Chaos Theory and Quantum Mechanics As Pertinent to the MoM

[willpell]

This is for continuing discussion of the Maze of Many in terms of its implications as generalized from modern Earth science, notably complexity theory and particle physics. Because "a wizard did it" is a boring answer, even if accurate. Let's hear your thoughts.

[Trojan]

At some point, an anti-matter alternate team should inevitably enter the maze, at which point they would instantly obliterate the appropriate mass of the maze causing a rather large nuclear explosion which would either destroy the maze or making everyone within it reboot - if the latter then the AM team would also reboot - leading to the maze entering a period of very rapid reboots.

Since the only known way for the AM team to exit the maze is for them to win, and winning is impossible for them barring the maze flipping their polarity or them somehow forming in the treasure room, on the blue circle, and winning instantly instead of forming by a counter; the maze must either have a positive-only gateway to enter, exist in 2 versions (positive and negative) with the alternates directed to the matching maze, or anti-matter must be far less prevalent in the multiverse than we suspect.

Possibly however the maze permits AM teams, but takes a while to identify the issue and eject the AM team, which could explain a million failures for the FMK team - 990-odd thousand of their runs lasted a ten thousandth of a second or so due to the accidental presence of an AM team. In that scenario I suspect that we'd have a severe case of counter-failure though, unless the counters are also automatically restored each time and psimax has simply been trashing his counter each time he restarts.

I do wonder how a MinMax with the "resistance vs nuclear holocaust 100%" ability (there has to be one out there in the multiverse) would deal with the AM team wipeout though, I suspect smugly.

[willpell]

At some point, an anti-matter alternate team should inevitably enter the maze, at which point they would instantly obliterate the appropriate mass of the maze causing a rather large nuclear explosion which would either destroy the maze or making everyone within it reboot - if the latter then the AM team would also reboot - leading to the maze entering a period of very rapid reboots.

There's really no need to assume that any such thing as antimatter exists in a universe where magic works and deities waved their hands to create the world. This makes for a fun thought experiment, but I've always figured that in a fantasy universe, dramatic necessity is ultimately more important than any physical laws. (Yes, I know, I should really read Diskworld.)

I do wonder how a MinMax with the "resistance vs nuclear holocaust 100%" ability (there has to be one out there in the multiverse)

[Trojan]

There's really no need to assume that any such thing as antimatter exists in a universe where magic works and deities waved their hands to create the world. This makes for a fun thought experiment, but I've always figured that in a fantasy universe, dramatic necessity is ultimately more important than any physical laws.

I always work on the basis that the less you change or hand-wave away the better - it is the limitations on the possible which give rise to drama in my view. With magic around you can always come up with a permanent effect if you want to do some handwaving, I'd just hang a lantern on it to keep the players happy and let them know how to stop it if they were so inclined.

So I allow magic but see it as requiring power - from the surrounding natural world, from spiritual power, from an outer-plane etc - with the caster then drawing it together directing and shaping it - doesn't change much in practice but impacts non-magic zones and so on. I admit to swiping the idea from Dark Sun and Katherine Kerr's Deverry series when I got the Birthright campaign setting where they split magic-users into wizards (vanilla 2e magic-users but rare) and magicians (who only had lesser magic that didn't need much power but were reasonably common).

#(Yes, I know, I should really read Diskworld.)

Pratchett is great, I recommend "Guards Guards" as one of your early reads (there are actually several series set in the discworld, the guards which start with "guards guards", the Witches which start with "equal rites", rincewind/the wizards which start with "the colour of magic" but take a little while to settle down imho, DEATH who starts with "Mort" etc), Good Omens (with Neil Gaimen) is another one of his that is well worth a read - or two, I have to admit that the gnomes trilogy is a favourite despite being for younger readers.

[willpell]

I always work on the basis that the less you change or hand-wave away the better - it is the limitations on the possible which give rise to drama in my view.

A reasonable enough attitude. Myself, I really don't care for drama, and I prefer my fantasy fantastic. As long as it's not so over-the-top as to insult my intelligence, I can roll with a lot of hand-waving, particularly if an entirely cosmetic attempt to make it make sense has been included.

[Occams Meataxe]

I've always assumed the D&D Universes are powered by Narrativium, not physics

[mnementh]

I am Chaos incarnate; therefore, the MoM is possible.


mnem
It may take slightly longer, however.

[Baphomet]

Do we even know that things in D&D universes are made of atoms? You'd think there would be some magic that related to that if they were. Considering how much magic can affect specific people or items without also affecting the surrounding matter, I think it's more likely that objects in D&D universes are truly solid discreet objects that just happen to behave similarly to objects in our universe on a macro scale. I also recall something in the space supplement (the name escapes me) about starships running on a quasi-analogue of a nuclear reactor that produced power by smashing positive and negative energy together. If nuclear power were possible, wouldn't it be easier to use that instead? I certainly don't think D&D organisms reproduce via sharing DNA, considering how many wacky crossbreeds are possible; it's probably a more magic-based process where the two parent organisms are combined conceptually rather than genetically. And while diseases exist, they're magically curable and sometimes explicitly supernatural and capable of doing things like turning you into an entirely different creature that drinks blood and can't stand sunlight. I'd say they're more like a magical affliction than a physical one. Even if they're not, microorganisms could still exist in a universe with no atomic particles, if we're already presupposing the existence of magic-based reproduction.

Besides those things, I can't think of anything that D&D models that can only be explained by the actions of atomic particles. If you lived in a D&D world, I think occam's razor would discount the idea that the entire universe is composed of uncountable invisible objects directing invisible fields of invisible forces in vast empty space. It's more likely that you are an object and the axe you're holding is an object and that goblin is an object until you combine it with the axe and some force and then it's two objects.

[willpell]

Do we even know that things in D&D universes are made of atoms?

Personally I'm inclined to assume they specifically aren't. More likely it's a universe of quasi-Platonic Ideals, symbols given solidity and form, even if one of them is a symbol of some groady guy who hangs out in a tavern waiting to give adventurers a quest.

And while diseases exist, they're magically curable and sometimes explicitly supernatural and capable of doing things like turning you into an entirely different creature that drinks blood and can't stand sunlight.

Not to mention that there are just plain about a thousand times fewer of them. I had a LONG argument with myself over whether to say that bacteria existed in my campaign setting; eventually I cam to the conclusion that they did, but that they were far less common and not so driven to replicate, so they're almost always benign unless malevolent spiritual forces get involved (not necessarily Outer Plane beings; a dire rat spreads filth fever because rat-spirits are disease-spirits, but the bacteria aren't trying to replicate their DNA, they're just being used as pawns by the disease spirits, intentionally cranking out toxins that poison the host organism because they were "told" to, rather than because it's their inherent life process.

If you lived in a D&D world, I think occam's razor would discount the idea that the entire universe is composed of uncountable invisible objects directing invisible fields of invisible forces in vast empty space.

Occam's Razor almost certainly isn't applicable; it's too contrary to the Rules of Drama, Cool, Funny and so forth.

[mnementh]

ALL D&D Realms exist entirely in MemeSpace. There is no other way they could survive interaction with the Nerds who campaign them.


mnem
Occam can sit on it & twirl.

[RedwoodElf]

Well, as just one example, Volcanos in D&D worlds spew lava, not because of plate tectonics, but because of an intrusion into the prime material plane of the earth/fire Lava demiplane.

It's all magic. Even Artificer "Tech" is Magic.