[17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

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Blaster
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Blaster » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 am

Okay.

Seriously, this senior gobbo angel needs someone to put her in her place. She's too self-righteous.

First, she says "Some ceremonies needs to be complicated, and some other do not". Allright. Yet I fail to see how chief would know than you only need to put a hand print on someone's face. Also: Being a chief would NEED all the tribe to know that you're the chief. That's the practical part of the ceremony!

"Hey fellas! This guy is the boss now!"


Second: When the angel chiefed Complains his stats went up a bit. But it seems that they did not when Chief chiefed him. ERGO: No Ceremony. No Real Chief.
Sorry, tall girl.


Third: Complains is part demon now. And all we know that you do not wanna have someone who shares a bed with a demon as your king. Maybe she's privvy to some info about how in the future, he will be awesome, part angel, a primordial lord or something like that, but for the time being, Complains wouldn't be the best candidate for chief.

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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Hjerne » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:57 am

Generic wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:27 pm
redfeather wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:14 pm
Generic thinks the angel has a club; Krulle thinks it's a SPEAR somehow. Am I the only one who sees that it's obviously a sword? (More specifically something akin to a machete or falchion, a big heavy choppy kind of sword with a cutting edge that borders on an axe. This comic's author really likes hybrid weapons, it seems. Pretty sure there are some blatantly obvious weapons we've never seen, but I'm not up to an archive dive to find out which ones have actually been missed, and which ones were being wielded by some random goon in the background of some panel somewhere.)
Super thick material. Obtuse edges for striking (that crack shows the edge is about 90degrees). Cracks in the material dom't seems to bother Gellin. A... nische in the back for something... It's obviously not meant for chopping, so I'm in the spear camp. I might return to the wand camp due to those crystals embedded in the board.
It seems like you are somehow interpreting the white lower part of the blade as being a flat striking surface that is 90 degrees bent from the grey part. I see it as light reflecting differently off the beveled part. What it actually seems closest to is a glaive with an unusually short haft. On an actual glaive the crescent at the back of the blade would be for hooking the enemy and pulling them off their feet or horse. With the guard being so close it's just a decoration. It looks like Elli wanted to create a glaive that was wielded like a greatsword, or a greatsword that looked like a glaive.

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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Generic » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:49 pm

Hjerne wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:57 am
Generic wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:27 pm
redfeather wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:14 pm
Generic thinks the angel has a club; Krulle thinks it's a SPEAR somehow. Am I the only one who sees that it's obviously a sword? (More specifically something akin to a machete or falchion, a big heavy choppy kind of sword with a cutting edge that borders on an axe. This comic's author really likes hybrid weapons, it seems. Pretty sure there are some blatantly obvious weapons we've never seen, but I'm not up to an archive dive to find out which ones have actually been missed, and which ones were being wielded by some random goon in the background of some panel somewhere.)
Super thick material. Obtuse edges for striking (that crack shows the edge is about 90degrees). Cracks in the material dom't seems to bother Gellin. A... nische in the back for something... It's obviously not meant for chopping, so I'm in the spear camp. I might return to the wand camp due to those crystals embedded in the board.
It seems like you are somehow interpreting the white lower part of the blade as being a flat striking surface that is 90 degrees bent from the grey part. I see it as light reflecting differently off the beveled part. What it actually seems closest to is a glaive with an unusually short haft. On an actual glaive the crescent at the back of the blade would be for hooking the enemy and pulling them off their feet or horse. With the guard being so close it's just a decoration. It looks like Elli wanted to create a glaive that was wielded like a greatsword, or a greatsword that looked like a glaive.
There is a crack where the board is extra thin. Close to the glaive hook. Zoom in on that. That crack makes it look like the edge is 90 degrees. So, no. I don't see a flat striking part. I see the white part as beveled 45 degrees from the gray part. It's a super thick blade with an edge that is not accute.

I would say glaive if it had any kind of practical edge. Anything else that is sharp in comic has a shine effect to it, or is colored in a gradient to symbolize a bevel. This has a clear drawn line where the bevel begins. Suggesting a much steeper angle than usual? The material is matte. I think it comes across as just a big slab of cracked and painted cast iron or something. Badass if it had been a mace.

The real edge is the one behind. The one with the hook. The bevel is much less steep there. The guard would not allow the weapon to be swung that way however. The wing would get caught on your arm. So... it's a thrusting weapon with a cutting edge(?) and... perhaps a point? So, a spear, used like a schyte? Or as you say, a glaive? Not drawn as if it was sharp though, so I really don't know. Closest is a wierd mutant spear.

Or a blunt massive cast iron "sword" swung with such force so sharpness don't matter anymore. 95 kilograms of accelerated pure pain. In most contexts called a "club".
But, then Gellin has a sharp hook that would hit her if it would bounce back. And a narrow part more likely to break. Why is that there?
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Generic » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:26 pm

Blaster wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 am
[...]
Second: When the angel chiefed Complains his stats went up a bit. But it seems that they did not when Chief chiefed him. ERGO: No Ceremony. No Real Chief.
Sorry, tall girl.
[...]
Chief could never Chief anyone. Even when dying. He could undo the "hollow goblin" thing though. The one Complains explained in this very scene! I know Gellin say's "selected you" but that does not mean "made you".
Last edited by Generic on Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by AeronGrey » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:28 pm

Generic wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:49 pm
Hjerne wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:57 am
Generic wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:27 pm


Super thick material. Obtuse edges for striking (that crack shows the edge is about 90degrees). Cracks in the material dom't seems to bother Gellin. A... nische in the back for something... It's obviously not meant for chopping, so I'm in the spear camp. I might return to the wand camp due to those crystals embedded in the board.
It seems like you are somehow interpreting the white lower part of the blade as being a flat striking surface that is 90 degrees bent from the grey part. I see it as light reflecting differently off the beveled part. What it actually seems closest to is a glaive with an unusually short haft. On an actual glaive the crescent at the back of the blade would be for hooking the enemy and pulling them off their feet or horse. With the guard being so close it's just a decoration. It looks like Elli wanted to create a glaive that was wielded like a greatsword, or a greatsword that looked like a glaive.
There is a crack where the board is extra thin. Close to the glaive hook. Zoom in on that. That crack makes it look like the edge is 90 degrees. So, no. I don't see a flat striking part. I see the white part as beveled 45 degrees from the gray part. It's a super thick blade with an edge that is not accute.

I would say glaive if it had any kind of practical edge. Anything else that is sharp in comic has a shine effect to it, or is colored in a gradient to symbolize a bevel. This has a clear drawn line where the bevel begins. Suggesting a much steeper angle than usual? The material is matte. I think it comes across as just a big slab of cracked and painted cast iron or something. Badass if it had been a mace.

The real edge is the one behind. The one with the hook. The bevel is much less steep there. The guard would not allow the weapon to be swung that way however. The wing would get caught on your arm. So... it's a thrusting weapon with a cutting edge(?) and... perhaps a point? So, a spear, used like a schyte? Or as you say, a glaive? Not drawn as if it was sharp though, so I really don't know. Closest is a wierd mutant spear.

Or a blunt massive cast iron "sword" swung with such force so sharpness don't matter anymore. 95 kilograms of accelerated pure pain. In most contexts called a "club".
But, then Gellin has a sharp hook that would hit her if it would bounce back. And a narrow part more likely to break. Why is that there?
Guys, it's obviously a cricket bat... :P

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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Generic » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:36 pm

AeronGrey wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:28 pm
Guys, it's *obviously* a cricket bat...
Yes! Or a baguette peel.

Next she'll whip out a ball to strike Complain's down with. Whack!
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Inspired » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:28 am

Part of the beauty of a fantasy world is that weapons do not have to make sense, and can be created following the rule of cool. While it is nice and entertaining to discuss whether they would have a practical use, I'm more inclined to think that is way besides the point they are created for.

Unless, of course, Complains starts to complain about them as his usual self ("No, what you are saying does not make sense. Even your weapon doesn't make sense! I'm so fed up with this place!")
Or a blunt massive cast iron "sword" swung with such force so sharpness don't matter anymore. 95 kilograms of accelerated pure pain. In most contexts called a "club".
Pretty much. Note that heavy swords (like the one depicted in the comic) were indeed used to club the enemy exactly like that. Direct contact with the enemy blades would result in the thinner weapons to break, also the raw blunt force in case of a direct hit would likely break bones even despite wearing some armor. But, they are still swords.
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Krulle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:57 am

The Goblin God complained about how Goblins hold the spears. Maybe the way Trolls Mortals (Gellin) holds the spear is the way Spears are meant to be held....

But maybe "Spear" has a different definition in the Goblin's heaven?


And for the obviousness records: I was joking when I said that's a spear...
Because it would fit what Trolls Mortals said (about Goblins holding Spears very weirdly, and give a comment made in a joke-like manner.
It may just be that we mortals use the words "Sword" and "Spear" wrongly, when compared to the use of the vocabulary as used in the heaven.
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by jbrecken » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:10 am

Every angel needs a bottle opener.

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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Velgar » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:14 am

Blaster wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 am
Second: When the angel chiefed Complains his stats went up a bit. But it seems that they did not when Chief chiefed him. ERGO: No Ceremony. No Real Chief.
Sorry, tall girl.
She actually explains it in the strip herself that yes, Complains was chosen, yes, it needs a ceremony and yes, it does not need to be big and complex thing which she proved when saying: "I am an angel. I can do any ceremony. Boom! You're a chief. It was just that hard. You're welcome."

So yeah. As mentioned, Chief removed his hollow-status and marked him as chief-to-be. But it indeed did need the ritual, why Dies was marked as possible chief by the other clan. Now Trolls Mortals just performed the ceremony, thus giving Complains all the status updates his newfound profession earns.
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Krulle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:45 am

And she did so in expectation of the clan loosing its chief immediately again.
But the newly crowned chief had sidestepped the badly designed trap, so she gave him the stat updates needed to escape narrowly...
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Generic » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:03 pm

Inspired wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:28 am

Pretty much. Note that heavy swords (like the one depicted in the comic) were indeed used to club the enemy exactly like that. Direct contact with the enemy blades would result in the thinner weapons to break, also the raw blunt force in case of a direct hit would likely break bones even despite wearing some armor. But, they are still swords.
Whom and when? You could grip the blade and use the pommel and hilt as a club, sure. But who,where, used heavy swords like Gellins? Most of the really big swords were used for duels,executions or ceremonies. There was some greatswords used against pikes, for a brief period of history. Because they were not as good as a proper polearm. And none came close to this giant slab of nonsense.
When did anyone use swords for breaking blades? As a tactic rather than pure opportunity?
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Generic » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:06 pm

jbrecken wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:10 am
Every angel needs a bottle opener.
Yes! Good one.
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by AeronGrey » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:27 pm

Generic wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:06 pm
jbrecken wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:10 am
Every angel needs a bottle opener.
Yes! Good one.
As well as drugs to get high.

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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Inspired » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:26 am

Generic wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:03 pm
Whom and when? You could grip the blade and use the pommel and hilt as a club, sure. But who,where, used heavy swords like Gellins? Most of the really big swords were used for duels,executions or ceremonies. There was some greatswords used against pikes, for a brief period of history. Because they were not as good as a proper polearm. And none came close to this giant slab of nonsense.
When did anyone use swords for breaking blades? As a tactic rather than pure opportunity?
Nope, anything solid and heavy that you hit with, will cause a blunt trauma to a body, even if it is a blade of the weapon and not the pommel. This clubbing damage passes through some armor better, where a slice or poke would be deflected.

I don't claim they were used specifically to break other blades, I'm stating that when two blades meet and the defender is not deflecting the attack but is trying to block directly, there is a good chance the weaker blade will break (or chipped away). Hence, if you are using hacking/swinging motions, a sword with a thicker blade has the better chances. Granted, it will also be harder to use, but that wasn't the point we are discussing.

I think great swords and long dueling swords aren't the proper example, as they tend to have a different blade structure and fighting style. (Generally: fencing, like you would do with one handed fencing swords or pikes. Let's ignore polearms and other reach weapons for the sake of simplicity as those are used with other techniques.)

What we are looking for are the claymores. Granted, they only weigh about 2.5 kilograms (except for a legendary 10 kg one), but that is already quite heavy for a sword-like weapon. Claymores were quite prevalent in Scotland for quite a while.

(I could mention the executioner swords too, although those weren't used in battle due to them being quite unwieldy. Those would fit the theme of Trolls Mortals being an executioner, though.)

And yes, TM's sword IS a giant slab of nonsense. Why would you decorate with gems in the blade where they are the most likely to be damaged (also, given the technique blades are generally made, including a gem would be quite the magic), why would you have a hook on it, if it's not an easily maneuvarable sword to begin with. Why would you weaken the structure by thinning the part close to the hilt (giving kind of a sabre/scimitar feeling) if the whole point of the blade is being big and strong? And so on, and so on. Again, it is an exaggerated fantasy sword. Is it a(n even remotely) good weapon? Probably not. Could it have realistic roots? I'm still stating yes.
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Krulle » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:53 am

Seeing how it is decorated, it may be a ceremonial sword.
But then, using it for duty is wrong.

But we're in a world where there's magic. So, what do I care if Gellin's (Trolls Mortals') sword is anywhere near real-world practical?
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Generic » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:18 pm

Inspired wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:26 am
Generic wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:03 pm
Whom and when? You could grip the blade and use the pommel and hilt as a club, sure. But who,where, used heavy swords like Gellins? Most of the really big swords were used for duels,executions or ceremonies. There was some greatswords used against pikes, for a brief period of history. Because they were not as good as a proper polearm. And none came close to this giant slab of nonsense.
When did anyone use swords for breaking blades? As a tactic rather than pure opportunity?
Nope, anything solid and heavy that you hit with, will cause a blunt trauma to a body, even if it is a blade of the weapon and not the pommel. This clubbing damage passes through some armor better, where a slice or poke would be deflected.

I don't claim they were used specifically to break other blades, I'm stating that when two blades meet and the defender is not deflecting the attack but is trying to block directly, there is a good chance the weaker blade will break (or chipped away). Hence, if you are using hacking/swinging motions, a sword with a thicker blade has the better chances. Granted, it will also be harder to use, but that wasn't the point we are discussing.

I think great swords and long dueling swords aren't the proper example, as they tend to have a different blade structure and fighting style. (Generally: fencing, like you would do with one handed fencing swords or pikes. Let's ignore polearms and other reach weapons for the sake of simplicity as those are used with other techniques.)

What we are looking for are the claymores. Granted, they only weigh about 2.5 kilograms (except for a legendary 10 kg one), but that is already quite heavy for a sword-like weapon. Claymores were quite prevalent in Scotland for quite a while.

(I could mention the executioner swords too, although those weren't used in battle due to them being quite unwieldy. Those would fit the theme of Trolls Mortals being an executioner, though.)

And yes, TM's sword IS a giant slab of nonsense. Why would you decorate with gems in the blade where they are the most likely to be damaged (also, given the technique blades are generally made, including a gem would be quite the magic), why would you have a hook on it, if it's not an easily maneuvarable sword to begin with. Why would you weaken the structure by thinning the part close to the hilt (giving kind of a sabre/scimitar feeling) if the whole point of the blade is being big and strong? And so on, and so on. Again, it is an exaggerated fantasy sword. Is it a(n even remotely) good weapon? Probably not. Could it have realistic roots? I'm still stating yes.
"Pretty much. Note that heavy swords (like the one depicted in the comic) were indeed used to club the enemy exactly like that."

...?

Whatever.

I am glad we agree this monster of a sword is just that.

A sickle would have been a nice druid touch for this nature monster angel. A spear or javelin would have been suitable, being what the goblins mostly use. But we went with nonsense sword. Shame really.

Still not as silly as Kore's shield though. Damn, that thing had tiny shopping cart wheels in the bottom, and a flip-the-turtle-lever. And a matching zig-zag hole for his single eye slit. And that is not even speaking of the insane foundation of the design.

I kinda miss that shield.
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Generic » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:36 pm

Krulle wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:53 am
Seeing how it is decorated, it may be a ceremonial sword.
But then, using it for duty is wrong.

But we're in a world where there's magic. So, what do I care if Gellin's (Trolls Mortals') sword is anywhere near real-world practical?
Why would duty be wrong for a ceremony tool? Things might very well be allowed to be both sacred and used.

There is a particular beauty in functional design of just about anything. There is also design driving emotion. This weapon does not check any of the boxes.
Example:
The Witch Kings flail from the LotR movies is over the top. It still works though. It's presented in the foreground of the shot. And it's insanely massive and cruel looking. Every swing and move if it has weight and consequence. Eowyn looks totally terrified!

This... thing... is just there. Presented in a totally flat angle and with a bad ass look on Gellin's face. Is it supposed to be imposing? Comical? I know it'll fail to harm Complains, so?
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by seanthepanda » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:25 pm

Hm, let's see. When Complains came back, three of the lights on his sword are lit up, which means he tumble-checked 3 times before making an attack. And he looks unharmed, which means he was being an acrobatic little thing.

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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Krulle » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:51 am

With the broad club Trolls Mortals is swinging, it will serve as a nice stepping stones towards her platform, to pull the lever to be able to get up....

(tumble 1: towards/on the sword;
tumble 2: from sword to her horns, cut, land on head
tumble 3: after flipping the switch, upwards and out of the pocket room/dimension/whatever.)
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Velgar » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:46 pm

Got to go with Krulle on this one. We are talking about a sword in a magic setting. >:?

Not only that, but we are talking about a weapon, of which material we have no idea of, spawned out of nowhere by a culturally postulated otherwordly agent, in a realm that is clearly not standard to even the setting of the story in whole, that we have seen only in this one shot from one angle of which we can't be even absolutely sure of (she might hold it even in slight sideways angle, though unlikely) and trusting that the damage on it runs mostly straight through the blade and not more along the blade...

But yeah. Our world, our materials, our people have certain limitations to what stuff can be. Lets go with those instead. o:)

I for one have no problem seeing it as a sword that can be superbly sharp until I'll be proven otherwise in the comic.
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by meerling » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:50 pm

So she's trying to kill him because he failed to say he'd make a good chief, despite that to his best knowledge he couldn't become a chief because he was a hollow.

She says that he could because Chief, the old chief, did a chief ceremony on him.

He disputes this because all he did was put his bloody hand on his face.

So she does a quick and dirty chiefing ceremony, which makes him a chief and raises his stats.

In other words, the goblin angel was WRONG!

She wouldn't have been able to chief him and cause his stats to gain the chief stat increase if he had already been chiefed!

Whether or not Chief had intended to chief him or not, it didn't take. So when she asked the question, he was still a hollow and couldn't be chief. So her extrapolation that he'd make a great chief was completely wrong as he still couldn't be chief.

Sorry for being so long winded, just trying to go over all the points in this chiefly chain of chiefdom. ;)

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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Krulle » Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:03 am

I took it as confirmation, that Chief at best designated Complains of Names as successor, and did not perform a chiefing ceremony (as chief is not a teller, and can therefore not perform the ceremony).

The angel, being appointed by the God herself, OTOH, could.
And she proofed there does not need to be a speech, or elaborate ceremony.
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Generic » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:05 am

meerling wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:50 pm
So she's trying to kill him because he failed to say he'd make a good chief, despite that to his best knowledge he couldn't become a chief because he was a hollow.

She says that he could because Chief, the old chief, did a chief ceremony on him.

He disputes this because all he did was put his bloody hand on his face.

So she does a quick and dirty chiefing ceremony, which makes him a chief and raises his stats.

In other words, the goblin angel was WRONG!

She wouldn't have been able to chief him and cause his stats to gain the chief stat increase if he had already been chiefed!

Whether or not Chief had intended to chief him or not, it didn't take. So when she asked the question, he was still a hollow and couldn't be chief. So her extrapolation that he'd make a great chief was completely wrong as he still couldn't be chief.

Sorry for being so long winded, just trying to go over all the points in this chiefly chain of chiefdom. ;)
I wonder what it is that made so many people interpret this the way you do. I think it's super clear that Chief first "cursed" Complains, and as his final act lifted the curse.
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Re: [17 November 2020] The Ceremony Really Was in the Nick of Time, and Very Very Short

Post by Velgar » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:26 am

meerling wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:50 pm
In other words, the goblin angel was WRONG!

She wouldn't have been able to chief him and cause his stats to gain the chief stat increase if he had already been chiefed!
The operating difference here being "could you be", not "are you" or even "will you be". Granted, it's a bit of a question how she can read from the character sheet how he would do, but...

The clan was pretty low tier, so probably the bar for "beneficial" is pretty low for them. Even if Chief was alive and well, there could be an argument whether Complains COULD make a better chief than Chief and I'm not 100% sure of the answer even. >:?
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