Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Discuss the comic here!
User avatar
BuildsLegos
Converses Frequently
Posts: 711
UStream Username: BuildsLegos
Location: So rorery in OKC

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by BuildsLegos » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:26 pm

Xavier78 wrote:So it's erased from existence, except when it's not? Paradox? This doesn't make sense to me.
I won't argue that you might have a point here, but at least it's consistent with what's already established.

The cake might have meant something if the mice stuck around to be eaten.
"I miss good ol' Jar Jar."
— aurilee

miados
Of Few Words
Posts: 66

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by miados » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:39 pm

I'm dumb. When i realized when the e k and n were for a second i thought that the N was a Z...... sigh. also took me a good five minutes to realize what e k n was. for some reason my mind started on pokemon with ekans

User avatar
Davis8488
Enjoys Chitchat
Posts: 261
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Davis8488 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:34 pm

Faulkner wrote, "Memory believes before knowing remembers, believes longer than recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."

A fancy way of saying that the forgotten can impact the psyche.

I think it could be argued that since the portion of Forgath's beard that was obliviated was later restored by the gears, then it did not truly cease to have ever existed, but merely all memory of and evidence for it ceased to exist. If this is true, then the KEN necklace also was not removed from the past, but merely from current existence and recollection.
CarvesAPumpkin, Level 3 Defender in Capture the Flag

If anything I say offends you I am sorry. It is likely late and I am tired, or I'm upset and I am not thinking straight, and though I sincerely wish I could, I can't express myself in such a way that helps you be less of a crybaby.
► Show Spoiler

User avatar
BuildsLegos
Converses Frequently
Posts: 711
UStream Username: BuildsLegos
Location: So rorery in OKC

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by BuildsLegos » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:45 pm

Given how Thunt has the story planned out in advanced, if oblivion holes actually erased past existence, we would have seen M&F acting as though they have certain items like boots and facial hair to be braided when they don't, and treating this behavior as normal. But we saw these things, because they existed just as a misspelled word or wrong answer on paper, except oblivion holes care not about wrong vs. right.
"I miss good ol' Jar Jar."
— aurilee

User avatar
Krulle
Transcribes Goblins
Posts: 6927
Location: banned
Contact:

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Krulle » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:34 am

Indeed.
I find this EKN also a bit.... unlogical. The necklace never existed, how can the I.M.E. therefore reflect the necklace.

But Minmax will be happy to see her I.M.E., and even Forgath would be able to explain to her what it means.
Minmax might be less able to do so, as he cannot read. And would therefore be unable to explain the spelling error, if he even recognizes the letter.

User avatar
Xavier78
Pipes Up Sometimes
Posts: 177

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Xavier78 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:58 am

Krulle wrote:Indeed.
I find this EKN also a bit.... unlogical. The necklace never existed, how can the I.M.E. therefore reflect the necklace.

But Minmax will be happy to see her I.M.E., and even Forgath would be able to explain to her what it means.
Minmax might be less able to do so, as he cannot read. And would therefore be unable to explain the spelling error, if he even recognizes the letter.
How? They forgot about the necklace as well.

User avatar
Krulle
Transcribes Goblins
Posts: 6927
Location: banned
Contact:

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Krulle » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:20 am

That makes it all even more unlogical.
How can the amulet coins then be part of anything????

But, for the sake of the story, I tend to take such matters as they are.
I want the story to continue, and I'll see later if an explanation for this has been given or not.

But then, Love/Trueseeing conquers everything.

User avatar
Glemp
Poorly Locked Patron
Poorly Locked Patron
Posts: 969

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Glemp » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:05 am

Xavier78 wrote:So it's erased from existence, except when it's not? Paradox? This doesn't make sense to me.
It's like this. The Oblivion Holes in the MAze of many were not, as Psimax admitted, true oblivion - they had flaws. They could erase two things - the object's physical form, and the memories of the object. But they couldn't re-write history so the object never existed, as true oblivion would. When the necklace was dropped in, Kin still had the trust in Minmax it gave her, but she couldn't remember why she trusted him. Similarly, if her tail had fallen in a Hole, Kin wouldn't remember ever having one but Scorpion-Kin would still be dead.

User avatar
ForgetsOldName
Is Heard Often
Posts: 300
UStream Username: TwoCoo
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by ForgetsOldName » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:19 am

Glemp wrote:
Xavier78 wrote:So it's erased from existence, except when it's not? Paradox? This doesn't make sense to me.
It's like this. The Oblivion Holes in the MAze of many were not, as Psimax admitted, true oblivion - they had flaws. They could erase two things - the object's physical form, and the memories of the object. But they couldn't re-write history so the object never existed, as true oblivion would. When the necklace was dropped in, Kin still had the trust in Minmax it gave her, but she couldn't remember why she trusted him. Similarly, if her tail had fallen in a Hole, Kin wouldn't remember ever having one but Scorpion-Kin would still be dead.
But there's an important difference in your reasoning. Scorpion Kin could still be dead, but there are many ways she could have been killed. Indeed, Kin might remember having killed her some other way, and it might even be that she had killed Scorpia that way.

Your theory has the hole deleting the object, deleting the memory of the object, but not, say, a note that says "Kin, you wrote this note just after you dropped a boot into one of the oblivion holes. You used the boot to kick a hole in the wall behind you. You'll want to check and see if the hole is still there, and also see if you can remember the incident." To my mind the boot "writes" the memory of the object into your brain cells in the same way it "writes" a boot print onto a wall.
The old name was Twocoo. The avatar is the scariest thing in Wizardry I, circa 1981.

User avatar
Wolfie
She Who Admins
She Who Admins
Posts: 3324
UStream Username: Wolfie213
Location: In a handbasket on a bus... and it's hot

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Wolfie » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:58 am

I think Glemp has a good point though. Kin trusts MinMax, as she states here. She is incredibly logical and, while she doesn't understand her connection to MM, she trusts enough in herself to find out what's going on or what happened. She may have already put two and two together that something happened with an oblivion hole.

The heart remembers what the brain forgets. Emotions are tied to memory and the oblivion holes can't erase everything the necklace was attached to. It's physical form is gone and thus Kin has the confusion over WHY she trusts a human, but the Birthday party still happened. Their conversations still happened. He still saved her and worked beside her. The absence of the necklace doesn't change those facts.

Logic will win out, if only because her curiosity over why she feels Minmax needs to be satisfied.

Also, I want a Parchment. :D
"This is my therapy dragon, she's for my panic attacks. I attack, everyone panics." (Quote found on http://outofcontextdnd.tumblr.com/)

"If I have a +2 strength sword and I stab you, you won't get a +2 strength, you get wounds" ~Sir Butcher

"How few there are who have courage enough to own their faults, or resolution enough to mend them." ~Benjamin Franklin

Crimson
Mumbles Incoherently
Posts: 12
UStream Username: Crimsonak

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Crimson » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:01 am

ForgetsOldName wrote: But there's an important difference in your reasoning. Scorpion Kin could still be dead, but there are many ways she could have been killed. Indeed, Kin might remember having killed her some other way, and it might even be that she had killed Scorpia that way.
I would suggest that it's important to note that you have no reason to conclude she might remember anything alternative at all. Forgath completely forgets that he even had a beard at all, he doesn't invent a reason why his beard is half-on, despite how strange it is. He knows he didn't cut it and he's aware when he got it back, but the fact remains he doesn't replace the absence of beard with a new reason. How could he? It, or anything about it has never existed to him or anyone else.

The same happens with Minmax's pants and shoes. Kin doesn't invent a reason for him having an extra shoe, or invent a reason that he's never had pants, she only understands that it's unusual. It would be incredibly difficult to invent a reason for something happening that you don't remember. It's sort of like, if you forget why you came into a room you could just invent a reason why you went there but why would you? When you have foggy gaps in your brain it isn't beneficial for you to fill it in with an alternative. Instead you just admit to yourself "I don't remember."

TL;DR here is even though you might be right about remembering "some other way" the evidence actually just points to a complete lack of any kind of understanding around any events involving whatever was obliterated. Just a vague thought of "That's how it's always been."

User avatar
Glemp
Poorly Locked Patron
Poorly Locked Patron
Posts: 969

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Glemp » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:06 am

Crimson wrote:
ForgetsOldName wrote: But there's an important difference in your reasoning. Scorpion Kin could still be dead, but there are many ways she could have been killed. Indeed, Kin might remember having killed her some other way, and it might even be that she had killed Scorpia that way.
I would suggest that it's important to note that you have no reason to conclude she might remember anything alternative at all. Forgath completely forgets that he even had a beard at all, he doesn't invent a reason why his beard is half-on, despite how strange it is. He knows he didn't cut it and he's aware when he got it back, but the fact remains he doesn't replace the absence of beard with a new reason. How could he? It, or anything about it has never existed to him or anyone else.

The same happens with Minmax's pants and shoes. Kin doesn't invent a reason for him having an extra shoe, or invent a reason that he's never had pants, she only understands that it's unusual. It would be incredibly difficult to invent a reason for something happening that you don't remember. It's sort of like, if you forget why you came into a room you could just invent a reason why you went there but why would you? When you have foggy gaps in your brain it isn't beneficial for you to fill it in with an alternative. Instead you just admit to yourself "I don't remember."

TL;DR here is even though you might be right about remembering "some other way" the evidence actually just points to a complete lack of any kind of understanding around any events involving whatever was obliterated. Just a vague thought of "That's how it's always been."
So we have precedent of people figuring out that something's been dropped in a Hole from the sudden memory gap. This is a small spark of hope, but a spark nonetheless.

User avatar
Rooks
Of Few Words
Posts: 88
Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Rooks » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:14 am

Wow... a lot of controversy over this comic. My take is that given it's all inner monologue, I find it perfectly reasonable. The idea of "name dropping" being strange doesn't seem strange at all to me. When I'm recalling events in my own inner monologue, I see pictures of what happened with all the people and things and I'm thinking of the emotions that came to me during that event. Thunt isn't going to draw a thought bubble with another picture in it. He's going to have a thought bubble with text that explains what Kin is recalling.

I'd also like to add a massive HOORAY for Thunt being back to drawing. I truly wish him nothing but great health and long life, and I hope that he can find a healthy balance in his life. This story has fully captivated me, and for very selfish reasons, I hope to be able to keep reading it. And obviously, on a human level, I want to wish longevity and happy lives for everyone.

User avatar
BuildsLegos
Converses Frequently
Posts: 711
UStream Username: BuildsLegos
Location: So rorery in OKC

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by BuildsLegos » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:35 am

Rooks wrote:...Thunt isn't going to draw a thought bubble with another picture in it...
Well, not anymore, it seems.
"I miss good ol' Jar Jar."
— aurilee

User avatar
Rooks
Of Few Words
Posts: 88
Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Rooks » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:02 pm

BuildsLegos wrote:
Rooks wrote:...Thunt isn't going to draw a thought bubble with another picture in it...
Well, not anymore, it seems.
Haha... well played sir. Well played. :lol:

User avatar
Guus
Floods your Ears
Posts: 2117
Location: Beneath sea level

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Guus » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:54 pm

I don't mind the amount of text, I think it fits with Kin. However, the way it is done seems a bit... robotic?
I'm more curious why it's important to explain the trap. Is this going to go wrong? And if so, wouldn't her falling into a simpler, but better hidden trap be better for story progression than explaining yet another convoluted trap that has a good chance of being explained and then rendered completely useless right afterwards?
Ah well, I used to like the dungeon explanations and the like. The glacial pacing of updates just makes them feel like they are in the way more than them adding anything. I want the story to develop, and these sidetracks make it take even longer. I guess it would've been better for me to have just waited a year and read the ten to twenty updates in one go :lol:
ForgetsOldName wrote: But there's an important difference in your reasoning. Scorpion Kin could still be dead, but there are many ways she could have been killed. Indeed, Kin might remember having killed her some other way, and it might even be that she had killed Scorpia that way.

Your theory has the hole deleting the object, deleting the memory of the object, but not, say, a note that says "Kin, you wrote this note just after you dropped a boot into one of the oblivion holes. You used the boot to kick a hole in the wall behind you. You'll want to check and see if the hole is still there, and also see if you can remember the incident." To my mind the boot "writes" the memory of the object into your brain cells in the same way it "writes" a boot print onto a wall.
No, she wouldn't remember a different way of killing her. She still would've killed her in the exact same manner, but she just wouldn't remember how she had done it, because for that she needs the memory of having a tail. The oblivion hole doesn't create new memories, it just erases ones that are related to that particular object (or body part, I guess). Kin would just be confused about how she killed the Scorpion Kin.
I feel smart, but I'm pretty sure I'm an idiot.

User avatar
GathersIngredients
Discussion Moderator
Posts: 4730

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by GathersIngredients » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:17 pm

Guus wrote:
ForgetsOldName wrote: But there's an important difference in your reasoning. Scorpion Kin could still be dead, but there are many ways she could have been killed. Indeed, Kin might remember having killed her some other way, and it might even be that she had killed Scorpia that way.

Your theory has the hole deleting the object, deleting the memory of the object, but not, say, a note that says "Kin, you wrote this note just after you dropped a boot into one of the oblivion holes. You used the boot to kick a hole in the wall behind you. You'll want to check and see if the hole is still there, and also see if you can remember the incident." To my mind the boot "writes" the memory of the object into your brain cells in the same way it "writes" a boot print onto a wall.
No, she wouldn't remember a different way of killing her. She still would've killed her in the exact same manner, but she just wouldn't remember how she had done it, because for that she needs the memory of having a tail. The oblivion hole doesn't create new memories, it just erases ones that are related to that particular object (or body part, I guess). Kin would just be confused about how she killed the Scorpion Kin.
I think so, too. And, because she doesn't know, she might try to find out, how she did it. She might or might not be successful in that attempt, but I can see her being very likely to TRY.

Just like - actually happening in the comic - she wants to know/find out more about her I.M.E., why it looks like that. With this, too, it's possible she will never find out, but the motivation is there. I know I would be curious in her place, as well. In both cases.



Wolfie wrote:
Matney X wrote:
Wolfie wrote:Kin is known for excessive dialogue and overthinking. It would be, IMO, strange if she didn't keep up a running monologue.
Inner monologing is one thing, but namedropping the Maze, Ruby, and Onyx was like a "Previously, on Goblins" before the episode actually starts. And there's nothing natural about how this inner monologue seems... do any of your inner monologues say "But I've long since given up..."

Beautiful page, as usual, but the exposition is super clunky.
You'd be surprised at what my inner monologues sound like. :paranoia: :lol:
Same here, I'm assuming. o:)
Krulle wrote:My bad memory allows me to enjoy positive news far more often!
Excited for the Isle of Starlight!
Hunters of Letrua: Loki "Boarstrangler" - Obsidian portal page
► Show Spoiler

User avatar
Krulle
Transcribes Goblins
Posts: 6927
Location: banned
Contact:

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Krulle » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:43 am

Guus wrote:I don't mind the amount of text, I think it fits with Kin. However, the way it is done seems a bit... robotic?
I'm more curious why it's important to explain the trap. Is this going to go wrong? And if so, wouldn't her falling into a simpler, but better hidden trap be better for story progression than explaining yet another convoluted trap that has a good chance of being explained and then rendered completely useless right afterwards?
There's the guess that the fog created by the room will touch the symbols and the symbols take the colour of the I.M.E. fog, thus activating the trap again while she is in the middle of the room. And through the fog she might not be able to see the symbols changing colour.
Guus wrote:[...]I guess it would've been better for me to have just waited a year and read the ten to twenty updates in one go :lol:
Next week update is already online [for Patreons].
So, come back Monday evening.
GobCom is still updating faster than Outsider, which had 10 pages in 2017.

User avatar
BuildsLegos
Converses Frequently
Posts: 711
UStream Username: BuildsLegos
Location: So rorery in OKC

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by BuildsLegos » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:49 am

Guus wrote:Ah well, I used to like the dungeon explanations and the like. The glacial pacing of updates just makes them feel like they are in the way more than them adding anything. I want the story to develop, and these sidetracks make it take even longer.
This isn't a detour, it's a shortcut. Besides, every encounter entails character growth anyway. Even if they were going out of their way, they'd have a reason in the first place and developments therein are the point of this comic.
"I miss good ol' Jar Jar."
— aurilee

User avatar
Shardstorm
Whispers Softly
Posts: 60

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by Shardstorm » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:12 pm

Guus wrote:I'm more curious why it's important to explain the trap. Is this going to go wrong? And if so, wouldn't her falling into a simpler, but better hidden trap be better for story progression than explaining yet another convoluted trap that has a good chance of being explained and then rendered completely useless right afterwards?
Pretty sure the explanation is at least partially to show Kin's capability now. She's experienced, and demonstrating it.
- ANZ based gamer and reader.

User avatar
ForgetsOldName
Is Heard Often
Posts: 300
UStream Username: TwoCoo
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: Jan 22 2018: E, K, N.

Post by ForgetsOldName » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:59 pm

I don't see any existential difference between Kin's (obliviated) tail crushing the cells of Scorpikin's neck and between the presence of Kin's tail inducing changes in her brain cells.
The old name was Twocoo. The avatar is the scariest thing in Wizardry I, circa 1981.

Post Reply