29-01-2018: Who's There?

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Krulle » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:26 pm

@[color=red]Thunt[/color]_Goblins wrote:I love creating D&D traps that are super easy to avoid if you think about it a certain way. For instance, Kin was trying to get passed the 'fog room' when really, all she needs to do it go place a hand on one of the shapes.
But... She can't move from shape to shape, in some instances the distance seems too large.

Also, can't Parchment touch one of the shapes and later just fly to her? Or is that not how familiars/pets work?
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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Wolfie » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:41 pm

Good idea, Krulle. But can Parchment hover or is she tall enough to land on the floor and touch the wall?
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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by BuildsLegos » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:55 pm

Hjerne wrote:Look guys. Kore is not all that powerful. It's just like when Minmax and Forgath wiped out the goblin tribe when they were just first level. The only times we have seen him have it easy is when he was fighting low level monsters.

The GAP were first, maybe second level when they fought him. And all of them just ran away except Chief because they made the assumption that he would destroy them. Later Big Ears almost killed him with one critical hit. Forgath a 3rd level Cleric did serious damage to him. A THIRD level CLERIC, and he did it in hand to hand not with spells. Kore just won because he was a more experienced fighter. He uses his spells exclusively for protecting and healing himself.

Nothing Kore possesses has given any indication of being a magic item. His shield and autofire crossbows have both been shown to be purely mechanical in nature. Maybe, just maybe his hand axes are magic. So lets recap that.

Big Ears, second level, 1 magic item, does serious damage to Kore.
Forgath, third level, 1 magic item, does serious damage to Kore.

Now we come to Kin.
1: Level unknown but has to be higher than any of the others. She has made multiple runs through the maze specifically for the purpose of gaining levels and magic items.
2: She has multiple magic items and a fire breathing familiar.
3: She has spells. Perhaps even protection from normal missiles which is a completely useless spell in high level adventures but would basically make Kore's crossbows worthless. Even without that there are first and second level spells and even cantrips that can make normal missiles less effective.
4: She is fully rested and has all her spells. She wouldn't have brewed a pot of tea and popped in without that preparation. Kore meanwhile may or may not be the same. It depends on what he has had to face in the dungeon and how long he has rested.

By all the rules of adventuring this should be a cakewalk for Kin. At the very least even if she is severely wounded it should be Kore who retreats to regroup and heal himself.

Face it, Thunt won't kill Kin because to do so at this point would be the most Misogynistic thing possible to do. She is a female character who went through pure hell then found belief in herself and others and deliberately trained for months to years to gain levels and knowledge and magic items. Killing her at this point would basically mean that the only reason Thunt put her in was as a plot device shoved into the story to give Minmax a reason to go into some sort of super berserk mode and beat Kore. It would mean she was never a member of the party but was just like every other female in the run of the comic. Just an object used to move the men along in their story line.
Do you actually think they made it through Brassmoon City without leveling up? Besides, this authentic Paladin spell puts him at least level 14 or higher. You can't use Big Ears' rope-trick to gauge anyone's level, as that magic-abusing loophole subverts the prospect of health; instead of being injured, Kore was being deprived a vital resource.

Which magic item of Forgath's are you counting, the +2 strength ring, the Kinslayer, the indestructible beard, the Hammace, or the fact that he reached level 4 mid-battle? Because with all that going for him, he was nearly chopped into thirds and could only manage to impale Kore through the hand for his troubles.

None of us are suggesting Kin will die here for sure, but there's no way Kore won't at least give her a good scare.
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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Hjerne » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:23 pm

BuildsLegos wrote:Do you actually think they made it through Brassmoon City without leveling up? Besides, this authentic Paladin spell puts him at least level 14 or higher. You can't use Big Ears' rope-trick to gauge anyone's level, as that magic-abusing loophole subverts the prospect of health; instead of being injured, Kore was being deprived a vital resource.

Which magic item of Forgath's are you counting, the +2 strength ring, the Kinslayer, the indestructible beard, the Hammace, or the fact that he reached level 4 mid-battle? Because with all that going for him, he was nearly chopped into thirds and could only manage to impale Kore through the hand for his troubles.

None of us are suggesting Kin will die here for sure, but there's no way Kore won't at least give her a good scare.
I'm not sure why you think the page you linked means he has to be level 14. Lay on hands is available to Paladins at level 2. It's an innate ability. Now he does have to be at least level 9 because he used remove paralysis and he wouldn't get that spell until level 9.
I will admit that I forgot Forgath had all those magic items but it still means that Kore is not that powerful. One of Thunt's latest tweets is that he kept a record of all the damage that Forgath dealt to Kore because it was extensive. Yet people in twitter and here were reacting as if Kin being slaughtered in battle against him is a forgone conclusion. When I saw who was coming my first reaction wasn't "NOOOOOOOOOOO" but rather Kore is going to find out what it's like to fight somebody his level.

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by thinkslogically » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:29 pm

She will at least be able to escape him if she needs to I think, but I suspect we haven't seen everything that Kore can do either.

I'm just hoping that Kin is smart enough to figure out what Kore's deal is so she can tell us!

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Liquidmark » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:37 pm

Hjerne wrote:
BuildsLegos wrote:Do you actually think they made it through Brassmoon City without leveling up? Besides, this authentic Paladin spell puts him at least level 14 or higher. You can't use Big Ears' rope-trick to gauge anyone's level, as that magic-abusing loophole subverts the prospect of health; instead of being injured, Kore was being deprived a vital resource.

Which magic item of Forgath's are you counting, the +2 strength ring, the Kinslayer, the indestructible beard, the Hammace, or the fact that he reached level 4 mid-battle? Because with all that going for him, he was nearly chopped into thirds and could only manage to impale Kore through the hand for his troubles.

None of us are suggesting Kin will die here for sure, but there's no way Kore won't at least give her a good scare.
I'm not sure why you think the page you linked means he has to be level 14. Lay on hands is available to Paladins at level 2. It's an innate ability. Now he does have to be at least level 9 because he used remove paralysis and he wouldn't get that spell until level 9.
I will admit that I forgot Forgath had all those magic items but it still means that Kore is not that powerful. One of Thunt's latest tweets is that he kept a record of all the damage that Forgath dealt to Kore because it was extensive. Yet people in twitter and here were reacting as if Kin being slaughtered in battle against him is a forgone conclusion. When I saw who was coming my first reaction wasn't "NOOOOOOOOOOO" but rather Kore is going to find out what it's like to fight somebody his level.
I think kin might stomp kore initially in a fight. Kore seems to be sort of a juggernaut type of character that just keeps coming but looking at her gear, she probably got a lot of levels from the maze of many. Just as the type of monster is important in general, IÔÇÖd think that she wouldnÔÇÖt be a pushover under normal circumstances. I mean, weÔÇÖve all seen her fight and she really wasnÔÇÖt a slouch

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Krulle » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:00 am

[b]Hjerne[/b][s]BuildsLegos[/s] wrote: One of Thunt's latest tweets is that he kept a record of all the damage that Forgath dealt to Kore because it was extensive. Yet people in twitter and here were reacting as if Kin being slaughtered in battle against him is a forgone conclusion. When I saw who was coming my first reaction wasn't "NOOOOOOOOOOO" but rather Kore is going to find out what it's like to fight somebody his level.
You mean this tweet:
@[color=red]Thunt[/color]_Goblins wrote:Drawing Kore for the upcoming page. This is the reference sheet I built, to keep track of all of his damage. Forgath really beat the crap out of him, last time we saw him.
Image
Just so that everyone discussing ahs access to it.

[edits: sorry Hjerne and BuildsLegos]
Last edited by Krulle on Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Lurks_In_Shadows » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:57 am

Did everyone forget that Kin's tail was replaced with a nigh indestructible one while in the Maze? While her upper torso is still vulnerable, her tail is not and should be relatively proof against Kore's crossbows and maybe even his axes. She's not the typical squishy wizard.

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Liquidmark » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:06 am

Lurks_In_Shadows wrote:Did everyone forget that Kin's tail was replaced with a nigh indestructible one while in the Maze? While her upper torso is still vulnerable, her tail is not and should be relatively proof against Kore's crossbows and maybe even his axes. She's not the typical squishy wizard.
I literally mentioned her tail in my earlier post. :lol:

Yeah, KoreÔÇÖs weapons shouldnÔÇÖt be capable of harming her. Maybe he can do something if he has a shell or potion or something that can disrupt the energy that her tail is made of.

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Wolfie » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:18 am

Hjerne wrote:
I'm not sure why you think the page you linked means he has to be level 14. Lay on hands is available to Paladins at level 2. It's an innate ability. Now he does have to be at least level 9 because he used remove paralysis and he wouldn't get that spell until level 9.
I'm pretty sure he meant this page: Holy Sword Jan 4, 2011
Going by this page for the Paladin Spells Per Day and this one for the Spell Level (4), Kore would have to be at least a level 15, using 3.0 rules.
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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by JustRight » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:37 am

It's an arena room -- a contest to convert the most symbols to your IME. Whoever has more symbols converted when time is up wins?
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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Krulle » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:38 am

Yes. Because the loser left the platform, so that the winner can convert them all to his colour.
Then s/he gets her/his price: a vansihing trick.

edit: spoiler: a tweet with a sketch of the upcoming page (click here for the spoiler)
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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by BuildsLegos » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:21 am

Krulle, you really should fix that quote so you're not putting Hjerne's words in my mouth.
Hjerne wrote:
BuildsLegos wrote:Do you actually think they made it through Brassmoon City without leveling up? Besides, this authentic Paladin spell puts him at least level 14 or higher. You can't use Big Ears' rope-trick to gauge anyone's level, as that magic-abusing loophole subverts the prospect of health; instead of being injured, Kore was being deprived a vital resource.

Which magic item of Forgath's are you counting, the +2 strength ring, the Kinslayer, the indestructible beard, the Hammace, or the fact that he reached level 4 mid-battle? Because with all that going for him, he was nearly chopped into thirds and could only manage to impale Kore through the hand for his troubles.

None of us are suggesting Kin will die here for sure, but there's no way Kore won't at least give her a good scare.
I'm not sure why you think the page you linked means he has to be level 14. Lay on hands is available to Paladins at level 2. It's an innate ability. Now he does have to be at least level 9 because he used remove paralysis and he wouldn't get that spell until level 9.
I will admit that I forgot Forgath had all those magic items but it still means that Kore is not that powerful. One of Thunt's latest tweets is that he kept a record of all the damage that Forgath dealt to Kore because it was extensive. Yet people in twitter and here were reacting as if Kin being slaughtered in battle against him is a forgone conclusion. When I saw who was coming my first reaction wasn't "NOOOOOOOOOOO" but rather Kore is going to find out what it's like to fight somebody his level.
I coulda swore when Kore healed Chief, everyone was saying "Lay on Hands" had to be Level 14, but Wolfie suggests I must be mis-remembering that time. I, too, have celebrated Forgath's efforts sticking; but the part that actually matters was inevitably reversed while we weren't looking. Kore has healing magic, and the fact that his armor has been through the ringer will reduce its armor class if we're lucky.

Regardless of the spells he's using or quality of armor, it's baffling that you're ignoring the simple prospect that after the body-count and legend he's built up, it would be laughable to expect anything less than Level 10 of him.
Last edited by BuildsLegos on Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Wolfie » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:23 am

What remains to be seen is how powerful Kin is now. I'm hoping she's got a few tricks up her sleeve.
"This is my therapy dragon, she's for my panic attacks. I attack, everyone panics." (Quote found on http://outofcontextdnd.tumblr.com/)

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Morgaln » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:51 am

Unfortunately, powers used in the comic cannot be used to determine a character's level. Big Ears used Remove Disease in Brassmoon, at a time when he was provably 3rd level. Remove Disease is a 6th level paladin ability, which Big Ears shouldn't have access to if going by the game rules. Therefore, characters will have powers as the plot demands, regardless of their level.

But if we go by game rules and assume Kor is indeed level 15, Kin's level is obviously the major factor. The second most important factor would be her rank in the Concentration skill, which allows her to avoid Attacks of Opportunity and/or finish her spell even if she doesn't avoid one. Of course Kore is a problematic enemy for her either way. Paladins get bonuses to all saving throws, so any spell requiring one will be less likely to affect him. As both a dwarf and a paladin, Kore is also likely to have a high amount of hit points, so he won't go down from just one or two damaging spells. And once he has closed in on her, the amount of damage he can dish out will quickly spell her end.

Then again, going purely by the rules, Forgath shouldn't have been able to hold out as long as he did against Kore. So I think we can expect the encounter to play out in favor of story, not numbers.

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Hjerne » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:56 pm

BuildsLegos wrote:Krulle, you really should fix that quote so you're not putting Hjerne's words in my mouth.
Hjerne wrote:
BuildsLegos wrote:Do you actually think they made it through Brassmoon City without leveling up? Besides, this authentic Paladin spell puts him at least level 14 or higher. You can't use Big Ears' rope-trick to gauge anyone's level, as that magic-abusing loophole subverts the prospect of health; instead of being injured, Kore was being deprived a vital resource.

Which magic item of Forgath's are you counting, the +2 strength ring, the Kinslayer, the indestructible beard, the Hammace, or the fact that he reached level 4 mid-battle? Because with all that going for him, he was nearly chopped into thirds and could only manage to impale Kore through the hand for his troubles.

None of us are suggesting Kin will die here for sure, but there's no way Kore won't at least give her a good scare.
I'm not sure why you think the page you linked means he has to be level 14. Lay on hands is available to Paladins at level 2. It's an innate ability. Now he does have to be at least level 9 because he used remove paralysis and he wouldn't get that spell until level 9.
I will admit that I forgot Forgath had all those magic items but it still means that Kore is not that powerful. One of Thunt's latest tweets is that he kept a record of all the damage that Forgath dealt to Kore because it was extensive. Yet people in twitter and here were reacting as if Kin being slaughtered in battle against him is a forgone conclusion. When I saw who was coming my first reaction wasn't "NOOOOOOOOOOO" but rather Kore is going to find out what it's like to fight somebody his level.
I coulda swore when Kore healed Chief, everyone was saying "Lay on Hands" had to be Level 14, but Wolfie suggests I must be mis-remembering that time. I, too, have celebrated Forgath's efforts sticking; but the part that actually matters was inevitably reversed while we weren't looking. Kore has healing magic, and the fact that his armor has been through the ringer will reduce its armor class if we're lucky.

Regardless of the spells he's using or quality of armor, it's baffling that you're ignoring the simple prospect that after the body-count and legend he's built up, it would be laughable to expect anything less than Level 10 of him.
Primarily because the only creatures we have ever seen him killing with the exception of the GAP and Forgath have all been single or even half hit dice monsters and non combatant npcs. Most if not all of the victims in his IME are goblins or children. If you are a level 7 adventurer and you spend 500 years wandering through the forests killing small groups of goblins, kobalds and orks you may build up quite a legend among them but you won't make any progress towards level 8. That's how he has struck me since his first appearance. A bully who instead of using his conviction and chosen path to eliminate real evil instead focuses solely on cannon fodder.

Actually he seems most like a Chinese gold farmer in an MMO. Are goblin ears good for crafting a popular potion?

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by BuildsLegos » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:58 pm

Hm, I figured the ogre with the crossbow was a medium-level threat just by his size, but now I'm starting to realize your assessment that Kore is more neighborhood's dogs worth of barking than bite might be onto something. After all, I always compare him to a Terminator, but their primary targets are an untrained woman and child respectively. I was expecting that Kin would for sure escape with her life to be indication enough of how far she's gotten, but now I'm hedging my bets she'll achieve a non-lethal victory even without letting Kore dominate the symbols. Granted, that increases her chances of getting hurt in the process; but what good is a tail like that if she isn't going to curl up like a rattlesnake?
Last edited by BuildsLegos on Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by RocketScientist » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:09 pm

Morgaln wrote:Unfortunately, powers used in the comic cannot be used to determine a character's level. Big Ears used Remove Disease in Brassmoon, at a time when he was provably 3rd level. Remove Disease is a 6th level paladin ability, which Big Ears shouldn't have access to if going by the game rules. Therefore, characters will have powers as the plot demands, regardless of their level.
IIRC, this was because of a difference between 3.0 and 3.5 rules. The comic uses 3.0.

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by thinkslogically » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:57 pm

Unless Kore only targets low-level monsters, I can't believe that Forgath is the first to give him a run for his money. Either he's NEVER been defeated*, or he just isn't the type to stay dead.

*Which would be awfully convenient given he's one of the greyhill paladins (he is, right?) and how hurt we've seen him get in the space of like one in-game day

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Silfar » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:46 am

My first thought? "RUN!"

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Typhlosaurus » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:32 am

On Kore's level, in the last comic Kin mentions that the "the higher my level the more pronounced my IME appears". Not precisely sure what she meant by pronounced, but I don't think we have seen any character with a more extensive, dramatic or intricate IME than Kore (but my memory is faulty, especially over the years since I last re-read the archive - correct me at will).

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Morgaln » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:32 am

RocketScientist wrote:
Morgaln wrote:Unfortunately, powers used in the comic cannot be used to determine a character's level. Big Ears used Remove Disease in Brassmoon, at a time when he was provably 3rd level. Remove Disease is a 6th level paladin ability, which Big Ears shouldn't have access to if going by the game rules. Therefore, characters will have powers as the plot demands, regardless of their level.
IIRC, this was because of a difference between 3.0 and 3.5 rules. The comic uses 3.0.
Took me a while to confirm this but you are right. This is indeed one of the changes between 3.0 and 3.5. In that light, I have to correct myself: we can use powers to take a guess at levels.

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by BuildsLegos » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:56 am

Typhlosaurus wrote:On Kore's level, in the last comic Kin mentions that the "the higher my level the more pronounced my IME appears". Not precisely sure what she meant by pronounced, but I don't think we have seen any character with a more extensive, dramatic or intricate IME than Kore (but my memory is faulty, especially over the years since I last re-read the archive - correct me at will).
Going by Big Ears' brick wall IME, I'd say Kin is at least level 6 or 7. At 4, there's a basic outline of shapes that Big Ears shows when he uses Cure Disease. Maybe at Level 5, they go from wire-frame to solid, then have basic details on those surfaces at Level 6. I think the letters are going to link together into "KEN" when she next levels up, whatever level that may be.
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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by RocketScientist » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:46 pm

Morgaln wrote:
RocketScientist wrote:
Morgaln wrote:Unfortunately, powers used in the comic cannot be used to determine a character's level. Big Ears used Remove Disease in Brassmoon, at a time when he was provably 3rd level. Remove Disease is a 6th level paladin ability, which Big Ears shouldn't have access to if going by the game rules. Therefore, characters will have powers as the plot demands, regardless of their level.
IIRC, this was because of a difference between 3.0 and 3.5 rules. The comic uses 3.0.
Took me a while to confirm this but you are right. This is indeed one of the changes between 3.0 and 3.5. In that light, I have to correct myself: we can use powers to take a guess at levels.
Thanks for checking to make sure. I wasn't positive. :)

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Re: 29-01-2018: Who's There?

Post by Liquidmark » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:19 pm

BuildsLegos wrote:
Typhlosaurus wrote:On Kore's level, in the last comic Kin mentions that the "the higher my level the more pronounced my IME appears". Not precisely sure what she meant by pronounced, but I don't think we have seen any character with a more extensive, dramatic or intricate IME than Kore (but my memory is faulty, especially over the years since I last re-read the archive - correct me at will).
Going by Big Ears' brick wall IME, I'd say Kin is at least level 6 or 7. At 4, there's a basic outline of shapes that Big Ears shows when he uses Cure Disease. Maybe at Level 5, they go from wire-frame to solid, then have basic details on those surfaces at Level 6. I think the letters are going to link together into "KEN" when she next levels up, whatever level that may be.
If she is level 4 or 5, then Kore will probably murder her considering sheÔÇÖs unawares. I donÔÇÖt know if her being a Yang-Ti will help unless she has levels as a monster and they stack with her adventurer levels somehow

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