Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

[willpell]

On the dwarf front: dwarves are essentially human, just a very extreme spectrum of the human experience.

This is exactly what I am saying.

None of their emotions are completely non-human, otherwise we would not comprehend them.

As I already said, elves are my benchmark for a really alien yet still vaguely comprehensible mindset. They eat and breathe and love and hate much as we do, but they never sleep or dream, and that makes for a huge rift between their mentality and ours, just not a complete and irreconcileable one.

My question is this: what creature can you think of that is far from being anything we've experienced?

In D&D the standard answer is Aberrations, though you can also make a pretty good argument for Elementals and perhaps even Outsiders. A mind flayer reads people's minds as if they were books, but is entirely devoid of empathy for those people, and happily eats them alive without minding the screams; that's not completely beyond humanity's possibility, but it's definitely far to the extremes, more psychotic than the worst human psychopath ever born, though perhaps not more than the worst one that theoretically could be born in future (if the human race continues long enough). A Water Elemental is utterly baffled by the concept of anything being solid; it can't figure out how any being can be incapable of flowing around obstacles and changing its chape at whim. A Devil is a being of pure Law and Evil; it has only the most theoretical grasp of what Good and Chaos are, or why anyone would ever favor them, because to its way of thinking, the correctness of Law and Evil as codes of behavior is simply obvious and unquestionable. Perhaps none of these are *completely* inhuman - but they're a damn sight more so than dwarves or even elves. Magical beasts and giants would also have somewhat strange mindsets due to their physical parameters, but I suspect humanity could adapt more easily to that sort of thing via shapeshifting; for a human to learn to think like an aboleth, a tojanida or a slaad would seem to require a VERY serious paradigm shift.

That would be a truly original work, and if it does a good job of explaining it I would like to read it.

I'm sure that I have read some very compelling portrayals over the years, but nothing much springs to mind at the moment.

[Rorrik]

My question is this: what creature can you think of that is far from being anything we've experienced?

In D&D the standard answer is Aberrations, though you can also make a pretty good argument for Elementals and perhaps even Outsiders. A mind flayer reads people's minds as if they were books, but is entirely devoid of empathy for those people, and happily eats them alive without minding the screams; that's not completely beyond humanity's possibility, but it's definitely far to the extremes, more psychotic than the worst human psychopath ever born, though perhaps not more than the worst one that theoretically could be born in future (if the human race continues long enough). A Water Elemental is utterly baffled by the concept of anything being solid; it can't figure out how any being can be incapable of flowing around obstacles and changing its chape at whim. A Devil is a being of pure Law and Evil; it has only the most theoretical grasp of what Good and Chaos are, or why anyone would ever favor them, because to its way of thinking, the correctness of Law and Evil as codes of behavior is simply obvious and unquestionable. Perhaps none of these are *completely* inhuman - but they're a damn sight more so than dwarves or even elves. Magical beasts and giants would also have somewhat strange mindsets due to their physical parameters, but I suspect humanity could adapt more easily to that sort of thing via shapeshifting; for a human to learn to think like an aboleth, a tojanida or a slaad would seem to require a VERY serious paradigm shift.

That would be a truly original work, and if it does a good job of explaining it I would like to read it.

I'm sure that I have read some very compelling portrayals over the years, but nothing much springs to mind at the moment.

Fair enough, those are really good examples of beings with very little human connection. But on the other hand, we are never asked to be inside the minds of those creatures. When we do, they become much more human. They are set up as so different so we are not emotionally invested in their death.

I concede, they are very different, but I don't see how that makes them more original than dwarves. I'm not sure what the argument is here, or why I got involved.

My conclusion: yes, Dwarves are very like humans, sure, elves less so, probably why I find dwarves to be more interesting characters than elves. There are lots of creatures that are very different from humans in their very being, but they are never protagonists because their thoughts hardly appeal to a wide audience.

[ForgetsOldName]

The overriding theme of the LofR books (and one that Peter Jackson completely missed, IMHO) is the nature of mortality and immortality, and why (the Catholic) God would set up such a wacky system in the first place.

Elves live forever but they do not get immortal souls. They "fade away."
Dwarves have souls but apparently don't get to go to heaven.
Orcs have no consciousness after their wizard dies.
Hobbits are short, furry humans. They eventually interbreed and die out as a separate species. Their lifestyle is only sustainable when wizards come to visit them.
Humans are the only model that is sustainable in a non-magical world.

Jackson left out the scouring of the Shire, which in my opinion is the whole point of the book. The age of magic is over, long live the people who die. Instead he was obsessed with CGI eagle rides.

[Catmandont]

Pfft. "Abomination" indeed. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of creating a mindless, obedient worker-race. We've already done it after all; are you a slaver because you go out and buy a Roomba? Nonsense!

I can't explain why, but I giggled like a schoolgirl when I read this quote. Granted, if said schoolgirl were in her 40's and a man, but I digress.

[Trojan]

Hmm, the joy of different editions When did elves stop needing to sleep? I remember (well I think I do) using S&P to cut their hours down from 8 to 4 a night... Of course since I mainly play in Birthright where elves (sidhe) are immortal and dwarves (karamhul) can subsist on dirt and magical energy I'm well out of the debate

In alignment terms dwarves were a much more socially supportive and homogenous group than humans in the editions I am familiar with - LG almost exclusively (different for some sub-races) vs LN norm for humans with all alignments routinely found in all human groups; I'd expect very different internal social dynamics between dwarven societies and human societies as a result - that could however be interpreted to mean that the dwarves are basically just heavily armed Amish with copious amounts of strong booze though

Incidentally I always interpreted the lack of outward emotion in dwarves as just reserve - plenty of emotion inside, just not much shared with outsiders - once they get to know someone (over a few decades say) they open up

I'm hazy on original and advanced editions nowadays (getting old) but in 2e Forgotten Realms the Dwarves Deep accessory notes (page 6) that dwarves could cross breed with humans, gnomes and halflings with the outcome similar to a pure dwarf. I'm fairly sure that the "stout" halflings were supposed to have dwarven blood and the "tallfellows" had elven blood in vanila 2e so in 2e at least everyone was at it with everyone else In 3e a lot of that sort of sub-race stuff got glossed over (until the inevitable splat-books), I failed to get thru' the 4e books to know what was in them and don't know if I'll even get 5e so I should probably stay out of arguments between the cool kids though

Hmm, I miss the GAP, the MoM arc looks to be near an end so hopefully we'll see them soon, though the Well of Darkness/Junior arc also now sorted I'm kindof hoping that Thunt takes a break to get the books ready and maybe get ahead a bit - we haven't had a tempts fate in a while and I'm feeling guilty

[willpell]

My conclusion: yes, Dwarves are very like humans, sure, elves less so, probably why I find dwarves to be more interesting characters than elves.

In general, if the character could be human, I'd rather that it was human. I'm cool with nonhuman protagonists, but they should be actually different, like elves and vampires and dragons. Dwarves and giants and the like are more "faux" nonhuman, or "quasi-human", and I think this is unsatisfying.

Hmm, the joy of different editions When did elves stop needing to sleep?

Interestingly there are references to elves sleeping in Races of the Wild, making me suspect that Wizards' own writers hadn't read the PHB....

Of course since I mainly play in Birthright where elves (sidhe) are immortal and dwarves (karamhul) can subsist on dirt and magical energy I'm well out of the debate

Interesting. I've heard of sidhe but not of karamhul; do they have a mythical basis as well or were they just made up? Birthright is a CW I know almost nothing about; I don't think I'd especially like it, given that it's supposed to really hit hard on the feudalism theme and that's never been a part of the S&S genre that I particularly loved. Though I'd think they'd want to re-promote it now that AGOT is popular, as the parallel seems obvious.

that could however be interpreted to mean that the dwarves are basically just heavily armed Amish with copious amounts of strong booze though

This is exactly what I would rather not see.

Incidentally I always interpreted the lack of outward emotion in dwarves as just reserve - plenty of emotion inside, just not much shared with outsiders - once they get to know someone (over a few decades say) they open up

This is the way it's described in Races of Stone. Though they're not huge on sharing even with their own families.

[Kalontas]

In general, if the character could be human, I'd rather that it was human. I'm cool with nonhuman protagonists, but they should be actually different, like elves and vampires and dragons. Dwarves and giants and the like are more "faux" nonhuman, or "quasi-human", and I think this is unsatisfying.

Dwarves and giants can definitely feel non-human if they're written/played by an able person. I like to present giants as appearing kinda slow and mentally unmoving, but just like you quickly realise a Giant only appears to move slowly, his slow wit is also only an impression. Dwarves as kinda Vulcan-ish are also a good way of doing them, but you have to keep in mind greed.

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

Don't forget dwarves holding their breath a lot.

Reference:

► Show Spoiler

Chronicles of Prydain

[Sizemore Rockwell]

- or is it that the floor is acting upon MinMax's legs in an upward pushing motion? In which case, he gets crushed...?

Hmm, Minmax should be able to stop the tower from rising by standing on the sword, lain on its side (crouching down to keep his hand on the hilt, if necessary)...but then he wouldn't be able to use it to defend himself.

[dr pepper]

I wanted to start a topic for the current comic, but i can't find a button for it. So this topic appears to be the most relevant.

I predict that Minmax will get hold of the antigravity sling that one of his alters is using to get to the top of the tower. I also suspect that he will first put it on wrong and almost strangle himself.

Also: that was a smart thing throwing up all the keys because "the key that winks" probably doesn't just mean the key with the eye in it.

[gamecreator]

It may be not obvious, but the thread on the current page exists.

[willpell]

I predict that Minmax will get hold of the antigravity sling that one of his alters is using to get to the top of the tower. I also suspect that he will first put it on wrong and almost strangle himself.

That "sling" is a sentient being named Klik, who would probably not cooperate. I'm guessing you're new to the comic?

[Trojan]

Of course since I mainly play in Birthright where elves (sidhe) are immortal and dwarves (karamhul) can subsist on dirt and magical energy I'm well out of the debate

Interesting. I've heard of sidhe but not of karamhul; do they have a mythical basis as well or were they just made up? Birthright is a CW I know almost nothing about; I don't think I'd especially like it, given that it's supposed to really hit hard on the feudalism theme and that's never been a part of the S&S genre that I particularly loved. Though I'd think they'd want to re-promote it now that AGOT is popular, as the parallel seems obvious.

I don't think that the Karamhul had a particular mythical basis, they were just an attempt to move standard dwarves away from being human I think, BR moved the sidhe/elves much more though. I think that my favourite elves in D&D are still those from the Time of the Dragon sourcebook for Dragonlance though - Hulderfolk, Clan & Cha'asii - all very different to the normal D&D elves and Hulderfolk in particular based more on the fey of legend than Tolkein.

Sadly BR is long forgotten by WOTC (they let the trademark lapse and weren't interested in BR.net working on a 5e conversion). An AGOT conversion is something that has been discussed on the br.net forums briefly without much coming of it (a proper conversion would be a lot of work). The BR system for running nations, etc doesn't require feudalism (it's pretty abstract) and it could be converted to AGOT or any other realm fairly easily, BR itself can be played S&S or Role-heavy as you wish - most PBeM's seem to be based in the nation of Anuire though which is a feudal setting, and when running realms over a PBeM the S&S side tends to be reduced heavily.

that could however be interpreted to mean that the dwarves are basically just heavily armed Amish with copious amounts of strong booze though

This is exactly what I would rather not see.

Tends to be a gripe of mine, I wrote a paper on sidhe psychology - the impact on society of its people of living forever, having no elderly/few children, never getting ill, needing no industry, etc to help me write about their society, etc - to get away from elves as "people with pointy ears" and got a complaint from a reader that it nearly killed them to get through it

[dr pepper]

I predict that Minmax will get hold of the antigravity sling that one of his alters is using to get to the top of the tower. I also suspect that he will first put it on wrong and almost strangle himself.

That "sling" is a sentient being named Klik, who would probably not cooperate. I'm guessing you're new to the comic?

No, been reading for a long time, just didn't realize what it was.

[dr pepper]

Tends to be a gripe of mine, I wrote a paper on sidhe psychology - the impact on society of its people of living forever, having no elderly/few children, never getting ill, needing no industry, etc to help me write about their society, etc - to get away from elves as "people with pointy ears" and got a complaint from a reader that it nearly killed them to get through it

Interesting. I like to build societies by imagining what a species's presentient ancestors would have lived.

[The Scrub]

Hmmm.
What would happen if they found the correct key and tossed the wrong keys into one of the Oblivion Holes (they used one oblivion hole to bypass the maze after all).
According to the way they I think they work the wrong keys will never have existed, this means that MinMax must have picked the right key, thus lifting him upward and leading to the mouth mechanism never closing.

Of course that seems a bit farfetched.

[CelineSSauve]

Hmmm.
What would happen if they found the correct key and tossed the wrong keys into one of the Oblivion Holes (they used one oblivion hole to bypass the maze after all).
According to the way they I think they work the wrong keys will never have existed, this means that MinMax must have picked the right key, thus lifting him upward and leading to the mouth mechanism never closing.

Of course that seems a bit farfetched.

That wouldn't work.

As Thunt explained, if you were heartless enough to push your mother into an O-Hole, then you would still exist. You'd just never have had a mother.

Thus, if the incorrect keys had "never existed" MinMax would have snagged the only key (the wall mentioned two others would still be there, though he can't read), tossed it up, and had the mouth closed on him.

[The Scrub]

Ah, thanks for clarifying.
I didn't know that.

then I guess it's up to tampering with the mechanism or the Teapot/Victory Conditions save the day (I am being cautiously optimistic here that Minmax will get out of this alive but that isn't a certainty)

[BuildsLegos]

It amazes me how many of you aren't getting that he can find the zombie-infested hallway and climb through the ceiling again. I expect Kin to be waiting for him.

[gamecreator]

There are too many zombies for him to defeat.

[CelineSSauve]

It amazes me how many of you aren't getting that he can find the zombie-infested hallway and climb through the ceiling again. I expect Kin to be waiting for him.

I'd love to hear how to expect him to get off of the Tower (which is likely rising at the moment) without dying. You know, in order to get to that hallway.

My vote is in with the "they'll open the mouth" lot.

[BuildsLegos]

A) The zombies & Kins will have thinned each other out.

B) If the tower is going up, getting off is a REALLY good idea.

C) If the alts can climb up, our Minimax can climb down.

[CelineSSauve]

A) The zombies & Kins will have thinned each other out.

You have a lot of faith in the "altKins". (I'm wondering why members of three separate groups would be working together, so they may just be three members of Kin's Clan, set to return with their Quest Item.)

B) If the tower is going up, getting off is a REALLY good idea.

The Tower has a ledge at the top which will stop a regular-sized MinMax from getting squished.

C) If the alts can climb up, our Minimax can climb down.

It is easier to grab a guy's leg and toss him off a Tower, than it is to fight people below you while climbing safely down the Tower.

[RocketScientist]

A) The zombies & Kins will have thinned each other out.

You have a lot of faith in the "altKins". (I'm wondering why members of three separate groups would be working together, so they may just be three members of Kin's Clan, set to return with their Quest Item.)

Sapphire Kin is from reality 54. Or 12. But not the same one as Ruby and Onyx Kin. http://www.goblinscomic.com/06242011/

[CelineSSauve]

Sapphire Kin is from reality 54. Or 12. But not the same one as Ruby and Onyx Kin. http://www.goblinscomic.com/06242011/

Ooh, hey. Good catch!