[18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

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Glemp
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[18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Glemp » Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:46 pm


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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by ForgetsKeys » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:48 pm

I enjoy the dialogue here. I'm sure some people will still be upset that Kin came back to Minmax, and that's fair. Not everyone needs to agree on the "right" way to handle this situation.

But I agree that anybody can make a mistake. However, not everybody can admit their mistake, regret their mistake, accept the consequences of their mistake, and try to change to avoid making that mistake again.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Hope_Caswell » Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:33 pm

Well, at long last, we have a resolution. It's not quite what I hoped for, but it'll do.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by TrickyLA » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:10 pm

I just wanted to say that I went scouring for the forums to join, and even joined the Discord, all because of this. I've been waiting for years for these two to finally have this conversation, and I couldn't be happier! I'm so excited and am eagerly awaiting more!

I really just want these two to be happy. :shy: 8)

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Krulle » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:39 am

Good, a short story about how both did wrong, and it took distance to see the own errors.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by sensate » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:51 am

Wow, it took 8 years for this moment. So, so, so sweet!

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by elkhantar » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:00 am

Was it really that long?? man, I hadn't realized.

That they are able to share feelings helps greatly to solve the situation. He made a big mistake, but she could feel it was just that, a mistake.

Hopefully they can move forward together.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by GathersIngredients » Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:13 am

It makes me wonder a little bit just how much time has passed for Kin.

(She stayed in the MoM with the other Kins - Ruby, Saphire and Onyx, iirc. - for "some time" to level up before going back with the Jade Teapot, at least that was the plan when she made MinMax leave. As we can all see, she used the teapot to find MinMax again, and for him, not a lot of time has passed, so unless she found some way to teleport WITH the teapot to her home, she postponed the bringing it back home and probably just stashed it somewhere safe and used it there, instead, but not much time has could have passed outside of the MoM for Kin, unless she found a way to travel in time.)
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by ForgetsKeys » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:55 am

GathersIngredients wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:13 am As we can all see, she used the teapot to find MinMax again, and for him, not a lot of time has passed, so unless she found some way to teleport WITH the teapot to her home, she postponed the bringing it back home and probably just stashed it somewhere safe and used it there, instead, but not much time has could have passed outside of the MoM for Kin, unless she found a way to travel in time.)
I agree, she most likely stashed the teapot somewhere, but for the sake of argument it IS possible that she could have traveled further than we think. We know at least 1 day has passed since Minmax left the maze because we saw him (and Forgath) sleeping. Also, since Minmax and Kin left the maze two separate ways (from the teapot and the teleportation circle, respectively), there COULD be some weird time travel stuff happening. For example, maybe Kin reappeared in the world the very moment that they all went into the maze, but since Minmax used the Jade Teapot to bypass the teleportation, he could have reappeared later in the world. E.g., if their most recent run of the maze took 24 hours, he reappeared 24 hours after they had entered the maze.

That still doesn't give much time, but if it's later revealed that Kin made it home with the teapot, I'll accept it.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Velgar » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:40 am

DITTO!

...

That is all. :P
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Krulle » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:07 am

ForgetsKeys wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:55 am
GathersIngredients wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:13 am As we can all see, she used the teapot to find MinMax again, and for him, not a lot of time has passed, so unless she found some way to teleport WITH the teapot to her home, she postponed the bringing it back home and probably just stashed it somewhere safe and used it there, instead, but not much time has could have passed outside of the MoM for Kin, unless she found a way to travel in time.)
I agree, she most likely stashed the teapot somewhere, but for the sake of argument it IS possible that she could have traveled further than we think. We know at least 1 day has passed since Minmax left the maze because we saw him (and Forgath) sleeping. Also, since Minmax and Kin left the maze two separate ways (from the teapot and the teleportation circle, respectively), there COULD be some weird time travel stuff happening. For example, maybe Kin reappeared in the world the very moment that they all went into the maze, but since Minmax used the Jade Teapot to bypass the teleportation, he could have reappeared later in the world. E.g., if their most recent run of the maze took 24 hours, he reappeared 24 hours after they had entered the maze.

That still doesn't give much time, but if it's later revealed that Kin made it home with the teapot, I'll accept it.
That may be one thing, also Kin likely exited through the portals for the winners of the MoM.
It may teleport directly where you want to be in your realm, thus bringing her and the teapot directly to her clan.

We simply do not know.

edit! blue and red circles:
https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/09192013-2/
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Hope_Caswell » Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:49 pm

Krulle wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:07 amIt may teleport directly where you want to be in your realm, thus bringing her and the teapot directly to her clan.
Or the Kin-clan edited the code of the maze-exit circles to have that function, when they were finished gaining twelve levels each.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by cbertrand » Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:17 pm

Glemp wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:46 pm https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-15-2021

Aww...
You misspelled that. It is supposed to start with an “E”.

;-)

*sigh* Seriously, though, unless Elipsis pulls off a miracle, the only way I think I will be able to stomache this is by mentally changing/swapping the headshots and dialogue of the two distressing panels in:

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/10222013

(Panels 9 and 10)

The trouble is the cognitive dissonance. Minmax really acted like an abuser in that page and the following ones (makes a conscious decision to assault her, then is _so_ sorry afterwards) even though we know he is not an abuser.

I guess I might be able to accept it if Kin says something a la: “I would never have come near you again, after what you did, if it weren’t for the fact that I can ‘see’ you and know you really didn’t mean to magically control me; that that is not who you truly are.”

Please, does anybody know if Elipsis has addressed this in some blog or post, like she did when some people felt she was making light of suicide?
Last edited by cbertrand on Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by cbertrand » Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:20 pm

Krulle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:39 am Good, a short story about how both did wrong, and it took distance to see the own errors.
Um . . . What did Kin ever do wrong?

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Generic » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:35 am

cbertrand wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:20 pm
Krulle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:39 am Good, a short story about how both did wrong, and it took distance to see the own errors.
Um . . . What did Kin ever do wrong?
She did not run screaming from a text book violent manchild abuser. That is what she did wrong.

I am all for an abuse story unfolding. But if this turns "Aww" I never think I'll shake the taste of his deliberate and cruel assault of her.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Velgar » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:21 am

Generic wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:35 am She did not run screaming from a text book violent manchild abuser. That is what she did wrong.
You... Might want to reconsider your reading material.

He's dumb, he's stupid, he's an absolute idiot. But violent he is as far as the realm requires, manchild he is by his intelligence and abuser he is only on Herbert and his rules.

With Kin he made an honest, if huge, mistake. And they're both mature enough to understand that. :?
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Generic » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 am

Velgar wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:21 am
Generic wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:35 am She did not run screaming from a text book violent manchild abuser. That is what she did wrong.
You... Might want to reconsider your reading material.

He's dumb, he's stupid, he's an absolute idiot. But violent he is as far as the realm requires, manchild he is by his intelligence and abuser he is only on Herbert and his rules.

With Kin he made an honest, if huge, mistake. And they're both mature enough to understand that. :?
https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/10222013

How is this for reading material?

One might want a reordering of the frames, but this is what happens. A frame is dedicated to him looking before he acts.

Unless "fate" has something positive in store for Kin, she really should not be with anyone who does shit like that.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Velgar » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:29 pm

Generic wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 am https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/10222013

How is this for reading material?

One might want a reordering of the frames, but this is what happens. A frame is dedicated to him looking before he acts.

Unless "fate" has something positive in store for Kin, she really should not be with anyone who does shit like that.
And there have been couple of arguments against that being "text book example", especially when we already have a proper text book example of violent manchild abuser in Goblinslayer. He's the text book case. Not Minmax. Not even by a long shot.

Mixing those people together is aKin to saying a parent who pulls their child forcefully away from a carnival ride is on bar with a parent who beats theirs just because they're drunk and angry.

Heck, even purepred murderer could and in history have turned new leaves in their lives and made amends. Did they deserve to get that chance is a whole another debate though...

But in this instance Minmax really did make the choice of taking hold of the leash. 'Cose he knew, yes, he KNEW it would make her stop and listen to her. It was the last chance he could grasp to explain himself, to try to reason with Kin. It was the absolute last resort he could think of, 'cose yes, he KNEW it'd work.

And that's it.

He could have tried using it to make her "love him". He could have tried using it to make her "believe him", "accept him", "SEE him" (we have already gone through this with Kin that it shouldn't be possible over species and likely isn't).

All in vain of course, 'cose we know the leash only works as long as you're holding it, but I doubt Minmax would be that wise.

Heck. He tried to just hand the leash back to her, like she would be in any way capable of taking it before he told her to do so.

He didn't think of forcing Kin to do anything but stop and listen to him. That was all he was thinking. Not thinking how he could take over her mind and force her into obedience and make her love him and do all sorts of nasty snakethings to his body. No.

He just used the very last thing he knew to work, to get a chance to talk, to explain.

And he goofed it up big time. He didn't in anyway consider what the leash was and what it meant for Kin. He didn't (and probably couldn't have even) thought that far. He. Is. Stupid.

Demanding him to understand on that spot how the leash has over the years affected Kin and how using it would affect her is like telling a cripple to run. And it doesn't work like in Forest Gump, just so you know.

And when he goofed up. He understood it. Even he, out of all people, knew he had crossed a line. Even an absolute idiot could see he had done wrong. And he accepted it. If that isn't maturity, then there's no adults in this world either.

So no wonder Kin could also put few twos together after some time and realize, even without the necklace, that there might be something more than just another Goblinslayer about Minmax.

But for some reason couple of people here are really adamant about making Minmax into another Goblinslayer and that kind of blindness for people's motivations, actions and reasoning is frankly rather baffling.

I'm not even sure all of us are in agreement that Minmax and Goblinslayer are amazingly different characters about this...
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Velgar » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:36 pm

~The smallest of pebbles can start an avalanche, but even the greatest of boulders can hit nothing.~

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Hope_Caswell » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:24 pm

Velgar wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:29 pmI'm not even sure all of us are in agreement that Minmax and Goblinslayer are amazingly different characters about this...
Are you freaking kidding me? I'm trying not to unleash vehement rancor here, but how can you even say that? Dellyn was an unrepentant monster who cared nothing for anyone but himself, lied to his leaders and manipulated the public to gain more power, was both a rapist and a flat-out sadist who tortured sentinent creatures to amuse himself, and didn't hesitate to send his own men to their deaths for marginal tactical benefit for himself. Minmax may be a little vain and self-centered, but he has as much in common with Dellyn as a cool summer breeze has with a category 6 hurricane. They're both windbags, but the worst Minmax might metaphorically do is knock your hat off your head, while Dellyn will wash your entire town out to sea and kill thousands. I don't even begin to see how you can compare them even remotely.

Deep breaths, Hope, deep breaths.

Okay, reading the rest of your post, I see that you Velgar are not actually making the argument that Minmax and Dellyn are alike. But you're saying some people have made that argument, and so my incredulous question above is directed toward whoever they are, rather than to you.
Demanding him to understand on that spot how the leash has over the years affected Kin and how using it would affect her is like telling a cripple to run. And it doesn't work like in Forest Gump, just so you know.
Just for the record, the term "cripple" (whether it's offensive or not) is generally used to describe the *physically* disabled, not the intellectually "inferior" such as Forrest. I haven't seen the movie, it is set some time in the past, and Hecate knows that bigots are frequently imprecise in their language use, so I don't know if anyone actually calls Forest that, or if it's said to Lt. Dan, or what. I agree that regardless of whether the person's disability cripples their body or their mind, you can't just tell them to get over it (I'm certified mentally disabled myself, so if anyone was about to shout "ableism" because I used a word, don't bother). But they *can* improve their own condition somewhat over time, to a perhaps limited extent. Overall I think we're on the same page about this issue.
And when he goofed up. He understood it. Even he, out of all people, knew he had crossed a line. Even an absolute idiot could see he had done wrong. And he accepted it. If that isn't maturity, then there's no adults in this world either.
Well it is a D&D world, after all. Maturity isn't exactly a character stat, let alone one that anybody avoids dumping.
Generic wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 amUnless "fate" has something positive in store for Kin, she really should not be with anyone who does shit like that.
"Fate", as in our author, almost certainly does. And even if she doesn't GET a happy ending, it's absolutely in character for her to SEEK one here, by forgiving the person who thoughtlessly wronged her once, after having freed her from the absolute psychopath who kept her as a sex slave for years.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by cbertrand » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:11 pm

Generic wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 am One might want a reordering of the frames, but this is what happens. A frame is dedicated to him looking before he acts.

Unless "fate" has something positive in store for Kin, she really should not be with anyone who does shit like that.
I am almost with you, except that this _is_ just a story. Since it is a very good story, imho, I have no problem assuming Elipsis messed up that page. Thus, I can flip the panels, and assume that Kin only came back because, unlike what would be likely in the real world, Minmax really _isn’t_ that way _and_ Kin can be certain of that because she can see him.

FYI, I do not know if I would say Minmax is a textbook example of an abuser, but what he did, as drawn, is a textbook example of abusive behavior. (If the panels are flipped, imho, what he did becomes a text book _warning sign_)
Last edited by cbertrand on Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by cbertrand » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:27 pm

Velgar wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:29 pm And there have been couple of arguments against that being "text book example", especially when we already have a proper text book example of violent manchild abuser in Goblinslayer. He's the text book case. Not Minmax. Not even by a long shot.

. . . <big bloody snip> . . .

But for some reason couple of people here are really adamant about making Minmax into another Goblinslayer and that kind of blindness for people's motivations, actions and reasoning is frankly rather baffling.

I'm not even sure all of us are in agreement that Minmax and Goblinslayer are amazingly different characters about this...
I certainly agree that Minmax and Goblinslayer are not on the same level as each other, any more than Kobe Bryant was on the same level as Ratko Mladić or Slobodan Milošević.

However, Goblin Slayer is most definitely _not_ the textbook example of an abuser; GS is a caricature of one. He is a big, scenery-chewing bad guy. Most abusers are not as obvious as that. It is dangerous to think that they are.
Last edited by cbertrand on Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by cbertrand » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:36 pm

Seriously, does anybody know if Elipsis has addressed this in a blog somewhere? All she has to do for me to get past this is something a la: “Minmax did not grab the leash to use it’s magic. He was just trying to hold her back and her shoulder was too far away”

Still not good, but orders of magnitude less bad, imho. The situation becomes much more believable (for me, at least). Then I could accept Kin saying “You didn’t mean to assault me” because she could see him and realize that that had not been his intention.

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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Generic » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:20 pm

Velgar wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:29 pm Mixing those people together is aKin to saying a parent who pulls their child forcefully away from a carnival ride is on bar with a parent who beats theirs just because they're drunk and angry.
I'll get back to you momentarily. I need some breakfast. But... Yeah?

Good thing I did not mix those. You did.

Edit: Alright. I'm back. Err... MinMax is stupid, da da, did not know better, should be able to make amends...

at least he did not do xx and yy when he grabbed the rape mind control thing...

:puke:

Well, even a pure bred murderer, (as MinMax... kinda per definition is) can make amends. He did not however. He let her out of a room, injuring her in the process due to his inabilities. That's it. What? He did also feel bad? That is bare minimum of a start of a redemption, not an actual redemption.

What has happened is that Kin returned on her own accord, and decided to forgive him. She really, really should not.

I think "a life through their eyes" angle for MinMax, where he is an abuser, would be great! He is built for strength and domination, and totally lack anything else in his repertoire. Him totally destroying Kin throughout the story would be really, really good.
Her returning to an abuser, because that is what happens in stories, is not really really good.
Things that could happen with this plot:
1. Kin returns and forgives him without much reason. Everything turns out well.
2. Kin returns and forgives him without much reason. Everything turns to total shit (what I hope for)
3. MinMax has a long and hard road of redemption to walk, eventually coming to terms with what he done. They might, or might not, end up together, for better or worse (This is also a fine storyline. We don't seem to be going down that path though)

And, no. Sorry. He is not a text book abuser. He and Kin has not known each other long enough for him to tick all the boxes. I take that back. "This far he gives a looot of dangerous signs" would probably be more correct to what I intended to say. Yeah, sure. I am backpaddling. Discredit all I said. Whatever.

For the record: MinMax might not be a text book abuser, but nor is Goblinslayer. He is a despot who revels in being a comic book villain. He did not have a relationship with Kin. He had her as a trophy. Using the fact that he raped her as something to gloat about, to his fan club (MinMax). He never needed to manipulate her. He just straight up forced her.
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Re: [18 October 2021] - Heart to Heart

Post by Generic » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:41 am

cbertrand wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:11 pm
Generic wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 am One might want a reordering of the frames, but this is what happens. A frame is dedicated to him looking before he acts.

Unless "fate" has something positive in store for Kin, she really should not be with anyone who does shit like that.
I am almost with you, except that this _is_ just a story. Since it is a very good story, imho, I have no problem assuming Elipsis messed up that page. Thus, I can flip the panels, and assume that Kin only came back because, unlike what would be likely in the real world, Minmax really _isn’t_ that way _and_ Kin can be certain of that because she can see him.

FYI, I do not know if I would say Minmax is a textbook example of an abuser, but what he did, as drawn, is a textbook example of abusive behavior. (If the panels are flipped, imho, what he did becomes a text book _warning sign_)
And then I read your posts. Yes. Yes, I used the wrong term. Call it an ill thought out rethorical throwaway on my part. I 100% roll over on my back and take the text book back. I think we agree on MinMax having been abusive, as written.

As for panel flipping: Ok. Flipped panels would give it a different meaning. And panel placement as a story telling method is easy to mess up. Making comics is hard, and this MIGHT not have been what Elli intended. But we're, what... 8 years down the line? And the panel still is as it's shown.

You seem to think it's a mistake (please correct me if I'm wrong, I hate making assumptions on other people's opinion), I think it's on purpose. I agree to disagree, but you'll not sway me from my opinion that MinMax did that, knowing what he did. What speaks for your intepretation is what is happening right now. This would be easier to digest if MinMax just reached out for ANYTHING to grab and it happened to be the leash.
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