Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

[axe11154]

OK I don't know if this was covered but doesn't Minmax have the ability to summon that sword and cut thought diminutions?
Couldn't he say.... I don't know.... just cut a whole to The others to get back? or is that not how the sword works.

[SamWiser]

He can summon the sword at will, but it can only cut through things that other swords can cut through. Other things can't affect it, so it can block perfectly, but it can't cut through solid stone.

[axe11154]

Wait?
If he can summon and unsummon why not summon it somewhere elce with a string attached and just go through the hole?

[ForgetsOldName]

Wait?
If he can summon and unsummon why not summon it somewhere elce with a string attached and just go through the hole?

I think the idea is that it doesn't exist when he drops it. If you went into the hole, you'd obliviate.

[gamecreator]

Wait?
If he can summon and unsummon why not summon it somewhere elce with a string attached and just go through the hole?

Because you will face a paradox: if Minmax summoned himself from the past with the help of his sword, he would've not been present to summon himself.

[axe11154]

Wait?
If he can summon and unsummon why not summon it somewhere elce with a string attached and just go through the hole?

Because you will face a paradox: if Minmax summoned himself from the past with the help of his sword, he would've not been present to summon himself.

but there right now in a world of paradox so couldn't it work using that?
A Paradox in a paradox world creates a negative paradox?
Something my science teacher told me once. Not sure what the hell it means but Maybe that?

[BuildsLegos]

That you don't understand what you're saying is an indication that you should stop saying it.

[axe11154]

That you don't understand what you're saying is an indication that you should stop saying it.

lmao
You got a point
But hay, I had to give it a shot.

[willpell]

I think the idea is that it doesn't exist when he drops it. If you went into the hole, you'd obliviate.

It's not that it doesn't exist, it's that it doesn't travel through time. The reason nothing can go through the hole is simply that the hole only exists for Minmax and Oblivious (and is too small for Minmax to fit through with more than a hand).

That you don't understand what you're saying is an indication that you should stop saying it.

Okay, as the guy who is currently banned from Controversy for saying stuff that got him yelled at, to the guy who has also gotten yelled at - this is a thing you say if you want to get yelled at. I get having a low tolerance for the appearance of stupidity, but take from one who has tried to tell people to stop being idiots and listen to him - it never works. Learning the level of tact society demands of you is probably going to be counterintuitive, difficult, and seemingly pointless, but I humbly suggest that it will be to your benefit to make the effort.

[BuildsLegos]

And yet axe knew exactly what I meant; but I suppose you could argue I got lucky.

[willpell]

And yet axe knew exactly what I meant; but I suppose you could argue I got lucky.

Yeah I saw that as I was posting but decided to go ahead and post anyway; hope you don't mind. All's well that ends well I guess....

[axe11154]

If were on the topic of stupidity
then why not use minmax?
While I have no idea what the hell I was talking about Minmax wouldn't know ether
Stupidity might save the day

[SccrD25]

"Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the dwarves strong to endure. Therefor they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not forever."
ÔÇò The Silmarillion, "Of Aul├½ and Yavanna"

*sigh* Tolkien.... In any event, this doesn't prove anything by my standards, but I have no explanation for why that I can put into words. It's just obvious to me that this is just...well, the closest I can come to getting my thoughts to make sense is to say this is the trope "A Wizard Did It", which is no explanation for anything. If some doofus could wave his hand and make dwarves tough and "fast in friendship and enmity" (what a godawful concept), then some other doofus could wave his hand and make humans exactly the same, or for that matter could make them a species of radioactive blue flamingos. It has nothing to do with the quintessential nature of dwarfness, which is at most fractionally different from the quintessential nature of humanness, while the quintessential nature of elfness is miles away.

Guessing you never read the Silmarillion? While I certainly can appreciate dislike for the "wizard did it" trope that's not the case here. RS just put up a small chunk but the creation of the Dwarfs is a pretty cool story. The basic jist is the main uber god, Ilúvatar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eru_Il%C3%BAvatar ) had a plan set up for the making of Middle Earth. He made the elves and their brothers the men. He "woke up" elves first and man later. Then it was discovered that Aulë, another god, had disobeyed his master (and father) Ilúvatar's wishes and had made his own people in his image, the dwarfs. He hid them underground to try and keep the other gods from finding out, hence the whole dwarf-underground connection. Long story short, the big daddy god does find out and is about to smite them because they could mess up his plans. But when he looks down at their poor innocent mortal faces he is moved and cant make them go squish. He alters his world plans to include this new race. This is just a short synopsis, but like like I said, pretty cool story.

My only point here is that the creation of dwarfs in Tolkien is no "hand wave" and if you have time for a heavy read, the Silmarillion has some gems in it (and admittedly a lot of boring ass "black begot blank who begot blank")

[Rorrik]

Don't forget, the dwarves as originally created were soulless automatons, robots to be controlled with no free will. That was the real crime of Aulë. Ilúvatar had to give them spirit to allow them to not be an abomination. Only he could do that.

The real question is where the halflings came from. But that's always a mystery, in all settings I can think of. Even in Goblins the only mention of halflings has been the other PC who likes playing short characters. Well, that and today's mention by reality 169's rant: http://www.goblinscomic.com/03142013/

[SccrD25]

Oh you're right, I forgot about the soulless thing! Yeah only big daddy (and later the big bad daddy) had the power to give things souls, which he did after the deciding not to squish moment.

In Tolkien the Hobbits are an offshoot race of man. In D&D, I haven't the slightest

[axe11154]

I FIGURED IT OUT
When kin first became a main character and she told us how she got far up north she talked about a tleportation devise which her people had long ago. What if once they use the key it turns out the devise is inside the little area. They choose that as loot and use it to save minmax
then minmax uses it to get to Names.... That then explains why we havnt seen are goblin adventurers resonantly. Because their plot is directly connected with Minmax plot and they are about to intertwine. This would bring are dear dwarf to the Tank guy (cant remember his name) where he will die to a dwarf.
THE PLOT IS MAKING SINCE
if some one already talked about this sorry

[LurksQuietly]

I FIGURED IT OUT
When kin first became a main character and she told us how she got far up north she talked about a tleportation devise which her people had long ago. What if once they use the key it turns out the devise is inside the little area. They choose that as loot and use it to save minmax
then minmax uses it to get to Names.... That then explains why we havnt seen are goblin adventurers resonantly. Because their plot is directly connected with Minmax plot and they are about to intertwine. This would bring are dear dwarf to the Tank guy (cant remember his name) where he will die to a dwarf.
THE PLOT IS MAKING SINCE
if some one already talked about this sorry

You got it, axe! That's definitely one of the ideas that has been discussed and people seem to generally agree is a likely option.

The item in question is the "Jade Teapot", and you can actually see it in the treasure room in the update here: http://www.goblinscomic.com/02192013/

It's in the middle on the left side. Or at least that's what seems like it SHOULD be the Jade Teapot...

[axe11154]

I FIGURED IT OUT
When kin first became a main character and she told us how she got far up north she talked about a tleportation devise which her people had long ago. What if once they use the key it turns out the devise is inside the little area. They choose that as loot and use it to save minmax
then minmax uses it to get to Names.... That then explains why we havnt seen are goblin adventurers resonantly. Because their plot is directly connected with Minmax plot and they are about to intertwine. This would bring are dear dwarf to the Tank guy (cant remember his name) where he will die to a dwarf.
THE PLOT IS MAKING SINCE
if some one already talked about this sorry

You got it, axe! That's definitely one of the ideas that has been discussed and people seem to generally agree is a likely option.

The item in question is the "Jade Teapot", and you can actually see it in the treasure room in the update here: http://www.goblinscomic.com/02192013/

It's in the middle on the left side. Or at least that's what seems like it SHOULD be the Jade Teapot...

wait..... but that meens are poor dwarfy friends going to die horribly..... really soon
Im sad now

[willpell]

Guessing you never read the Silmarillion?

Nope. I don't like Tolkien enough to especially want to read his campaign backstory. Guy was a good word-painter, but his ideas tend toward the boring by my standards (which are admittedly modern and kinda spoiled). I like the various works that have ripped him off and kicked things up a notch way more than I like the original.

My only point here is that the creation of dwarfs in Tolkien is no "hand wave"

Noted. But again, a) nothing about this story HAD to revolve around dwarves, Aule could just as easily have created dragons or chickens by the same process; b) this is still not a difference in WHO created the dwarves, but rather HOW he created; the fact that it was Aule rather than Illuviatar, in and of itself, means precisely dick-all, because all the difference is in WHAT these creators DID rather than who they WERE; had Illy created the dwarves and done exactly what Aule did and then changed his mind and fixed them, nothing would have changed; and c) it doesn't change the final outcome of dwarves resembling humans rather a lot while elves resemble either not very much.

Don't forget, the dwarves as originally created were soulless automatons, robots to be controlled with no free will. That was the real crime of Aulë. Ilúvatar had to give them spirit to allow them to not be an abomination. Only he could do that.

Pfft. "Abomination" indeed. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of creating a mindless, obedient worker-race. We've already done it after all; are you a slaver because you go out and buy a Roomba? Nonsense! No entity is owed free will by its creator; the atrocity is only taking free will away from an entity after they've gotten used to having it. If a lifeform of any variety is purpose-built and granted no capability to wish for any other existence, then its creator has crafted it well and has nothing to be ashamed of.

The real question is where the halflings came from. But that's always a mystery, in all settings I can think of. Even in Goblins the only mention of halflings has been the other PC who likes playing short characters. Well, that and today's mention by reality 169's rant: http://www.goblinscomic.com/03142013/

Even more than dwarves, I consider halflings to resemble humans. So much so that in my game, I ruled that all halflings are Strongheart halflings (they get a feat instead of +1 to saving throws, though a lot of them can spend that feat on a halfling-only "+1 to saving throws" feat), and consider them explicitly a diminutive subspecies who can freely interbreed with humans. There are some structural puzzlers associated - I really feel like setting halfling weight at 30 pounds was insane, they're not THAT tiny - but it's the same principle as with dwarves. There are humans in the real world who are really short, so a race of "like humans, except really short" doesn't come across as very impressive, and all the various racial bonuses you then slather on them are kinda random and don't seem to really tie into the underlying (almost-human) nature, nor change it significantly.

[gamecreator]

the Silmarillion has some gems in it

At least three.

[SccrD25]

the Silmarillion has some gems in it

At least three.

HA!! +9001 to you!

[SccrD25]

My only point here is that the creation of dwarfs in Tolkien is no "hand wave"

Noted. But again, a) nothing about this story HAD to revolve around dwarves, Aule could just as easily have created dragons or chickens by the same process;

but we are discussing the origin of dwarfs...

Anyway, can't you say that about every story ever? It didn't HAVE to revolve around "this", but it did, therefor it is the story of "it"

b) this is still not a difference in WHO created the dwarves, but rather HOW he created; the fact that it was Aule rather than Illuviatar, in and of itself, means precisely dick-all, because all the difference is in WHAT these creators DID rather than who they WERE; had Illy created the dwarves and done exactly what Aule did and then changed his mind and fixed them, nothing would have changed;

For that part you'd need to jump further back in the book. The basic order is:
Main God creates self
Makes other gods
one lesser god is a jerk and that's where we get evil
gods create the world
gods create the races

Who they WERE is already established at this point. That Aule was going against orders was what was important. Especially after his jerk brother already went against orders in a much bigger, worse way. How would big daddy react? What would be the fate of the mortals involved in this confrontation? Would more gods rebel depending on how everything went down? There was quite a lot going on with this story.

It also explains why elf + human = baby and dwarf + human/elf = nothing, which I believe was one of the original points

The "nothing would have changed" baffles me. Thats like saying Leia could have blown up the Death Star and the DS would still be gone so nothing would have changed. The point of a story is not the last sentence.

Most importantly, if you don't mind would you explain to me why you are arguing so vehemently against something you never read? Whats your stake in this?Edit: Nevermind, I forgot. This is the internet. Its what people do.

[stevedj]

Question about the Oblivion sword, based on the theory that the tower may yet rise since the correct key was taken (albeit with two wrong ones).

So, suppose the tower does start to rise up. MinMax retrieves Oblivion, and stands holding it above himself (like He-Man "I have the power!" stance). When the gap closes to where the sword touches the ceiling... and as the tower continues to rise...

- Is it now the ceiling trying to act upon the sword in a downward pushing motion? In which case the sword should prevail...? Remember Newton's first/second/third/one-of-those laws of motion - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So, sword pushes up on the ceiling, ceiling pushes down on the sword == no movement... except, the downward push should have no effect... Hmmm, now that I wrote that, it sounds like the sword should be able to cut through anything...

- or is it that the floor is acting upon MinMax's legs in an upward pushing motion? In which case, he gets crushed...?

Yea, probably the second one -- but I had to think about this one a bit, and thought maybe it would suggest other ideas to y'all?

Edit: 2nd thought - yea, you are all telling me now... Newton? Who is this Newton you speak of... He never existed in this world...

[willpell]

but we are discussing the origin of dwarfs...

What I'm discussing, or trying to, is what makes dwarves quintessentially distinct from humans (my assertion being "not much").

Anyway, can't you say that about every story ever? It didn't HAVE to revolve around "this", but it did, therefor it is the story of "it"

While it's very difficult to figure out what's truly quintessential, I have a very good starting point for it, as well as a second, much less good reference point which bears more of the load. The second point is just my own personal feelings, which I tend to assume I had a reason for developing, and thus they're more likely to be correct than incorrect, given all the information I had to base them on. But the first point, the one that's as close to inarguable as anything ever gets, is basic math, in particular geometry (or "sacred geometry" as its sometimes called). Without getting into whether there is or is not an intelligence of some sort behind it, the most basic guiding principles of the world we live in seem to be things like 1+2 = 3 or 2+2 = 2x2 or 2^3 < 3^2 or the like. The fact that a circle and a triangle are the two most efficient shapes possible (depending on the definition of "efficient"; one has the most area for the least perimeter and the other the reverse, or something to that effect, it's been a long time since I learned this stuff), or that a polygon with 12 sides has 20 corners while a polygon with 20 sides has 12 corners, or that 5 is the only number which divides into the same number of "sets of two" as "sets of three"...these are the hardest truths to question in our universe, and the fact that they exist in such a structurally unimpeachable form leads me to believe that all answers, ultimately, are just as rigid, if you understand their structure in sufficient detail.

(I actually *want* to believe the reverse, that things can be genuinely non-deterministic and random and that there is such a thing as chaos, but all the research that I've heard about it makes very little sense to my layman's perspective, invariably seeming to rely on what seem to be patently false assumptions. Like they say chaos theory proves you can never hope to predict next year's weather, because changes accumulate so fast you could never hope to track them all; I say of course you could, you would just need a psychotically powerful computer capable of counting the butterfly's wingbeats and individually tracking the motions of every atom of air he stirred up, thereby predicting the hurricane on the other side of the world. I have never seen anything that conclusively demonstrates that scientists who say "it can't be done" aren't simply shrugging their shoulders and giving up because it's too difficult to bother with; I'm not saying they have to bust their humps and go beyond the impossible, only that they theoretically could, and thus they have no right to say "it's completely impossible and absolutely can't be done period". As long as they accept that it's simply massively unlikely, then I can continue to believe it's possible, and might randomly happen at any moment just because, and I like being able to feel that way.)

Main God creates self

Pfft. :rolleyes: Naturally....

The "nothing would have changed" baffles me. Thats like saying Leia could have blown up the Death Star and the DS would still be gone so nothing would have changed. The point of a story is not the last sentence.

If we're in a conversation about the structural soundness of Death Stars, then whether it was Luke or Leia that blew it up wouldn't matter. Likewise, we're discussing the ideological soundness of dwarves as a race-concept (I hate the word "race" in this context, it ought to be "species"), and so who created them doesn't matter; what matters is whether a dwarf is such a thing that, whoever had created it, it cannot be mistaken for them having created a race of short, tough, long-lived humans who live underground and can see in the dark. None of these characteristics make the dwarf distinctively nonhuman, but the elves' ability to never sleep and not go insane is completely alien to everything I know about how the human mind (not brain) works. If they never sleep, they never dream, and that impacts their psychology in a way that matters more than whether they're eighty feet tall and breathe fire. I don't see dwarves as having anything about their mindset which makes them fundamentally unlike humans. (Orcs are kind of in the middle on this scale; they're not as distinctly un-human to me as elves, but more so than dwarves, because they prominently exagerrate humanity's brutish qualities, while dwarves only slightly exagerrate their own set of resemblances to humans. This is admittedly kind of a fiddly distinction on my part.)

Most importantly, if you don't mind would you explain to me why you are arguing so vehemently against something you never read? Whats your stake in this?Edit: Nevermind, I forgot. This is the internet. Its what people do.

I wouldn't say "vehemently arguing", more like "vigorously discussing". I like to explore ideas (chiefly my own) by talking them through at great length; to me this is what having a mind is for. As I define the term "argument", it would need to be more acrimonious than I ever have any wish to be; I have no desire whatsoever to hurt anyone's feelings or provoke any sort of ill will. I just like tossing an idea back and forth to see how it flies, look at it from a variety of different angles, and decide what light it looks best in, or how it might be changed to be more pleasing to look at, or something to that effect.

[Rorrik]

Question about the Oblivion sword, based on the theory that the tower may yet rise since the correct key was taken (albeit with two wrong ones).

So, suppose the tower does start to rise up. MinMax retrieves Oblivion, and stands holding it above himself (like He-Man "I have the power!" stance). When the gap closes to where the sword touches the ceiling... and as the tower continues to rise...

- Is it now the ceiling trying to act upon the sword in a downward pushing motion? In which case the sword should prevail...? Remember Newton's first/second/third/one-of-those laws of motion - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So, sword pushes up on the ceiling, ceiling pushes down on the sword == no movement... except, the downward push should have no effect... Hmmm, now that I wrote that, it sounds like the sword should be able to cut through anything...

- or is it that the floor is acting upon MinMax's legs in an upward pushing motion? In which case, he gets crushed...?

Yea, probably the second one -- but I had to think about this one a bit, and thought maybe it would suggest other ideas to y'all?

Edit: 2nd thought - yea, you are all telling me now... Newton? Who is this Newton you speak of... He never existed in this world...

You're right though, if the rule is as plain and simple as "Only Minmax can move the sword" why wouldn't he able to hold it above him and stop the tower from squishing him? Maybe he would get squished against the sword? But what if he lies down and wedges the sword between tower and teeth? Then it should stop both, either way, right? As long as he keeps a hand on it, neither the tower nor the teeth could effect its position, whether to break it or knock it aside. That being said, he wouldn't be able to cut through anything, otherwise not-Walter's sword would have cleaved in two when he blocked it.

On the dwarf front: dwarves are essentially human, just a very extreme spectrum of the human experience. None of their emotions are completely non-human, otherwise we would not comprehend them. My question is this: what creature can you think of that is far from being anything we've experienced? That would be a truly original work, and if it does a good job of explaining it I would like to read it. Most of the monsters and creatures of fantasy we love so much, though, merely explore an extreme of the human experience, allowing us to identify with them. Extra Credits says it better than I can.