Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by waspsmacker » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:56 pm

I feel like no matter what Vorpal picked, Trolls Mortals would consider it wrong.

I have a feeling that the test is how you react to being told you're wrong, and not the question itself.

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Generic » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:45 pm

waspsmacker wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:56 pm
I feel like no matter what Vorpal picked, Trolls Mortals would consider it wrong.

I have a feeling that the test is how you react to being told you're wrong, and not the question itself.
That could explain why Elli deflated the tension with a flashback. She wanted us to feel secure where it was headed in order to have our expectations subverted.

I hope not. Because frankly I want this side track to be over. Time for our heroes to go murder Belsebub. The page can not get much more seeping with hellish influence. Kore comically walked out of the picture. Ears got the pain cloak. The hook at this point is the goblins wandering into new rooms and Vorpal touching things.
Get on with it.
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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Starling » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:57 pm

Hjerne wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:13 am
Thaco can easily acrobat his way out but what will Ears do?

I'm not talking about what ability will he use. As a paladin if an angel tells him he has to die then he should accept it.
I think Ears out of the whole party would be one to get his answer right, therefore, he doesn't need to get to the portal on his own.

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by misna » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:09 am

waspsmacker wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:56 pm
I feel like no matter what Vorpal picked, Trolls Mortals would consider it wrong.

I have a feeling that the test is how you react to being told you're wrong, and not the question itself.
Good point. Trolls Mortals does not behave in a very angelic way to me. Deliberately misleading Senor Fumbles. However, who knows what angels are like in this world.

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Doomreaver » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:40 pm

I think there's an assumption that this is as straightforward as it appears. The fact that this is a flashback and that Vorpal said it was tricky to explain seems to serve as a hint that this is not the straightforward death quiz it appears to be.

We know he survives this, and that he is sent back with a free level as a reward for surviving the challenge. If the angel was truly bound to kill him then she'd just do so when the pit didn't kill him, not sent him on his way with a reward. Instead he returns, in tears, and tells everyone not to call him Fumbles any more. I think the actual challenge is tied to personal growth and realizations somehow, and the question. lecture, and the death pit serve to push him to the point where he tells the angel she's wrong, the sheet is wrong, and he refuses to compromise his sense of who he is. His previous statement, while a good step, wasn't enough - he was clearly still seeking validation from her, not solidly affirming who he is (his objection isn't "that is my name" it's "But you said...")

If he had answered "Fumbles", I think she still would have pulled that lever. At the moment, caught between who he was and who he is becoming, Fumbles is no more his name then Vorpal. Knowing and affirming his own identity is the real challenge and the question asked is to test this self-knowledge, and the angel's lecture was not a trap but truly an attempt to help him survive the challenge while still acting in the rules she's bound to.

I doubt Complains will be asked "what is your name?", but some other question that gets at the heart of his identity and convictions. Judging from the fact he was chiefed I suspect it will be more about responsibility then self-identity - and may not even take the form of a quiz like it did for Vorpal.

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Krulle » Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:21 am

Trolls Mortals wrote:Are you willing to fight for who and what you are?
To death?

Because I will pick a fight with you about whatever I can find.
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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Generic » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:51 am

Sure. The premise can always change. The angel can turn out to be a shapeshifter that murders Fumbles, takes his place and returns.
This entire flashback can be Fumbles not remembering everything correctly.
The REAL angel can appear, pissed that this impostor dared to pull her lever.
The timelines can be overlapped, and out of nowhere Complains will appear and pull the horn off her, us now seeing what the other goblins will do in the future.
(Somehow making the clocks make some kind of thematic sense.)

All those things can happen. But at least my assumption is that I should accept the premise the comic presents and go with that. Changing too often or abruptly shakes the credit of the narrative.
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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Sutremaine » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:15 am

misna wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:09 am
Trolls Mortals does not behave in a very angelic way to me.
She did say that she knows "what it's like to be seen by others as something you're not". I'm guessing this is a common reaction from her examinees.

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by redfeather » Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:51 am

Doomreaver wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:40 pm
I doubt Complains will be asked "what is your name?", but some other question that gets at the heart of his identity and convictions. Judging from the fact he was chiefed I suspect it will be more about responsibility then self-identity - and may not even take the form of a quiz like it did for Vorpal.
Perhaps his question will be "What is your species?", or to be a little more edgy in the modern D&D climate, "what is your race"? Or just be clear and concise about it: "Are you a goblin?"

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Generic » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:38 am

redfeather wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:51 am
Doomreaver wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:40 pm
I doubt Complains will be asked "what is your name?", but some other question that gets at the heart of his identity and convictions. Judging from the fact he was chiefed I suspect it will be more about responsibility then self-identity - and may not even take the form of a quiz like it did for Vorpal.
Perhaps his question will be "What is your species?", or to be a little more edgy in the modern D&D climate, "what is your race"? Or just be clear and concise about it: "Are you a goblin?"
"I am not sure I am a Goblin anymore."
Still, he saw a goblin angel. And the angel made him chief of a goblin tribe. Those are two strikes for being a goblin right there.
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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by misna » Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:43 am

Btw. the exact words are:
Angel: “So, I’ve got copy of your character sheet here and I’m going to ask you one question about what’s on it.”
Fumbles: “I’m pretty sure that I know what’s on that paper, but…”

So, the answer is written on the character sheet and Fumbles assumes this is "Fumbles". Thus, that would actually be the right answer.

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Velgar » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:31 pm

redfeather wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:51 am
Perhaps his question will be "What is your species?", or to be a little more edgy in the modern D&D climate, "what is your race"? Or just be clear and concise about it: "Are you a goblin?"
"Why are you so grumpy all the time?" o:)
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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Gift Fastidious » Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:05 pm

Given that Ears is the least likely to be able to escape and the most likely to get the answer right, but also might want to get it wrong on purpose to take the axe to hell, while the angel is quite possibly messing with them, either in general or by just saying their answer is wrong no matter what, I think the funniest result could be Ears trying to get the answer wong but somehow his sarcastic response turns out to be what's on his character sheet, and he's dragged back to the world of the living kicking and screaming.

Also, given the IME wings Complains got, I wonder if they'll ever find it useful to distract Dove by going "Hey, want to get cool wings like this? Just go to this specific dungeon room, touch a gnome egg or whatever, and answer an angel's riddle." Actually, that brings up the question of what would happen if someone without a character sheet touches one of those things.

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Generic » Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:34 pm

Gift Fastidious wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:05 pm
Given that Ears is the least likely to be able to escape and the most likely to get the answer right, but also might want to get it wrong on purpose to take the axe to hell, while the angel is quite possibly messing with them, either in general or by just saying their answer is wrong no matter what, I think the funniest result could be Ears trying to get the answer wong but somehow his sarcastic response turns out to be what's on his character sheet, and he's dragged back to the world of the living kicking and screaming.

Also, given the IME wings Complains got, I wonder if they'll ever find it useful to distract Dove by going "Hey, want to get cool wings like this? Just go to this specific dungeon room, touch a gnome egg or whatever, and answer an angel's riddle." Actually, that brings up the question of what would happen if someone without a character sheet touches one of those things.
She lives in the world herself. She knows what a IME is.

Also, she don't have adventurer levels. She'll not level up in a dungeon.
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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by redfeather » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:11 am

Gift Fastidious wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:05 pm
Also, given the IME wings Complains got, I wonder if they'll ever find it useful to distract Dove by going "Hey, want to get cool wings like this? Just go to this specific dungeon room, touch a gnome egg or whatever, and answer an angel's riddle." Actually, that brings up the question of what would happen if someone without a character sheet touches one of those things.
Do you seriously think we're ever going to see Duv again? I think it's about as likely as a reappearance of the Switchbeast (who was never properly explained, so I'd love to see it come back, but I'm not holding my breath).

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Generic » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:24 am

redfeather wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:11 am
Gift Fastidious wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:05 pm
Also, given the IME wings Complains got, I wonder if they'll ever find it useful to distract Dove by going "Hey, want to get cool wings like this? Just go to this specific dungeon room, touch a gnome egg or whatever, and answer an angel's riddle." Actually, that brings up the question of what would happen if someone without a character sheet touches one of those things.
Do you seriously think we're ever going to see Duv again? I think it's about as likely as a reappearance of the Switchbeast (who was never properly explained, so I'd love to see it come back, but I'm not holding my breath).
She is interesting in the sense that she is Grem's mother. So perhaps we'll get back to her via her relationship with him. Been many years now, so I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Buys Knicknacks » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:42 am

The angel asking Vorpal his name has a few closely related points of significance that no one appears to be addressing:
1) That angel is a direct servitor of the goblin god.
2) All goblins are named by tellers.
3) Tellers are divinely inspired and empowered.

Taken together, the whole name question could easily be decoded as this:
"Will you abide by the wishes of the deity who empowers you even above your own desires?" And as a servant of the goblin god, the angel may have even been trying to warn Vorpal what he was getting into by dint of stating that choosing for oneself is dangerous. I feel like the angel was even underlining this by mentioning the wisdom bonus Vorpal got as a teller, sort of a 'read deeper into what I'm saying than merely my words'. And the angel doesn't seem even remotely happy about having to pull that lever, despite not really having a choice but to abide by the rules.

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Generic » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:41 am

Buys Knicknacks wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:42 am
The angel asking Vorpal his name has a few closely related points of significance that no one appears to be addressing:
1) That angel is a direct servitor of the goblin god.
2) All goblins are named by tellers.
3) Tellers are divinely inspired and empowered.

Taken together, the whole name question could easily be decoded as this:
"Will you abide by the wishes of the deity who empowers you even above your own desires?" And as a servant of the goblin god, the angel may have even been trying to warn Vorpal what he was getting into by dint of stating that choosing for oneself is dangerous. I feel like the angel was even underlining this by mentioning the wisdom bonus Vorpal got as a teller, sort of a 'read deeper into what I'm saying than merely my words'. And the angel doesn't seem even remotely happy about having to pull that lever, despite not really having a choice but to abide by the rules.
Yeah... I got the impression that this is the premise as well. I just thought it did not need to be stated. Or are you saying something I am missing?

As for the wisdom statement: I am sure it's mostly Elli giving us a glimpse of what is on that sheet.
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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Ynnothir Coll » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:07 pm

I made an account here because I just had to comment on this. (I'll put something in the newcomer section later. This comes first.)

I haven't looked at the comic for a while, being as my computer was kaput, so I had some catching up to do. Having done that, I was like, “Well, now I want more“. So I went to the archives and started at the beginning. So meta back then.

Anyway, our poor goblins were aware that Minmax & Co. were coming to give them a beatdown. (Remember those goofy Drow?) Fumbles had the idea to disguise themselves with fake moustaches and came up with the "Kickasso” name. Later, he came up with the idea to make themselves player characters, giving them the ability to take levels. That was Fumbles' idea.

When he did this, he specifically said that he had created a character sheet for his alter ego Senor Vorpal Kickasso! rwstyles was absolutely correct. That is the name on his character sheet.

Trolls Mortals, indeed.

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by WearsHats » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:52 pm

Good eye. I asked Elli about it.
It's his original character sheet for the simple goblin that he was born as. It's not his chosen character sheet that has the fancy origin story, etc. So it says "Fumbles".
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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by ForgetsHisUID » Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:25 am

Velgar wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:09 am
Tarol: "I don't like goofy self-inserts in my comics." :oops:
I appreciate the concerns about using Ellie's deadname, but wasn't this quote from before she stopped using it? I respect the change, but the past is the past, it shouldn't be whitewashed.

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Ynnothir Coll » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:23 am

WearsHats wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:52 pm
Good eye. I asked Elli about it.
It's his original character sheet for the simple goblin that he was born as. It's not his chosen character sheet that has the fancy origin story, etc. So it says "Fumbles".
Aw. Well, it's good to have clarity and that's Word of God. Poor Vorpal, though. I've always had a soft spot for the guy.

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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by WearsHats » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:42 am

ForgetsHisUID wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:25 am
Velgar wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:09 am
Tarol: "I don't like goofy self-inserts in my comics." :oops:
I appreciate the concerns about using Ellie's deadname, but wasn't this quote from before she stopped using it? I respect the change, but the past is the past, it shouldn't be whitewashed.
If you discover an error, you stop making it. Even retroactively. If a scientist makes up a dinosaur by deliberately incorrectly assembling fossils just so he can beat his rival, and then the truth comes out, you stop listing it as a dinosaur and using that name and you realize that the old books that did use it were wrong to do so.

Furthermore, if someone tells you that referring to them by a certain name is traumatic and to please not use it ever again even when referring to the past, it's only right to respect that request rather than needlessly hurting them.
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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by Krulle » Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:15 pm

WearsHats wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:42 am
Furthermore, if someone tells you that referring to them by a certain name is traumatic and to please not use it ever again even when referring to the past, it's only right to respect that request rather than needlessly hurting them.
Same is true for Fumbles in the comic.
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Re: Sept 12 2020 - Sorry Little One

Post by redfeather » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:42 pm

WearsHats wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:42 am
Furthermore, if someone tells you that referring to them by a certain name is traumatic and to please not use it ever again even when referring to the past, it's only right to respect that request rather than needlessly hurting them.
"Please don't traumatize me" is fair enough for close personal friends, but when you're a person who is professionally making a product available (even when the product is a webcomic), you need to accept everyone as your customer, even if they are pointlessly rude to you, because otherwise you are a merchant engaging in discrimination against the members of the public, and that can lead to professional censure regardless of your industry. If the author isn't willing to take a few proverbial lumps when engaging with their audience, then they don't have the right to earn their living from what they're doing. If that means they starve, so be it. Life is a zero-sum game.
WearsHats wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:42 am
ForgetsHisUID wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:25 am
I appreciate the concerns about using Ellie's deadname, but wasn't this quote from before she stopped using it? I respect the change, but the past is the past, it shouldn't be whitewashed.
If you discover an error, you stop making it. Even retroactively. If a scientist makes up a dinosaur by deliberately incorrectly assembling fossils just so he can beat his rival, and then the truth comes out, you stop listing it as a dinosaur and using that name and you realize that the old books that did use it were wrong to do so.
But you do not go to every library in the world, take out every copy of an old book that ever used the ex-dinosaur's name, and scribble it out before returning the books. (Not unless you're the Medieval Catholic Church or a similarly sinister organization, who thinks that thought-policing is totally a-okay as long as it entrenches their power structure.) Forgets has the right of it; the past is sacrosanct, and historical revisionism is never acceptable for any reason. No person's feelings are more important than The Truth.

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