27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

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Hjerne
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by Hjerne » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:51 pm

WearsHats wrote:(some items of holding will kill you if you try to stay inside)
I think that's only if they are completely closed up because then you can suffocate but from the size of that hallway a single goblin could probably last at least a day even if the hole were blocked by a finger.

Personally I'd be more concerned with the green stuff growing in patches where the floor meets the walls. If I learned anything from D&D it's that if something looks like a mess that needs to be mopped up then odds are it will kill you if you touch it.

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Guus
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by Guus » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:02 pm

Hjerne wrote:I feel sorry for anybody who gets upset at Minmax and Fumbles screwing around. It means your D&D games must be as boring as all get out. If my character winds up unconscious, dead, or bleeding to death then the game doesn't suddenly become deadly serious for me.
Yes, because that's the only other way it could be played out, and besides that, playing your way is the only correct way. :tfacepalm:

One of the things about the comic is that the characters are in an extremely wide grey area between being players and being actual living creatures in a fantasy world that uses D&D as their set-up. Both ends of the spectrum are problematic: if it's a game it's very railroady and leaves little of the story up to free will. If it's an active world then the fact that their world is ending and a psychotic and insanely strong mass murderer on your heels would demand a more direct realization of the characters that something important is happening. So, to me, the answer is somewhere in the middle. They are PC's (if I remember correctly Hunt did say that the story is based on a or some campaigns he ran), but at the same time, they are active characters in the world. At some points in the story they are more the actual goblins, at other moments they are more the players playing the character. It's the only way as far as I can see how the behaviour of the goblins make sense, but others might be able to come up with a better explanation than I.

It mainly has to do with tonal shifts. In the Brassmoon arc, a joke was part of what was happening and didn't detour from the story (we're not jumping to our death here, but there, where there's a tree). Before that, in the orc cave, there wasn't as much of urgency, so joking around after a fight makes sense. In the MoM, there wasn't much of a sense of urgency because it's its own pocket dimension, leaving room for joking around. And even there, the jokes didn't really take away from the action happening. Now, however, a lot of the jokes being made are completely different from what is actually happening in the world, which is quite distracting. To some, that's not a problem. To others it is. Personally, I think a bit more recognition of what's happening by the characters would be well suited. It is kind of fixed with how I view the place of the characters in the world right now, but it still feels like a bit of a band-aid. It's kind of like "how am I supposed to feel for and empathize with the characters if they don't do it themselves", y'know?

Still, I think that when things pick up again that Hunt has something awesome to tell, which is why I stick around.
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Glemp
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by Glemp » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:11 am

WearsHats wrote:I really don't understand why you keep coming back, Xavier. Most of your posts seem to be about how the comic disappoints you and doesn't make sense and you disagree with the premise and you don't like discussing it except to complain. But whatever floats your boat, I guess.
I don't see a problem with that, most of my reactions to the comic lately have been critical because I'm a pessimistic person by nature. It's just this one in particular that I actually kind of like.
WearsHats wrote:What we learned is that you can go into the ring room (some items of holding will kill you if you try to stay inside) and you can hold it closed from the inside. The latter implies to me that you can open it from the inside.

And that's very important. Because they need a portal to Hell, they can't open one themselves, and I believe the closest one is a very narrow fissure, just big enough to fit a ring.
So...the GAP is going to climb inside the Ring and then have Forgath (a sort-of Golem) cast it into the Cracks of Doom Hell? Cool.

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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by Arrow » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:53 am

WearsHats wrote:Because they need a portal to Hell, they can't open one themselves, and I believe the closest one is a very narrow fissure, just big enough to fit a ring.
Oh, thats a creative idea!
But I doubt it.
Knowing Thunt's writing, if that was the case he would hint at it being a portal to hell long before of it being used.
Being a glowing red wound(?) on a demonic face is quite a far fetched portal to hell.

I was imagining the ring thrown to one of those pits to hell: http://www.goblinscomic.org/01302017-2/ which is explicitly hinted.


On a side note, has it really been 2014 when Kore's face was revealed ?!
How time flies...

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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by mustache_man » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:53 am

Guus wrote:
One of the things about the comic is that the characters are in an extremely wide grey area between being players and being actual living creatures in a fantasy world that uses D&D as their set-up. Both ends of the spectrum are problematic: if it's a game it's very railroady and leaves little of the story up to free will. If it's an active world then the fact that their world is ending and a psychotic and insanely strong mass murderer on your heels would demand a more direct realization of the characters that something important is happening. So, to me, the answer is somewhere in the middle. They are PC's (if I remember correctly Hunt did say that the story is based on a or some campaigns he ran), but at the same time, they are active characters in the world. At some points in the story they are more the actual goblins, at other moments they are more the players playing the character. It's the only way as far as I can see how the behaviour of the goblins make sense, but others might be able to come up with a better explanation than I.
I think this is one the main issues I have with the comic right now. There are times when they behave like players and times when they behave like real living creatures in the world. It makes it hard to empathize.
Guus wrote: It mainly has to do with tonal shifts. In the Brassmoon arc, a joke was part of what was happening and didn't detour from the story (we're not jumping to our death here, but there, where there's a tree). Before that, in the orc cave, there wasn't as much of urgency, so joking around after a fight makes sense. In the MoM, there wasn't much of a sense of urgency because it's its own pocket dimension, leaving room for joking around. And even there, the jokes didn't really take away from the action happening. Now, however, a lot of the jokes being made are completely different from what is actually happening in the world, which is quite distracting. To some, that's not a problem. To others it is. Personally, I think a bit more recognition of what's happening by the characters would be well suited. It is kind of fixed with how I view the place of the characters in the world right now, but it still feels like a bit of a band-aid. It's kind of like "how am I supposed to feel for and empathize with the characters if they don't do it themselves", y'know?
I agree. The jokes in the Brassmoon arc didnÔÇÖt hurt the pace and didnÔÇÖt take anything from the tension, because they werenÔÇÖt stopping everything to goof around. They made the jokes during the process of getting things done. In all the previous arcs, as far as I can remember, itÔÇÖs always been like that and the characters only ever stopped to goof around when they werenÔÇÖt doing anything important, so they could relax. Right now, they are in a dungeon because it was the only way to escape the unstoppable killing machine thatÔÇÖs pursuing them. If thatÔÇÖs not enough they kickstarted the end of the world, half of them got hurt to the point of near death (when they stopped to goof around) and one of them is turning into a full blown demon at an alarming rate (nobody seems to give a shit about that either, not even his father or the paladin). But by all means, letÔÇÖs all stop and relax.
If Kore shows up on the next update, I kind of hope he kills them all.

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RocketScientist
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by RocketScientist » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:03 am

I don't get it. If you just want the characters to die, then why keep reading?

I stopped watching The Walking Dead after the season premiere this year, because I felt like they'd gone over the top ridiculous, in the name of sticking to the source material. Suddenly I just didn't care what happened, and found myself not watching anymore. I don't have time for something I'm not enjoying. Is this not what other people do?

mustache_man
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by mustache_man » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:56 am

RocketScientist wrote:I don't get it. If you just want the characters to die, then why keep reading?
I'm fully aware you don't get it. And what I really want is to be able to empathize with the characters again. People don't come to the forums feeling frustrated simply because they don't like the comic, they come here and vent because they do (or did anyway) like the comic and now for whatever reason they are not enjoying it anymore, but would very much like to again. And yes, if it doesn't happen soon enough for me, I probably will stop reading the comic. If in the meantime "rocks fall and everybody dies", then at least I was here for the end. Also, it takes me about a minute to see a webcomic page and I don't stalk the forums everyday, unless there's some discussion I find interesting, so it's not like I am wasting copious amounts of time in this.

MrBogey
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by MrBogey » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:05 am

Prediction:

Toss the axe in the ring.
Set ring on Oblivious' hilt
Release Oblivious.
Go to Hell (or a path)
Toss ring in or retrieve axe from ring.

The time skipping aspect of the sword will allow for the party to have the time they need.

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Xavier78
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by Xavier78 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:12 am

mustache_man wrote:
RocketScientist wrote:I don't get it. If you just want the characters to die, then why keep reading?
I'm fully aware you don't get it. And what I really want is to be able to empathize with the characters again. People don't come to the forums feeling frustrated simply because they don't like the comic, they come here and vent because they do (or did anyway) like the comic and now for whatever reason they are not enjoying it anymore, but would very much like to again. And yes, if it doesn't happen soon enough for me, I probably will stop reading the comic. If in the meantime "rocks fall and everybody dies", then at least I was here for the end. Also, it takes me about a minute to see a webcomic page and I don't stalk the forums everyday, unless there's some discussion I find interesting, so it's not like I am wasting copious amounts of time in this.
That is pretty much it, which I kinda said but was tired and wasn't very articulate. Also, because I can. A webcomic forum doesn't have to be filled with fanboys who do nothing but suck up. I've been reading this comic long before most here. Definitely long before this "new" board or the old even had moderators. I rarely read or post on the forums then and rarely do now except when i feel like it. Criticism is a part of life in all fields. If Hunt, or anyone here, can't handle that than this forum shouldn't even be a thing, nor should those who can't take it even be reading the forums let alone modding them. That isn't an attack, just stating the obvious.

To simplify, This was my number 1 comic for years. I'm hoping it gets back to what it was, not the mess it currently is (in my opinion). If not, at least the train wrecks that happen here on a regular basis are entertaining. :shrug:

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RocketScientist
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by RocketScientist » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:12 am

Xavier78 wrote:[...] Also, because I can. A webcomic forum doesn't have to be filled with fanboys who do nothing but suck up. I've been reading this comic long before most here. Definitely long before this "new" board or the old even had moderators. I rarely read or post on the forums then and rarely do now except when i feel like it. Criticism is a part of life in all fields. If Hunt, or anyone here, can't handle that than this forum shouldn't even be a thing, nor should those who can't take it even be reading the forums let alone modding them. That isn't an attack, just stating the obvious.

To simplify, This was my number 1 comic for years. I'm hoping it gets back to what it was, not the mess it currently is (in my opinion). If not, at least the train wrecks that happen here on a regular basis are entertaining. :shrug:
What I'm reading here is "I'm not happy, and I don't think people should gather together to happily enjoy something without someone else killing their buzz and complaining about it. And anyone who disagrees should not be where I can find them." OK, then. I take antidepressants for that kind of attitude, but whatever. :shrug:

Morgaln
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by Morgaln » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:02 am

RocketScientist wrote:
Xavier78 wrote:[...] Also, because I can. A webcomic forum doesn't have to be filled with fanboys who do nothing but suck up. I've been reading this comic long before most here. Definitely long before this "new" board or the old even had moderators. I rarely read or post on the forums then and rarely do now except when i feel like it. Criticism is a part of life in all fields. If Hunt, or anyone here, can't handle that than this forum shouldn't even be a thing, nor should those who can't take it even be reading the forums let alone modding them. That isn't an attack, just stating the obvious.

To simplify, This was my number 1 comic for years. I'm hoping it gets back to what it was, not the mess it currently is (in my opinion). If not, at least the train wrecks that happen here on a regular basis are entertaining. :shrug:
What I'm reading here is "I'm not happy, and I don't think people should gather together to happily enjoy something without someone else killing their buzz and complaining about it. And anyone who disagrees should not be where I can find them." OK, then. I take antidepressants for that kind of attitude, but whatever. :shrug:
I read it as " A forum is for both positive and negative opinions. Those who would deny people with differing opinions the right to post said opinion are the ones who should go away."

:shrug: Different interpretations, I guess...

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RocketScientist
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by RocketScientist » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:58 am

If that's what he means, then he's demonstrably wrong, and decidedly out of luck. It's Thunt's forum, and he's including Thunt in the people he thinks should bow to his opinion on the purpose of forums, or go away. Which... that's not how anything works. You don't get to go into someone else's house, declare the purpose of houses and state that anybody who's there needs to either agree with you and not question your behavior or go away. Good luck with that attitude offline. :chuckle:

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Guus
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by Guus » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:35 am

Whelp, there goes the nuance out of the window.
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mustache_man
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by mustache_man » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:41 am

RocketScientist wrote:If that's what he means, then he's demonstrably wrong, and decidedly out of luck. It's Thunt's forum, and he's including Thunt in the people he thinks should bow to his opinion on the purpose of forums, or go away. Which... that's not how anything works. You don't get to go into someone else's house, declare the purpose of houses and state that anybody who's there needs to either agree with you and not question your behavior or go away. Good luck with that attitude offline. :chuckle:
LetÔÇÖs get some things straight.
1. It is certainly Hunt's forum. We can agree on that.

2. Nobody said he should somehow ÔÇ£bow downÔÇØ to anyoneÔÇÖs opinions. So, to be clear on the subject, he shouldnÔÇÖt. Definitely shouldnÔÇÖt. If he thinks the comic is great as it is and someone tells is itÔÇÖs a stinking piece of hobo turd, he should still believe itÔÇÖs good. On the other hand, if heÔÇÖs not happy with it, he shouldnÔÇÖt simply believe when others say itÔÇÖs the written word of god and should be held as such.

3. Despite being his forum, it is not really his house. That is a comparison I have seen tossed about here too many times and it always bothered me. It would a good comparison if people were going to his personal Facebook page (assuming he has one) to give him criticism on whatever form (be that polite constructive criticism or simply hateful bashing). This forum was created for the main purpose of giving fans a place to discuss the comic. Discuss it doesnÔÇÖt always mean praise, sometimes it does mean criticize it.

4. There are plenty of authors and artists out there that are not interested in any sort of criticism (personally I donÔÇÖt get it, but itÔÇÖs their right), but thing they all have in common? They donÔÇÖt create and maintain websites for their work to be discussed. Now if the purpose of this forum is not to discuss the comic, it should definitely be renamed to reflect its purpose. Alternatively, the definition of what a discussion entails should be updated. Unless he forbids any sort of criticism to his work in a forum designed to discuss the comic (a mind boggling notion, no?), a moderators job shouldn't be to shut down any topic that doesn't lead to magical happiness land, but keep it from turning into hatesville.

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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by WearsHats » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:10 am

No one has ever said you can't criticize the comic here. There's a difference between "You can't say anything critical" and "Don't be a jerk about it." Likewise, you can disagree, but don't be surprised if people disagree with you right back. Or correct the record on complaints and accusations based on false assumptions.

Furthermore, what I actually said in this thread is not "You're not welcome here." It was "I don't understand why you keep coming back when most of what you say is that you don't like what you're reading (in the comic or on the forum)." When I find a comic or a show which had started off promising but then became disappointing (due to a shift in direction, sloppy writing, whatever), I give it a chance to win me over or shift again. If I'm still disappointed, I move on. Sometimes, I talk to friends about why recent developments have disappointed me, or about plot holes and flaws in something I otherwise enjoyed. But if, for a sustained period, I've got more criticism and disappointment than enjoyment, then it's probably not for me.

Which does not mean I'm saying everyone else has to do what I do.

As for being a moderator around here, it's not a matter of seniority, though I have been around since three forums ago, and longer on the livestreams. There's a lot more to it than just being around.

Conversely, becoming a mod doesn't mean that you can't express a personal opinion. It means that, besides being part of the community, we're sometimes called on to enforce the rules. And we try to do that as little as necessary.

But that's as much as I plan on saying. I don't see the point in rehashing further, and this thread is supposed to be about the current page.
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by Morgaln » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:25 am

RocketScientist wrote:If that's what he means, then he's demonstrably wrong, and decidedly out of luck. It's Thunt's forum, and he's including Thunt in the people he thinks should bow to his opinion on the purpose of forums, or go away. Which... that's not how anything works. You don't get to go into someone else's house, declare the purpose of houses and state that anybody who's there needs to either agree with you and not question your behavior or go away. Good luck with that attitude offline. :chuckle:
Last time I checked this was a public forum that everyone can join. If you don't want just anyone to wander into your house, maybe you shouldn't leave the door open and put up signs where to find it.

Also, I think it is quite interesting that you claim it is "demonstrably wrong" that this forum is for both positive and negative opinions. About two years ago, we had a discussion in this very forum, where you among other people stated that criticism is allowed on this forum and that Hunt himself appreciates constructive criticism. You can find the relevant thread here: http://www.goblinsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426
I will point out that the linked thread marks a significant increase in posts from myself because I took you at face value, despite my previous experiences in the forum. Many of those posts contained criticism, and I will admit that probably not all of it was constructive (I do maintain that a fair share of it was, though). Did the purpose of the forum change? Or was criticism not welcome to begin with? Either way, this should be made clear, preferably in the rules of the forum.

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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by Guus » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:59 am

Can I chime in and speak for everyone for a moment here please? I of course have all the answers and am obviously capable of reading everyone's thoughts, because I'm awesome like that.

I don't think this discussion is about criticism. I think it is about how the criticism is worded, from both sides of the argument, and possibly some underlying issues. From calling the users of the forum suck ups (Xavier) and phrasing that's easily interpreted as shutting down any form of criticism (RS). Maybe take a step back, try to read between the lines, and assume the best instead of the worst might help. Also, maybe a thread split.
I am obviously one hundred percent right about this and you all need to apologize to me personally for making me use my mad people skills to read you all and be perfectly on point.
In all seriousness, taking a step back and maybe a chill pill might help.

Also: I forgot about that thread Morgaln, it was at the very least interesting to skim through again. Thanks for the link!
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by mustache_man » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:10 am

WearsHats wrote:
Conversely, becoming a mod doesn't mean that you can't express a personal opinion. It means that, besides being part of the community, we're sometimes called on to enforce the rules. And we try to do that as little as necessary.
I don't recall anybody saying that mods should not hold or express their own opions. They are forum users before being mods after all. But there's a huge difference between a mod making a post that says I disagree and another mod making a post saying I disagree and I don't want to hear another word about it. The first is completely fine, the other not so much.

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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by WearsHats » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:58 pm

The way I see it, then:

This is a forum that Thunt set up at his own expense for fans to discuss the comic and otherwise hang out together as a community. It is, literally and figuratively, his domain.

As for it being public... not quite. It's more like, say, a coffee shop. It's a space owned by the business with established rules. Anyone can walk through the front door, but doing so means agreeing to follow the rules. The establishment reserves the right to enforce those rules, up to and including banning those who violate the rules from the premises.

The rules do allow criticism (preferably constructive criticism). They do not allow disrespect or personal attacks. Being a jerk (including open hostility and thinly veiled passive aggression) is more subjective and falls into kind of a grey area, but it isn't likely to win you many friends and might result in a mod asking you to tone it down.

The rules also state that threads should remain on topic and that mods have the authority to shut down a line of discussion if it's becoming too heated, unproductive, etc.

So, no. This isn't the public square. It's a fan community. "Fan" is a broad term, but it does generally refer to people who enjoy the comic more than they find fault with it. "Community" is likewise subjective, but does indicate that there's a larger overall group dynamic rather than just a collection of random people passing through a public square.
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by Morgaln » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:53 pm

Alright, I understand. I will then go and make a report about a post that was disrespectful, contained thinly veiled passive aggression and violated a rule a moderator made only a few minutes before under thread of board warning. It will refer that you just said Hunt is running a business. I expect you to review that report in light of what you just said.

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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by GathersIngredients » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:33 am

Expect away. But allow me to get this straight for you:
Within these forums, users don't get to tell mods how to behave. Only the other way around.
If you don't like that, you're welcome to:
*) PM an admin
*) go somewhere else to post your "criticism", where your opinion doesn't get "suppressed" by the "regime/power crazed mods/take your pick of the stereotypes among the "I'm the victim" and/or "freedom of speech is in danger" cards that tend to get played in situations like this". :roll: (honestly, can't you think of something new and original for once?)


In either case, I expect not to see any more public announcements from you - or anyone else - about who or what you reported. That's between the person filing a report and the mod team. It's not a thing to be discussed in the forums, and most certainly NOT in a topic about a specific page of the comic, where it is - like many other posts in here - OFF-TOPIC.
In case you reported something and the report didn't get addressed/closed in a timely manner (we do have real lives), you can send a PM to a mod - preferably one of the sub-forum where the reported post originated from, if any - about it, informing them that there is a report that doesn't seem to have been dealt with.


"Notice:"
Now kindly let's all get back to the comic page. You know, the one where Fumbles - while being in the ring of holding - bites MinMax' finger.
If you want to talk about something else, please do so in the appropriate thread (you might have to open up a new one for that, depending on what you want to discuss).
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Re: 27-03-2017: Aggressive immigration policy

Post by Xavier78 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:53 pm

RocketScientist wrote:If that's what he means, then he's demonstrably wrong, and decidedly out of luck. It's Thunt's forum, and he's including Thunt in the people he thinks should bow to his opinion on the purpose of forums, or go away. Which... that's not how anything works. You don't get to go into someone else's house, declare the purpose of houses and state that anybody who's there needs to either agree with you and not question your behavior or go away. Good luck with that attitude offline. :chuckle:
Where do you get I think anyone at all should "bow to my opinion"? Don't pull stuff out of thin air. Differing opinions are a good thing and people who can't handle that shouldn't be in a place where that was supposedly allowed, which I made clear. Re-read what I said without the fanboy blinders. I didn't insult anyone, or try and shove MY opinion down anyone elses throat. You asked a question, I answered to the best of my ability. I didn't mean to trigger you.

**EDIT** My bad. Just seen the warning about shutting up. I'll say no more. My mistake.

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