Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

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Generic
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Re: Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

Post by Generic » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:27 am

EcceVos wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:23 am
Science lesson for you guys.

Mass is the amount of matter something contains. Weight is how much gravity pulls on that matter

Density = mass/volume

Density is not a measurement or description of how heavy something is. It is the measurement/description of how much matter is in a given volume of that something.

So Kin's/Forgaths beard could be very dense, more dense than flesh, more dense than steel, and still weigh less than both. Considering they are literally made of magic as expressed by being the color of their IME it is easily conceivable.
Thanks...? So, I guess you're saying that Kins tail now has less volume than before?
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Re: Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

Post by EcceVos » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:09 pm

Generic wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:27 am
EcceVos wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:23 am
Science lesson for you guys.

Mass is the amount of matter something contains. Weight is how much gravity pulls on that matter

Density = mass/volume

Density is not a measurement or description of how heavy something is. It is the measurement/description of how much matter is in a given volume of that something.

So Kin's/Forgaths beard could be very dense, more dense than flesh, more dense than steel, and still weigh less than both. Considering they are literally made of magic as expressed by being the color of their IME it is easily conceivable.
Thanks...? So, I guess you're saying that Kins tail now has less volume than before?
you don't understand molecular physics do you? but again we are dealing with magic here so it's not hard to imagine a magical material having more density and less weight than other materials, mithril and adamantium come to mind. if those concepts are foreign to you i'd suggest picking up some wolverine comics or the LotR series.


Nina,
Nina wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:24 am
EcceVos wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:23 am
Science lesson for you guys.

Mass is the amount of matter something contains. Weight is how much gravity pulls on that matter

Density = mass/volume

Density is not a measurement or description of how heavy something is. It is the measurement/description of how much matter is in a given volume of that something.

So Kin's/Forgaths beard could be very dense, more dense than flesh, more dense than steel, and still weigh less than both. Considering they are literally made of magic as expressed by being the color of their IME it is easily conceivable.

Hi EcceVos.
You are wrong. If hair is (say) ~0.3 grams / cubic centimeter, and steel is 7.85 gram / cubic cm, then in a gravity field, the steel will WEIGH more.

In a constant accelleration, weight is proportional to mass.

For example: 1 cubic meter of steel masses 7.85 tonnes, and has a weight (in Earth's gravity of 9.8 meters / second squared) of:

7.85 tonnes * 9.8 m/(s * s) = 76.93 million Newtons. This is approximately equal to 8.65 short tons in the Imperial system.

Look at how the units are defined. A Newton, a measure of weight, (well force actually), is defined as:

1 Newton = 1 kg * 1 meter / (second * second).

In other words, you take the mass, and multiply it by the acceleration it is undergoing, to get the weight.

Hugs, Nina.
i'm not wrong 1 kg of steel weighs the same as 1 kg of hair, the density is determined by the volume you can squeeze that mass of matter into. mass =/= weight.

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Re: Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

Post by Generic » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:00 am

EcceVos wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:09 pm
[...]

you don't understand molecular physics do you? but again we are dealing with magic here so it's not hard to imagine a magical material having more density and less weight than other materials, mithril and adamantium come to mind. if those concepts are foreign to you i'd suggest picking up some wolverine comics or the LotR series.
[...]
Could you rephrase that? I'm fine with talking about either magic or magical properties. Or both. However: Right now I am not sure what of your arguments relate to what.

And no. I know hardly anything about molecular physics. I will be the first to admit. I can manage equations just fine however. For the density to go up, without adding mass, volume has to go down. By the equation you provided.

But again. What is it you wanna discuss? Magic and semantics (what did Elli really mean by density) or the quite indisputable thing density = mass/volume?

And regarding to your "weight is not mass" point , I can just respond "Well, for the context of our discussion it might as well be".

As a side note: Could my confusion be due to language barriers? In swedish, "densitet" is strictly used for mass per volume, while "täthet" is used for something that is dense, as in numbers of hair on a scalp or the properties of a overgrown forest. I've heard english speakers talk about hair density. I've heard it about wood, but there it's mostly a looks, resitance to rot, and weight thing. I've never heard anyone use it (as in NOT d=m/v) for general material properties however. Is this a thing?
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Re: Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

Post by WearsHats » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:54 am

No need to get sharp with each other.

We're all agreed that density is mass per volume, and that weight is mass times gravitational pull. That's 8th grade physics.

Kin's tail and Forgath's beard are direct replacements of the originals, and thus the exact same volume. So, unless they're hollow (which would change the total volume while keeping the exterior volume the same), a difference in physical density must be a difference in mass.

Hardness is a separate material property dependent on many factors including the strength and configuration of the molecular bonds, but which often has some correlation with density. It's entirely possible to have a lighter material be harder/stronger than a material with greater density.

None of which really matters here. Kin's tail is composed of a fictional magical material that appears to be of a similar mass to the original, but which is nigh invulnerable to physical damage. Density is somehow involved, but there are a couple of possible applicable interpretations of that term (physical density, particle/field density, etc.) and insufficient information to determine the exact mechanism involved.

All that matters (and basically all that we know right now) is that Kin is able to move her tail normally, but that it's an invulnerable magical construct.
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Re: Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

Post by Generic » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:36 am

Yeah. I get that it does not matter. I'll take the point and will not discuss things the comic don't bring to the front specifically that much.
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Re: Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

Post by Nina » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:18 am

EcceVos wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:09 pm
i'm not wrong 1 kg of steel weighs the same as 1 kg of hair, the density is determined by the volume you can squeeze that mass of matter into. mass =/= weight.
Hi EcceVos.
If you take 1 kg of hair and compressed it so that there were no air spaces (say so it looked like your toe nails), it would still have a lower density than steel. Let's say that you kept compressing it until it became neutron star stuff. Then yes, its density would then be higher than steel. But then it is 'neutronium', and no longer hair.

This whole discussion is about constant volumes and the density of materials. If you have a cubic meter of hair, and a cubic meter steel, and a cubic meter of neutron star stuff, what will weigh more?

***

Getting back to the original discussion about Forgath's beard and Kin's tail. Their volume has not changed. If they were more dense, then they would weight more.

(I'm talking regular physics, not magic.)

Several people have said, that the weight will be proportional to the density.

You argued no, saying Kin could be dense but low weight. No one has suggested that her volume has changed.
EcceVos wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:09 pm
Science lesson for you guys.

Mass is the amount of matter something contains. Weight is how much gravity pulls on that matter

Density = mass/volume

Density is not a measurement or description of how heavy something is. It is the measurement/description of how much matter is in a given volume of that something.

So Kin's/Forgaths beard could be very dense, more dense than flesh, more dense than steel, and still weigh less than both. Considering they are literally made of magic as expressed by being the color of their IME it is easily conceivable.

So the basic point remains. If you have a given volume of two items, the more dense one WILL have a higher weight.


You also say that mass is not equal to weight. Yes, of course. One is the property of matter to resist acceleration, and the other is a force. (I find it interesting, that physics has such a poor idea of what mass IS.)

***

Most people don't care about volumes, densities, and weights. This is supposed to be a forum for Goblins. ( I'm sure that Elli used the word 'density', metaphorically.)

But I don't like incorrect science being taught.

No offense, I hope.

***

Belatedly, best wishes to Elli about the fall down stairs. Hope she is feeling better / not badly hurt.

Hugs, Nina.

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Re: Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

Post by Krulle » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:54 am

WearsHats wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 am
It's just better lighting and angle, so we can see the scales. It's not a redesign. Just more detailed art, which is a thing that's been happening since the comic started as black and white squiggles.
As reply to this (Danny refers to this page as "previous page")
https://twitter.com/OldDannyYoung/status/1219245130781265922 wrote: I may not have the right vocabulary to ask clearly, but the finished scale pattern and texture on her tail is really impressive. Are you drawing that every single time? Did you create / use some kind of effect? I didn’t notice until the last comic but it’s awesome. 👍
https://mobile.twitter.com/EllipsisGoblins/status/1219314887643385862 wrote: That pattern is the work of the talented @CheyenneWright, who colours Goblins, Girl Genius and creates all manner of awesome things. I have no idea how he does his magic.
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Re: Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

Post by Glemp » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:48 pm

As a guess, Cheyenne created a texture to use in his drawing software that replicates the same scale over and over again, so all he has to do is align them with the way the tail's pointing and adjust the size in line with how far away it is.

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Re: Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

Post by Krulle » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:50 am

I would guess so too.
Explains the regularity of the scales, but still makes it all be drawn in astonishing details.

And makes him indispensible, as Ellipsis would have to find out how to do it herself if she decides to stop the cooperation with Cheyenne for whatever reason, and her not wanting to go to less details.
So far, the comic has increased in details a lot.
Which does make drawing slower and slower...

Good that GitP (Order of the Stick) did not fall for that trap.
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Re: Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

Post by Glemp » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:05 am

Krulle wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:50 am
I would guess so too.
Explains the regularity of the scales, but still makes it all be drawn in astonishing details.

And makes him indispensible, as Ellipsis would have to find out how to do it herself if she decides to stop the cooperation with Cheyenne for whatever reason, and her not wanting to go to less details.
So far, the comic has increased in details a lot.
Which does make drawing slower and slower...

Good that GitP (Order of the Stick) did not fall for that trap.
You kidding? OOTS has become more and more detailed over time, it's just more subtle. For example, starting in the previous book (Utterly Dwarfed), All the characters have their arms and legs coloured instead of being simple sticks.

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Re: Dec 29th, 2019 - CLONK

Post by Krulle » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:22 am

Okay, but compared to the amount of detail and shading quality improvement in Goblins, OotS has not improved much.

Also, I assume you're boldly pointing this out, as OotS is a prime example of luring readers by story, and not b quality of artwork.

;)
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