July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by TheOneThatGotAway » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:31 am

Yeah, i'm with the "Ears is out of character"-camp here. First he doesn't want to attack the paper dragon, but when that paper dragon seems to bring them to someone in need, he starts doubting?

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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Wolfie » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:59 am

He's not acting out of character. He's thinking about his group and with logic. Kin didn't exactly explain *why* or *how* she's stuck in that room. If she can slip a piece of paper through that obviously large crack in the wall, why not just yell or talk to them? We know why, but they don't. Think about from the GAP's perspective. They're running from the biggest Baddie in the land, just lost their Chief, just had a friend become a Teller while absorbing more past Tellers than any goblin in remembered history, and they're trying to make it back to the warcamp like now. They keep getting distracted with other problems, like Forgath and Minmax.

They tolerate Minmax, but don't like him, with the exception of Fumbles. They're going to be skeptical when it comes to things regarding him.

So, "Kin" sends a paper dragon they've never seen before to lead them back to a crack in the wall where she sends them tiny notes instead of talking. She "forgets" to introduce herself at first in the note and hasn't said anything to anyone else to prove her own identity and she's focusing on Minmax. Plus she has information that isn't common knowledge about something that literally just happened.
It feels like a trap and Ears is responding to it that way.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by thinkslogically » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:30 am

I agree with Wolfie on this one. Also, Big Ears has JUST been tricked into breaking the Axe of Prissan. It's completely understandable that he would be doubting his own judgement at this point, and being SUPER wary of taking anything in this dungeon on face value right now. If the last enemy he faced wasn't actually an enemy, why should an apparent friend really be a friend?

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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Generic » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:35 am

Or some conflict needed to happen and Ears happened to be close by to deliver a line that needed to be said.

One would think he would double down on his Paladin-ness once he declared that he was going down to hell and set everything straight using said paladin-ness.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by BuildsLegos » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:23 am

You keep thinking that paladins need to be gullible to deceit, just in case the damsel-in-distress is legit. Now more than ever that demons are strolling around because they're about to own the place, Big Ears needs to be vigilant on exactly the quest of making that not happen, and falling for potential demonic trickery is unwise. A proper paladin is all about overcoming lies wherever they rear their ugly head; if that means casualties like Kin, then the salvation of the entire realm is going to be worth it. After all, it's not like he's going to stop Min"Killed-My-Best-Friend"max on an apparent suicide run. Minmax is only useful, but not wanted to 3/4 of the goblins.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Generic » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:37 am

And there is where he is inconsistent. He looked straight through the 4th wall and told us what he was all about. That happened. Now this is happening.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Wolfie » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:55 am

I think the part you're forgetting is that Kore is also a Paladin, despite what we perceive as complete wrong doing on his part that should have lost him his status a long, long time ago. He still has his powers. Also, Ears is *most likely* a paladin of Maglubiyet, who is neutral evil aligned. I'm pretty sure that a little wavering and doubt on the part of Ears isn't going to drop his status.

Leaving a burning orphanage full of children alone would lose him his paladinhood, but not doubting that someone talking to them through notes is an acquaintance he once knew that was then captured by Dellyn on their way out of Brassmoon.

I can almost bet you that when he finds out it really is Kin, he'll be remorseful for his doubt. Right now? He's allowed to not believe.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Morgaln » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:14 am

BuildsLegos wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:23 am You keep thinking that paladins need to be gullible to deceit, just in case the damsel-in-distress is legit. Now more than ever that demons are strolling around because they're about to own the place, Big Ears needs to be vigilant on exactly the quest of making that not happen, and falling for potential demonic trickery is unwise. A proper paladin is all about overcoming lies wherever they rear their ugly head; if that means casualties like Kin, then the salvation of the entire realm is going to be worth it. After all, it's not like he's going to stop Min"Killed-My-Best-Friend"max on an apparent suicide run. Minmax is only useful, but not wanted to 3/4 of the goblins.
(emphasis mine)

There's a guy ahead of you in that alley you're walking down with those sentiments, especially the bolded part. His name is Kore, a real swell fellow. Unless you're fallible, then he's your worst nightmare. :P

But then, interpreting what being a paladin means is something people have been fighting and disagreeing over for decades. My personal take is like this: leaving someone to die because it might be a trap is a no-go for a paladin. If someone might need help, a paladin has to try and aid them, even if they suspect a trap. They can't be sure it isn't a genuine plea. That doesn't mean they should walk blindly into just any trap. Taking the necessary precautions to protect yourself from danger is certainly appropriate, as is suspecting treachery and deceit. But if they don't know whether someone in need is genuine or not, a paladin should always treat it as true until proven otherwise.

That said, so far we don't know if Ears wants to try and help Kin or not. He suspects a trap, but it is not clear if he is in favor of ignoring the request for help or if he just wants to warn the group of a possible danger ahead.
Wolfie wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:55 am I think the part you're forgetting is that Kore is also a Paladin, despite what we perceive as complete wrong doing on his part that should have lost him his status a long, long time ago. He still has his powers. Also, Ears is *most likely* a paladin of Maglubiyet, who is neutral evil aligned. I'm pretty sure that a little wavering and doubt on the part of Ears isn't going to drop his status.

Leaving a burning orphanage full of children alone would lose him his paladinhood, but not doubting that someone talking to them through notes is an acquaintance he once knew that was then captured by Dellyn on their way out of Brassmoon.

I can almost bet you that when he finds out it really is Kin, he'll be remorseful for his doubt. Right now? He's allowed to not believe.
Paladins in 3rd edition don't get their paladin status from gods. They are never paladins of a specific god. They follow the forces of Good and Law and draw their powers directly from them. Even if they were, following a god that is neither lawful nor evil would be completely out of the question for a paladin. They can't follow a god whose ethics completely clash with their own, and neither would that god grant them any powers or spells, considering the paladin is opposing everything that god stands for.

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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Wolfie » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:49 am

Morgaln wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:14 am
Wolfie wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:55 am I think the part you're forgetting is that Kore is also a Paladin, despite what we perceive as complete wrong doing on his part that should have lost him his status a long, long time ago. He still has his powers. Also, Ears is *most likely* a paladin of Maglubiyet, who is neutral evil aligned. I'm pretty sure that a little wavering and doubt on the part of Ears isn't going to drop his status.

Leaving a burning orphanage full of children alone would lose him his paladinhood, but not doubting that someone talking to them through notes is an acquaintance he once knew that was then captured by Dellyn on their way out of Brassmoon.

I can almost bet you that when he finds out it really is Kin, he'll be remorseful for his doubt. Right now? He's allowed to not believe.
Paladins in 3rd edition don't get their paladin status from gods. They are never paladins of a specific god. They follow the forces of Good and Law and draw their powers directly from them. Even if they were, following a god that is neither lawful nor evil would be completely out of the question for a paladin. They can't follow a god whose ethics completely clash with their own, and neither would that god grant them any powers or spells, considering the paladin is opposing everything that god stands for.
I know that :paranoia: :lol: I forgot in my rush to write down my thoughts that little tidbit. My apologies.

Still the comparison to Kore is apt and his fleeting doubts are not enough to lose his paladin abilities. If it were, there'd be no Paladins at all in the Realms.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Generic » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:37 am

Wolfie wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:55 am I think the part you're forgetting is that Kore is also a Paladin, despite what we perceive as complete wrong doing on his part that should have lost him his status a long, long time ago. He still has his powers. Also, Ears is *most likely* a paladin of Maglubiyet, who is neutral evil aligned. I'm pretty sure that a little wavering and doubt on the part of Ears isn't going to drop his status.

Leaving a burning orphanage full of children alone would lose him his paladinhood, but not doubting that someone talking to them through notes is an acquaintance he once knew that was then captured by Dellyn on their way out of Brassmoon.

I can almost bet you that when he finds out it really is Kin, he'll be remorseful for his doubt. Right now? He's allowed to not believe.
No. I am not forgetting about Kore. But Kore never said "you know what? A good paladin should never do X" and then a while later do X. Kore is consistent to his character. Ears is not right now.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Xavier78 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:23 pm

I don't even see how this is an in contention. If Ears walks away from this, he would lose his Paladinhood, period. Paladins are spelled out very well in the rulebooks. Also,
Wolfie wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:55 am Also, Ears is *most likely* a paladin of Maglubiyet, who is neutral evil aligned.
Yeah, no. That is an Anti-Paladin. Paladins can be Lawful Good ONLY. Unless this is a homebrew, which would be stupid because it strips away the very essence of a Paladin. Kore doesn't even count as it has been explained he is clearly cursed.

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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by BuildsLegos » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:54 pm

Morgaln wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:14 am
BuildsLegos wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:23 amA proper paladin is all about overcoming lies wherever they rear their ugly head; if that means casualties like Kin, then the salvation of the entire realm is going to be worth it. After all, it's not like he's going to stop Min"Killed-My-Best-Friend"max on an apparent suicide run. Minmax is only useful, but not wanted to 3/4 of the goblins.
(emphasis mine)

There's a guy ahead of you in that alley you're walking down with those sentiments, especially the bolded part. His name is Kore, a real swell fellow. Unless you're fallible, then he's your worst nightmare. :P

But then, interpreting what being a paladin means is something people have been fighting and disagreeing over for decades. My personal take is like this: leaving someone to die because it might be a trap is a no-go for a paladin. If someone might need help, a paladin has to try and aid them, even if they suspect a trap. They can't be sure it isn't a genuine plea. That doesn't mean they should walk blindly into just any trap. Taking the necessary precautions to protect yourself from danger is certainly appropriate, as is suspecting treachery and deceit. But if they don't know whether someone in need is genuine or not, a paladin should always treat it as true until proven otherwise.

That said, so far we don't know if Ears wants to try and help Kin or not. He suspects a trap, but it is not clear if he is in favor of ignoring the request for help or if he just wants to warn the group of a possible danger ahead.
There's an ocean of difference between "let your frenemy do this particular hero-work alone and maybe get himself killed over nothing" and "actively do the opposite of hero-work via a philosophy of impossible standard". I see this alley, but I'm not walking into it, I stay right where I stand! To be fair, your third paragraph is something we can agree on and I regret not saying it first. We should all fallow Thunt's mantra of read-and-find-out more often.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Generic » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:31 pm

BuildsLegos wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:54 pm
Morgaln wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:14 am
BuildsLegos wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:23 amA proper paladin is all about overcoming lies wherever they rear their ugly head; if that means casualties like Kin, then the salvation of the entire realm is going to be worth it. After all, it's not like he's going to stop Min"Killed-My-Best-Friend"max on an apparent suicide run. Minmax is only useful, but not wanted to 3/4 of the goblins.
(emphasis mine)

There's a guy ahead of you in that alley you're walking down with those sentiments, especially the bolded part. His name is Kore, a real swell fellow. Unless you're fallible, then he's your worst nightmare. :P

But then, interpreting what being a paladin means is something people have been fighting and disagreeing over for decades. My personal take is like this: leaving someone to die because it might be a trap is a no-go for a paladin. If someone might need help, a paladin has to try and aid them, even if they suspect a trap. They can't be sure it isn't a genuine plea. That doesn't mean they should walk blindly into just any trap. Taking the necessary precautions to protect yourself from danger is certainly appropriate, as is suspecting treachery and deceit. But if they don't know whether someone in need is genuine or not, a paladin should always treat it as true until proven otherwise.

That said, so far we don't know if Ears wants to try and help Kin or not. He suspects a trap, but it is not clear if he is in favor of ignoring the request for help or if he just wants to warn the group of a possible danger ahead.
There's an ocean of difference between "let your frenemy do this particular hero-work alone and maybe get himself killed over nothing" and "actively do the opposite of hero-work via a philosophy of impossible standard". I see this alley, but I'm not walking into it, I stay right where I stand! To be fair, your third paragraph is something we can agree on and I regret not saying it first. We should all fallow Thunt's mantra of read-and-find-out more often.
There is yet another thing. "Exclaim what hero work is in detail, and then do the opposite a while later." He already failed by his own standards, since he asked if the "need is genuine". Now I see only two options, Ears are out of character, or Ears is a hypocrite.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by RocketScientist » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:06 am

Wolfie wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:49 am
Morgaln wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:14 am Paladins in 3rd edition don't get their paladin status from gods. They are never paladins of a specific god. They follow the forces of Good and Law and draw their powers directly from them.
I know that :paranoia: :lol: I forgot in my rush to write down my thoughts that little tidbit. My apologies.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Davis8488 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:15 am

I've always found Ears to be an odd paladin.

For a pop culture example, I think Superman is pretty close to being a paladin. Batman isn't. Ears is Batman, or rather "Fleshripper the Goblin"

He later uses threat of murder to stop a bully.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Inspired » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:04 am

Regardless whether this costs paladinhood to Ears or not (and I highly doubt it), their concerns are quite valid:
  • How does Kin know about Forgath's demise when it has happened not too long ago, and there were no sign of her so far?
  • Why is she suddenly caring about MM when reportedly she just dumped him? (Assuming here dumping was a somewhat reasonable decision)
  • They know the dungeon can "read them" (remember the big place where their desires/etc showed up on the walls), is there any reason to believe this is not the same now?
  • The paper dragon literally showed up when they entered a room with a huge hourglass. Then these shenanigans happen (references to past but recent events). Can they be sure these two are not related?
I really hope though that this will turn out well for them and they end up rescuing Kin. The ranged caster would come handy, along with the intellect to solve puzzles.

Also, Kin could try to hurt herself so MM would "see" her. This might happen anyway soon if she somehow triggers the room she is in. MM suddenly collapsing could be a sign for the goblins of who's telling the truth here.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Wolfie » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:50 pm

Or the GAP would look at Minmax and think he's playing some weird human trick.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Generic » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:07 pm

*Sigh* Alright, I've said why I think Ears is out of character enough times. I'll leave it here.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by MinesData » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:53 am

The paladin code requires a paladin to "help those in need". However it also states "provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends". It's not unreasonable (and recommended to avoid being tricked) for a paladin to cautiously ascertain the identity and motives of those claiming to be in need. Right now, the embodiments of chaos and evil are being unleashed on the world. Deception is quite high on the the list of their known behaviours. It's quite reasonable for a paladin to be wary against being tricked into providing help to a demon (which would be insta-fall time).

A naive paladin is a paladin likely to end up falling at some point as it will be easy to get them to assist in an evil or chaotic act if they jump every time they hear "damsel in distress".

There is also no clear and obvious way for Big Ears to help Kin, the paladin code doesn't require running about like a headless chicken on the announcement of a damsel in distress. They are allowed to pause and consider how they could help. If a paladin is faced with a combination lock and one guess or the (non-evil and non-chaotic) princess dies, they don't fall if they guess incorrectly or refuse to guess and try and locate the combination.

Backtracking and randomly picking doors is unlikely to help anyone. It's possible (and not unlikely) that the rooms are linked and the way to help each other is to work together, despite the difficulty in communication. Backtracking could leave them all stuck in the same room.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "Fleshripper the Goblin" bit is a grey area, technically it's a lie (against the paladin code) but it is a benevolent lie, with no intent to benefit from the lie, with the result that innocents were protected (required by paladin code). Overall I'd say the act was in keeping with the spirit of the code as there wasn't an obvious alternative to protect the innocents (Ignoring the fact that innocents were in danger would be a breach of the code). I wouldn't make the paladin fall (I might give them a bit of a headache for a few days for the lie and let them feel guilty about it). Are paladins banned from moonlighting as actors? I think that would be a pretty harsh interpretation of the code.

As for punishing Takn for harming an innocent. That's required behaviour for a paladin! (walking away and leaving him to it would be explicitly breaking the code). The threat is enough to get him to stop which limited the need for violence to resolve the issue.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Overall, I'd say Big Ears was a paladin played pretty well. He's not a one dimensional "detect evil" "smite evil" paladin. He hasn't had his personality removed and replaced by the paladin code. To me he's a normal goblin who tries to do the right thing for the right reason who paladinhood found. I find that type of paladin much more interesting than the "Holier than Thou" take on paladins. Sometimes necessity has made him blur the code (a little) but it hasn't become a slippery slope for him and he only takes these actions through desperation to follow another aspect of the paladin code. He's trying to tread a very tough line and has never completely ignored the line to make life easy for himself. He realises he's unable to be perfect but it hasn't stopped him from trying to follow the code.

I'd say the biggest grey area was throwing the axe at Kore as that was pretty much directly against the code. It hinges on "Does throwing an axe at someone count as "attacking" when you expect the attack to pass harmlessly through that person?". Rereading that scene, it's not clear that Big Ears knew that the move was going to harm Kore but it gets very close to the line.

He helped someone commit a dishonourable act (but not an evil or chaotic one). If they had pre-planned the move together then it would have stepped over the line as dishonorable. Reminding the player that they got very close to the line and should be feeling guilty about it should suffice. The scene in which he shows remorse is appropriate for a paladin.

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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by redfeather » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:06 pm

thinkslogically wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:30 am I agree with Wolfie on this one. Also, Big Ears has JUST been tricked into breaking the Axe of Prissan. It's completely understandable that he would be doubting his own judgement at this point, and being SUPER wary of taking anything in this dungeon on face value right now. If the last enemy he faced wasn't actually an enemy, why should an apparent friend really be a friend?
This, I think, is the core of it (no puns about the Kursed One allowed).
Generic wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:54 pm
Ears {has} spoken a lot about of the unwavering standard of those who are good. Thus I expect him to follow those standards, and when he does not it is jarring. On top of it all, he is a magical goodie-two-shoes of righteousness.

Being fateful and constant sucks sometimes. You must go against better judgement when you are supposed to be a beacon of hope.

I don't think we can hold DnD paladins to the same standards we hold actual living people in this world.
I agree with all of this.

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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Davis8488 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:55 am

MinesData wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:53 am To me he's a normal goblin who tries to do the right thing for the right reason who paladinhood found. I find that type of paladin much more interesting than the "Holier than Thou" take on paladins. Sometimes necessity has made him blur the code (a little) but it hasn't become a slippery slope for him and he only takes these actions through desperation to follow another aspect of the paladin code. He's trying to tread a very tough line and has never completely ignored the line to make life easy for himself. He realises he's unable to be perfect but it hasn't stopped him from trying to follow the code.
I suppose you're right.

I would just expect a paladin to stand between Fumbles and Takn. The approach he took is just more what I would expect from a rogue. For chaotic good the ends justify the means; for Paladins the means should justify themselves.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by BuildsLegos » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

If he did that, Takn would probably just escalate things and I expect Big Ears would know as much. A paladin resolves conflicts as swiftly and peacefully as possible, and threatening aggressive yet weaker-than-yourself punks with violence is a great way to do it because you can't properly earn respect from such dullards, it needs to be forced out of them via fear.
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Re: July 23rd, 2018 - I Know, Minmax

Post by Generic » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:15 am

Davis8488 wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:55 am
MinesData wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:53 am To me he's a normal goblin who tries to do the right thing for the right reason who paladinhood found. I find that type of paladin much more interesting than the "Holier than Thou" take on paladins. Sometimes necessity has made him blur the code (a little) but it hasn't become a slippery slope for him and he only takes these actions through desperation to follow another aspect of the paladin code. He's trying to tread a very tough line and has never completely ignored the line to make life easy for himself. He realises he's unable to be perfect but it hasn't stopped him from trying to follow the code.
I suppose you're right.

I would just expect a paladin to stand between Fumbles and Takn. The approach he took is just more what I would expect from a rogue. For chaotic good the ends justify the means; for Paladins the means should justify themselves.
What he did was perfectly acceptable for a paladin I think. Paladins are violent. I don't think they are above threats of violence. What he said was roguish. He sounds like a mobster thug trying to cover his ass. "No mr Sheriff, I never said I would kill him, cross my heart I didnt. Asked him a simple question, is all."
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