality

those are the one I remeber from the top of my head.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by SccrD25 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:07 am

boneguard wrote: those are the one I remeber from the top of my head.
There were a hand-full of ones that basically involved the word "possession", which then would lead to D&D rule debates about paladins.

Personally I think the armor is possessing him somehow. Sort of a black suit spiderman deal (venom).
I base it all off this panel http://www.goblinscomic.com/12032010-2/
WHY on earth would you wear boots over armor? Just to trick someone trying to stab your feet? Seems a bit paranoid to the point of crazy.

Unless the metal is growing over your skin...

Edit: Recalled another. Some people postulated that Kore is the paladin mentioned in the Axe of Prissan history http://www.goblinscomic.com/08122007/
Which then splintered into a couple theories on "why he could be him" with that backstory
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Dragomok » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:44 pm

Lazertron wrote:Here, in the next-to-last panel, we see that he appears to have a non-standard number of eyes:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/01182011-2/
predator wrote:I don't think those are eyes underneath the helm. I think it are stitches.
So... Am I the only one who thinks these are nostrils? Normal nostrils at the bottom of a human nose?
SccrD25 wrote:Edit: Recalled another. Some people postulated that Kore is the paladin mentioned in the Axe of Prissan history http://www.goblinscomic.com/08122007/
Which then splintered into a couple theories on "why he could be him" with that backstory
While I don't have any solid evidence that Kore's that paladin, it is confirmed that he/she/it/them/us has been chasing - and in near proximity of - the Axe at least twice (series depicting previous owners of the Axe, backstory for dwarven paladin that went deaf and eventually shaved all his hair).
Guys, guys, I got this.
Kore is actually a meta-character representing cute-funny/grim-gory duality of many webcomics and D&D campaigns, as well as the persistence of this thread, which survived at least two forum switches and has been going for over two years despite not having a granule of any new evidence.

In order to defeat her, we need to cease talking about him and start talking about how oblivion holes don't make any sense, in which case - when Minmax finally arrives at the bridge - Kore will somehow fall into non-existence and will had never has been going to be, thus reviving Chief, Klik and THunt's follicles.









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Occams Meataxe
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Occams Meataxe » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:09 pm

The answer is obvious.
He is a regular Paladin. Only thing is, when Kore was initiated Herbert had just taken a huge hit of DMT, pineal gland, pure caffeine and rat poison. Poor sod has just been following his god's instructions since.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by gamecreator » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:15 pm

Dragomok wrote:thus reviving Chief, Klik and THunt's follicles.
You forgot about K'seliss.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Orga the Strange » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:47 am

I know the wiki said something about those weird things on his head being bone and torn flesh, suggesting some kind of Darth Vader-ish deal that could possibly copulate(it's late and I can't think of the right word) with the living/cursed armor. Like, it could be keeping him alive. And somehow doing something with his stuff...
Man I lost track of that fast. Anyways, I think they look eyes. I say he's got some kind of demon living in him, or maybe an insane angel.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Ledbetter » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:26 pm

I would more say that Kore actually believes that he's doing the right thing, killing all monsters and those that may become a threat to non-monsters, (i.e: humans, dwarves, elves and such) even if said monsters are intelligent or do not harm others. Then following that logic he wouldn't ever lose his Paladins status because what he is doing the right thing, and, taking off of what some other posters have been saying, his god thinks that's the right thing as well.
So:
He thinks is O.K
His god thinks its O.K

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by boneguard » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:09 am

Ledbetter wrote:Then following that logic he wouldn't ever lose his Paladins status because what he is doing the right thing, and, taking off of what some other posters have been saying, his god thinks that's the right thing as well.
So:
He thinks is O.K
His god thinks its O.K
I'm sorry but no.

What He thinks and what his God think is irrelevent. Alignment in D&D is above the Gods -even they must follow it rigidly- and alignment follows a Black/white continuum.

If your action is defined as Evil -torture, murder of innnocents, raping and pillaging, etc.- even if you and your God think you are doing the right thing, you will suffer the Alignment consequence: which for a Paladin is lost of the paladin status on the first offence.

Edit:
That's what gets us gamer in a frantic search for an answer...with what we have at hand, he should not be a paladin anymore.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by SccrD25 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:50 am

boneguard wrote: That's what gets us gamer in a frantic search for an answer...with what we have at hand, he should not be a paladin anymore.
Seconded. It's just so messed up! Or to quote Big Ears:
But... But that's impossible!

And a really really good story hook by THunt. I'm almost going to be disappointed when we get an answer, one less great mystery in life.

(Don't get me wrong though, I want that answer. I want it now)
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by gamecreator » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:21 am

On the old forum was one theory, that said that Kore's actions are involuntary.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by predator » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:26 pm

Ledbetter wrote:Then following that logic he wouldn't ever lose his Paladins status because what he is doing the right thing, and, taking off of what some other posters have been saying, his god thinks that's the right thing as well.
So:
He thinks is O.K
His god thinks its O.K



I'm sorry but no.

What He thinks and what his God think is irrelevent. Alignment in D&D is above the Gods -even they must follow it rigidly- and alignment follows a Black/white continuum.

If your action is defined as Evil -torture, murder of innnocents, raping and pillaging, etc.- even if you and your God think you are doing the right thing, you will suffer the Alignment consequence: which for a Paladin is lost of the paladin status on the first offence.

Edit:
That's what gets us gamer in a frantic search for an answer...with what we have at hand, he should not be a paladin anymore.
Allignment is just an idea to devine someone's personality, the way i see it.
In theory there exists no good or evil, it's all just an idea, merely meant as a guideline.
If humans had no intilligence then the entire concept of good/ evil would not exist because we would be like animals.
But in order to ease our lives and to be able to build up a society there needs to be rules.
If those rules aren't followed then you are evil. If you follow up to those rules then you are good.
Even in our world; cultures or communities of people exist who think murdering innocents is ok for some reason. And all those forms of what we percieve to be evil are also common in some cultures.
I guess as there are also many religious and philosphical debates about good/evil and such i guess the main question would be:
How does Thunt handle his paladins in his fictional universe?
___
Oh on a side note: I have about a 100 dnd books (sort of downloaded them, an act of evil, i know), and in some of those books are also contradicting things about allignment.

For example if you have an evil madman who threatens to blow up miljons of people with a nuke. You have him in prison and he knows how to defuse the bombs. Would you torture him? Torture is an evil act? But is deciding not to torture him, an letting all those civilians die not also an evil act?
If you torture the man and thereby safe a miljon people, would you be concidered evil? If you were a palladin right then, would you suffer the allignment consequence?
Wat i am trying to say is, we can't think in black and white any more (not evin in dnd), it's a thing of the past. And i also think this to be a important theme of Thunt's comic.

If i think of a paladin then i think about a role model. A person who tries to do everything good in the eyes of his god/ personal philosiphy/ cultural law/ etc. He tries to be a good human and draws power from that. If he were to betray his own code then he might lose his powers. Because a paladin draws his power from the very fact that he is the perfect role model. If his ego bruised then he might think of himself as less and unworthy and because of that reason lose his power. But as long as he himself thinks he is doing the right thing and he is the very centre for everything <his god/ personal philosiphy/ cultural law/ etc> he believes in then his powers continue to grow. This same thing maybe applies to all humans in general but in the case of the paladin, it's his primary strenght and at the same time his weakness and defines him.

But ok, nevermind all that. Just got a bit carried away...:p

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by spiderwrangler » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:06 pm

Lazertron wrote:Here, in the next-to-last panel, we see that he appears to have a non-standard number of eyes:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/01182011-2/
I'm still convinced that this = not a thing.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by TinSoldier » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:10 pm

spiderwrangler wrote:
Lazertron wrote:Here, in the next-to-last panel, we see that he appears to have a non-standard number of eyes:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/01182011-2/
I'm still convinced that this = not a thing.
Agreed.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Orga the Strange » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:43 pm

TinSoldier wrote:
spiderwrangler wrote:
Lazertron wrote:Here, in the next-to-last panel, we see that he appears to have a non-standard number of eyes:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/01182011-2/
I'm still convinced that this = not a thing.
Agreed.
Keeping in line with the eye thing, maybe he's not actually a dwarf. What if he's some kind of Eldritch Thyng from The Beyond or some such like that? He could be operating on blue and orange morality.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by SamWiser » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:50 pm

Everything that we know about his says that he is a dwarf. The obly thing that I know we're missing is hearing it from Thunt's mouth himself, though it probably happened. He is a dwarf.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by spiderwrangler » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:43 pm

Orga the Strange wrote:Keeping in line with the eye thing, .
What eye thing? :D
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by Lamascale » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:21 am

As much I would support the idea of shade of grey idea, I would like to contradict it to see more views on what Kore could be.
I believe that there has been some talk in the comic about alignment. Therefore I believe that Kore does have an alignment. If we were to put an alignment on Kore just to classify him, he is most diffidently some kind of lawful. His character is a strong paladin sort of nature, he has strong ideals and ethics do not bound him on these ideals. So far I did not see him crossing his ideals which would bring us to think that these ideals are what drives him and as we all know; paladins follow their God's ideas and virtues. Another thing is I don't think he worships the same god as Forgath.
I am a bit tired and will wait for any replies before going through more speculations of Kore.

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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by boneguard » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:01 am

predator wrote:How does Thunt handle his paladins in his fictional universe?
That goes without saying, that ultimately as the GM he has the final say on how things work. However a longlonglonglong time ago, THunt did mention that Kore followed the Rules (even RAW iirc), so that got us spining since by RAW Paladin got a 0 Tolerance to Evil Act limitation.
predator wrote:For example if you have an evil madman who threatens to blow up miljons of people with a nuke. You have him in prison and he knows how to defuse the bombs. Would you torture him? Torture is an evil act? But is deciding not to torture him, an letting all those civilians die not also an evil act?
If you torture the man and thereby safe a miljon people, would you be concidered evil? If you were a palladin right then, would you suffer the allignment consequence?
That's up to the DM of course, whether torture in time of war or time of duress would be an acceptable and non-evil mean of gathering information.

However if we stick to the basic definition that Torture IS evil, a Paladin could not torture nor be party to such an act by his comarade; and would try to find another avenue to get the information, try to defuse it himself, evacuate the general population or displace the bomb to where it would cause less damage.

If he doesn't follow that course he commits an evil act, or knowingly allow an Evil act to be committed and he will lose his Paladinhood.
predator wrote:Wat i am trying to say is, we can't think in black and white any more (not evin in dnd), it's a thing of the past. And i also think this to be a important theme of Thunt's comic.
The problem here is that Paladin by definition are Black and White to a very big degree. and must refrain from willingly commit Evil act or lose their status permanently. Even unwilling evil act will make them lose thier status until they Atone for it...and that's not going to work long term either.
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Re: Kore Discussion / Speculation

Post by wrecan » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:20 am

We know the following:
  1. Kore is a paladin sufficient for the Axe of Prissan to recognize him as such and pass through him.
  2. Kore has laid on hands and cast spells that are only found on the paladin spell list
  3. Kore knowingly kills the innocent (kathunk)
  4. People in the universe familiar with the rules of the universe believe that he should not be able to keep his paladin status due to his actions.
  5. Thunt has stated that Kore's powers are consistent with the rules.
Mystery:
What the heck is that? (panel 4)?!

So I find it unlikely that the explanation would be that alignment rules can be interpreted to make it work. If that were feasible, people would not be surprised that he can keep his powers. I find it unlikely that he has a homebrewed item, race, or prestige class or comes from an alternate plane with different alignment rules, as that would conflict with Thunt's statement that Kore is consistent with the rules (and would prevent us from playing along).

Personally, I see only one possibility that makes sense.

Kore is compelled. If Kore's evil acts are the result of a geas unwillingly placed upon him then it is arguable that his alignment would not change. Now Kore has said that he is "gifted" not "cursed", but this may be him rationalizing it. Or it could be that he did want the geas on him. Had he requested it, he'd probably still fall. But if some, say, genie type, overheard Kore lamenting that his honorable code prevented him from "doing what needed to be done" and gifted him with this curse without his advance consent or knowledge, he'd probably be okay. That said, a curse like this is also sort of the same thing as a homebrewed item, race, or prestige class. However, it it was imposed via the wish spell, it would still be within the rules. (Bonus if said wish were placed on him by a solar!)

A subset of this is that the Kore we see is a simulacrum of the "real Kore". However, the problem with this theory is that the Kore we've seen is can cast Holy Sword, which makes him (and the caster who created him) at least 14th level. This means the original Kore would be 28th level, which would make him an epic paladin. That seems quite unlikely....

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