Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Discuss the comic here!
Post Reply
User avatar
ForgetsOldName
Is Heard Often
Posts: 301
UStream Username: TwoCoo
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by ForgetsOldName » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:56 pm

willpell wrote:
ForgetsOldName wrote:
Wolfie wrote:Then aye, you're a dwarf. :D
Heard the news that the Neanderthals had better vision than early modern humans, at the cost of (ahem) social cognition? Adds further support to the theory that our cold-loving, gem-spotting, tough and hairy little cousins may be a based on ancient memory.
That is an intriguing theory. I've always felt as if dwarves were "more human" than elves, and this would certainly be one reason for it. Although they did make Neanderthals a playable race in Frostburn. Also, were IRL Neanderthals smaller than Cro-Magnon Man? I always thought they were slightly larger.
Z Morphol Anthropol. 1998;82(1):1-12.
Body height, body mass and surface area of the Neanderthals.
Helmuth H.
Source
Trent University, Peterborough, ON, Canada.
Abstract
Body size, expressed as height or stature, is an important determinant of many other biological variables. Thus, it is surprising that many textbooks portray a wrong picture of Neanderthal height as being "very short" or "just over 5 feet". Based on 45 long bones from maximally 14 males and 7 females, Neanderthals' height averages between 164 and 168 (males) resp. 152 to 156 cm (females). This height is indeed 12-14 cm lower than the height of post-WWII Europeans, but compared to Europeans some 20,000 or 100 years ago, it is practically identical or even slightly higher. Considering the body build of Neanderthals, new body weight estimates show that they are only slightly above the cm/weight or the Body Mass Index of modern Americans or Canadians. The calculation of the relative surface area (approximately 240-244 cm2/kg) is very low and supports earlier findings of a morphological and anatomical thermoregulatory adaptation to a cold climate in the Neanderthals.
Source

The kicker is that Europeans 100 years ago were not that tall compared to a lot of other populations. Cro-magnons seem to have been slightly taller on average, but there were some outliers that were much taller, over six feet. Pre-Columbian Americans seem to have been much taller than Europeans. Pre-agriculture humans were much taller than the Neanderthals. So it's possible to imagine a population of lean, lanky, Cro-magnons dwarfing the stocky, short armed, little guys.
The old name was Twocoo. The avatar is the scariest thing in Wizardry I, circa 1981.

Eustace
Remains Silent
Posts: 3

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by Eustace » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:56 pm

Hey all figured I would finally register and post. Now correct me if I am wrong but in http://www.goblinscomic.com/01062012/ Psimax says that Min dies in the tower room. Now I am hoping that having moved through the hole caused by the oblivion hole has changed all the variables but it doesn't look good.

User avatar
CheeseToastofDeath
Wins a Fan Art Contest
Posts: 15
UStream Username: CheeseToastofDeath

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by CheeseToastofDeath » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:10 pm

You know that aside to universe #88, the one with the FMK that had gone up against absurdly powerful goblins? I'm still wondering what the importance of that was. I doubt Thunt would do something like that if it wasn't foreshadowing for something.
What I'm getting at, here, is that while 'evil is winning', justifying why all or most of the FMKs that they've gone against have been evil, that still suggests there's a healthy minority of non-evil FMKs in that room. I'm kind of suspecting he's going to start gathering allies during this fight, somehow, #88 among them. I mean, Minmax's charisma is supposed to be awesome. Further speculation is that a group of them forms just in time to get unceremoniously slaughtered in a boss battle with PsiMax.

User avatar
Glemp
Poorly Locked Patron
Poorly Locked Patron
Posts: 1082

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by Glemp » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:15 pm

CheeseToastofDeath wrote:You know that aside to universe #88, the one with the FMK that had gone up against absurdly powerful goblins? I'm still wondering what the importance of that was. I doubt Thunt would do something like that if it wasn't foreshadowing for something.
My guess is that Kin will recognise Complains, causing MinMax to wonder how she knows his name after the fight. Then, well, he has killed a Complains of Names, so he may be satisfied.

User avatar
ForgetsOldName
Is Heard Often
Posts: 301
UStream Username: TwoCoo
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by ForgetsOldName » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:42 pm

Eustace wrote:Hey all figured I would finally register and post. Now correct me if I am wrong but in http://www.goblinscomic.com/01062012/ Psimax says that Min dies in the tower room. Now I am hoping that having moved through the hole caused by the oblivion hole has changed all the variables but it doesn't look good.
He would have died somewhere on his way up the tower--he has never actually started at the top before and come back down. That's the unexpected difference. He is in a good position defensively, but he has also made himself the chief target of the fastest and most powerful of the opponents. He also has Oblivious, which he never had before.

However the point of all this is that Psimax has no idea how the battle will come out now. Even if Minmax does die, he will probably take down many of the top contenders. In fact a good strategy at this point might be to hold back and concentrate on the people below you while Minmax takes out the parties that would have won otherwise. Minmax may have bad odds, but he's still got the best odds of anybody out there.
The old name was Twocoo. The avatar is the scariest thing in Wizardry I, circa 1981.

User avatar
AccursedBiscuit
Pipes Up Sometimes
Posts: 162
Location: Yup

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by AccursedBiscuit » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:52 pm

That's a good point, Minmax is gonna have to fight the top contenders, because they're the closest to the top of the tower. But I think something unexpected is about to happen, because last time MM let go of his sword, you could see the Red-helmeted MM through the hole, and so far the red helmets are nowhere to be found, unless they're climbing the back of the tower, as previously stated. So I think something else is gonna happen, like the arms are gonna start spiraling down the tower, knocking everyone climbing off (note the threads going all the way up the tower). Also, someone mentioned a case where Psimax brings the red helmets to the end, because his statistics said that they would win. I think I agree with that theory. So, arms, spiral down, possibly killing off all the other alts, MM finds some way to reunite with Forgath and Kin, and Psimax brings the red helmets to the finish, maybe because they're the only surviving alts. But with THunt, who knows?
I'm no ordinary biscuit. Just look at my horns.

User avatar
Marnath
Is Heard Often
Posts: 378

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by Marnath » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:57 pm

Glemp wrote:
CheeseToastofDeath wrote:You know that aside to universe #88, the one with the FMK that had gone up against absurdly powerful goblins? I'm still wondering what the importance of that was. I doubt Thunt would do something like that if it wasn't foreshadowing for something.
My guess is that Kin will recognise Complains, causing MinMax to wonder how she knows his name after the fight. Then, well, he has killed a Complains of Names, so he may be satisfied.
Complains is not in the maze, the Forgath Minmax and Kin from that universe are. They're the ones with giant scars all over their faces and bodies.

User avatar
Misterkami
Remains Silent
Posts: 9

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by Misterkami » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:00 pm

Somehow I found myself wondering what it would be like if we would have been following a different group of alts and just as "our" team is almost at the top of the tower, an unknown, angry looking MM almost magically appears from atop the tower, grabs the keys and throws them out the room. :shock:

How would we react to him and how would all the alts react to him? Would we still see his facial expressions as heroic? Would (will) the alts see this as a loss of reasons to fight and just stop? Or would they double their efforts to get up there, take revenge on this annoying MM and somehow try to open the mouth again? :wall:

Also: I do hope that before the Maze arc is over, we get to find out what the strange torches in the hallway were for and why the blood on the walls seemed concentrated around them.. :shrug:

User avatar
Rorrik
Pipes Up Sometimes
Posts: 150

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by Rorrik » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:34 pm

Misterkami wrote:Also: I do hope that before the Maze arc is over, we get to find out what the strange torches in the hallway were for and why the blood on the walls seemed concentrated around them.. :shrug:
Not in the comic we won't. Thunt might answer if asked, though.

I'm fairly confident the alts are not going to simply give up because the mouth closed and all the keys are gone.

User avatar
willpell
Banned
Posts: 2085
Contact:

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by willpell » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:24 pm

Rorrik wrote:Dwarves are more human than humans. They're just not ashamed of it. They're humans without fear or inhibitions.
Are you kidding? Maybe in Goblins or other webcomics, maybe in Warhammer or Warcraft, but definitely not in D&D as written. Dwarves as they're described in Races of Stone are immensely inhibited; they compensate for the lack of physical privacy by keeping their emotions concealed as completely as possible. And the racial bonus versus fear is for halflings, not dwarves; dwarves scare exactly as easily as humans.
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
My long-neglected blog.

User avatar
RocketScientist
Global Moderator
Posts: 5888
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by RocketScientist » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:07 am

willpell wrote:That is an intriguing theory. I've always felt as if dwarves were "more human" than elves
Tolkien's weren't. His elves and humans were made by Iluvatar, the supreme God. His dwarves were made by Aulë the Vala (angel). I guess because he wanted to make people, too. I mean, who wouldn't, right?

User avatar
willpell
Banned
Posts: 2085
Contact:

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by willpell » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:54 am

RocketScientist wrote:Tolkien's weren't. His elves and humans were made by Iluvatar, the supreme God. His dwarves were made by Aulë the Vala (angel). I guess because he wanted to make people, too. I mean, who wouldn't, right?
Who created them isn't a very significant distinction. The only things I can think of about D&D dwarves that indicate they can't just be humans adapted to live underground is their darkvision and a lifespan of up to 250 years. Elves on the other hand have a lifespan of as much as a thousand years, they have bonuses to their perceptual skills which indicate that they're going to live in a rather different sensory world than humans, and most importantly, they never sleep, and yet continue to function without going completely stark raving mad. That makes elves extremely different from humans, while dwarves are only slightly so.

It's also one possible explanation for why there are half-elves but not half-dwarves; the rift between elves and humans is so great that a hybrid of them is distinctly different from both, but a half-dwarf is just a tall and brief-lived dwarf, or a short and long-lived human, depending on whether they inherit Darkvision and the racial bonus/penalty.
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
My long-neglected blog.

User avatar
BuildsLegos
Indulges in Conversation
Posts: 906
UStream Username: BuildsLegos
Location: So rorery in OKC

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by BuildsLegos » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:39 am

Actually, I'm certain that centuries-long lifespans and darkvision are within our genetic potential; it's just that after putting up with diseases and bad hygiene out in the open for so long has taken its toll.
The only one to pay attention to what happens in Goblins.

shufly
Remains Silent
Posts: 7

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by shufly » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:52 am

willpell wrote:It's also one possible explanation for why there are half-elves but not half-dwarves; the rift between elves and humans is so great that a hybrid of them is distinctly different from both, but a half-dwarf is just a tall and brief-lived dwarf, or a short and long-lived human, depending on whether they inherit Darkvision and the racial bonus/penalty.
The other explanation is that humans and dwarves cannot breed. When I played in the dark sun campaign setting, there was a note that one of the differences between it and other settings was that some powerful wizards had created half-breed human/dwarves called muls.

User avatar
Strong
Remains Silent
Posts: 3

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by Strong » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:17 am

shufly wrote: The other explanation is that humans and dwarves cannot breed. When I played in the dark sun campaign setting, there was a note that one of the differences between it and other settings was that some powerful wizards had created half-breed human/dwarves called muls.
In Dark Sun (by AD&D 2nd ed.) humans and dwarves could have babies (mul babies) in the "natural way", so they do not need any "help" from powerful wizadrds ;) Most of the times the mother was the human, who had a small chance to survive the delivery.
In the Prism Pentad, Rikus's friend, Neeva (human female gladiator) and a dwarf cleric called Caelum had a son, who had main role in the end of the saga...

But does anybody knows anything about the thursday(?) update?

shufly
Remains Silent
Posts: 7

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by shufly » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:28 am

Strong wrote:In Dark Sun (by AD&D 2nd ed.) humans and dwarves could have babies (mul babies) in the "natural way", so they do not need any "help" from powerful wizadrds.
You're probably right on that, I am a bit fuzzy on the details, but the point I was trying to make was in most settings, dwarves can't usually have babies with humans.

User avatar
RocketScientist
Global Moderator
Posts: 5888
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by RocketScientist » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:46 am

willpell wrote:
RocketScientist wrote:Tolkien's weren't. His elves and humans were made by Iluvatar, the supreme God. His dwarves were made by Aulë the Vala (angel). I guess because he wanted to make people, too. I mean, who wouldn't, right?
Who created them isn't a very significant distinction.
Sure it is.
The Silmarillion wrote: "Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the dwarves strong to endure. Therefor they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not forever."
ÔÇò The Silmarillion, "Of Aul├½ and Yavanna"
shufly wrote:
willpell wrote:It's also one possible explanation for why there are half-elves but not half-dwarves; the rift between elves and humans is so great that a hybrid of them is distinctly different from both, but a half-dwarf is just a tall and brief-lived dwarf, or a short and long-lived human, depending on whether they inherit Darkvision and the racial bonus/penalty.
The other explanation is that humans and dwarves cannot breed.
This seems a lot more likely, given the human propensity for irrational prejudice (half-breeds would be very aware of their situation), and Occam's Razor.

nammertime
Remains Silent
Posts: 1

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by nammertime » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:45 pm

Just passing through as forums aren't really my thing, but I do like to check discussions once in a while. I was wondering if something I thought was confirmed in this thread, but I guess not, or maybe I just missed it by accident.

Here's my take on the keys:

The puzzle says that if you choose the wrong key, 'the mouth will close', and with the right key, 'up you goes'. Also, let's assume there are no other hidden keys, and the right one is actually the one with the eyeball, given the clues. I'd just like to point out that if you take the meaning literally without any other conditions than the ones listed, by choosing all three keys, you could both close the mouth and still go up; Minmax might've just solved the problem the perfect way without knowing it.

User avatar
Wolfie
She Who Admins
She Who Admins
Posts: 3472
UStream Username: Wolfie213
Location: In a handbasket on a bus... and it's hot

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by Wolfie » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:55 pm

That could also mean that he's gonna get squished
"This is my therapy dragon, she's for my panic attacks. I attack, everyone panics." (Quote found on http://outofcontextdnd.tumblr.com/)

"If I have a +2 strength sword and I stab you, you won't get a +2 strength, you get wounds" ~Sir Butcher

"How few there are who have courage enough to own their faults, or resolution enough to mend them." ~Benjamin Franklin

User avatar
AccursedBiscuit
Pipes Up Sometimes
Posts: 162
Location: Yup

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by AccursedBiscuit » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:56 pm

Maybe he could use his other rage, tear/pry open the teeth, or something?
I'm no ordinary biscuit. Just look at my horns.

User avatar
willpell
Banned
Posts: 2085
Contact:

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by willpell » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:00 pm

BuildsLegos wrote:Actually, I'm certain that centuries-long lifespans and darkvision are within our genetic potential; it's just that after putting up with diseases and bad hygiene out in the open for so long has taken its toll.
Interesting. Not that I disagree, being a transhumanist by inclination, but do you have an actual source for that belief, ie research which supports such a conclusion, or is it just wishful thinking? (Which I'm a big fan of, it's just not something to gamble money on.)
shufly wrote:You're probably right on that, I am a bit fuzzy on the details, but the point I was trying to make was in most settings, dwarves can't usually have babies with humans.
Nowhere in any book I've read is it stated that they can't; we just don't know that they can either, so the truth is for each individual DM to decide. In my campaigns, I like to come up with explanations that fit whatever's explicitly stated while addressing those topics which have no canonical answers. I assume that if there was to be a half-dwarf race, it'd be mentioned somewhere, and if half-dwarves were to be impossible, that would be mentioned. So IMO, the best explanation is that there are half-dwarves but they aren't a race, because there's nothing special about them. I've had other explanations in the past...it might just be that one race finds the other universally undesireable (this could go either way; dwarves are strongly inclined to Lawfulness, so maybe there's just never been one tempted by humanity's forbidden fruit), or that dwarves are so tough that a human mother's half-dwarf baby will punch its way out of her uterus and thereby kill itself, while a dwarf mother's immune system will demolish a weak half-human baby before it forms. There are any number of ways that I can explain ambiguities like this.

RocketScientist wrote:
The Silmarillion wrote: "Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the dwarves strong to endure. Therefor they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not forever."
ÔÇò The Silmarillion, "Of Aul├½ and Yavanna"
*sigh* Tolkien.... :shrug: In any event, this doesn't prove anything by my standards, but I have no explanation for why that I can put into words. It's just obvious to me that this is just...well, the closest I can come to getting my thoughts to make sense is to say this is the trope "A Wizard Did It", which is no explanation for anything. If some doofus could wave his hand and make dwarves tough and "fast in friendship and enmity" (what a godawful concept), then some other doofus could wave his hand and make humans exactly the same, or for that matter could make them a species of radioactive blue flamingos. It has nothing to do with the quintessential nature of dwarfness, which is at most fractionally different from the quintessential nature of humanness, while the quintessential nature of elfness is miles away.
This seems a lot more likely, given the human propensity for irrational prejudice (half-breeds would be very aware of their situation), and Occam's Razor.
IMO, Occam's Razor is BS. As for human prejudice, realistically you might have a point, but I prefer to believe that this is only a phenomenon common to our particular human species, having grown up on this planet under these Darwinian conditions, and that the essential nature of what it means to be human doesn't necessarily have to include reflexive xenophobia, nor that it's even a reasonable baseline assumption. I think it's more like an abnormality common to our entire population, but not inevitably present in any other such. But this admittedly might be me wanting to give us more credit than we deserve, on account of me having always preferred idealism to reality.
You either die Chaotic, or you live long enough to see yourself become Lawful.
Glemp wrote:To some extent, you need to be arrogant - without it, you are vulnerable being made someone's tool...for Herbert's sake, have the stubbornness not to submit to what you see instantly, because you can only see some facts at a time.
My long-neglected blog.

User avatar
Borys
Voices Opinions
Posts: 403
Location: Toruń, Poland

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by Borys » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:09 pm

I have just seen this issue. Liked it. I hope it does not mean that Minmax will die. But he would be taken back to life after winning anyway, right?
Complains of Everything in Minelings.
Boro in Call of Ctulhu - Filipstad
Boro in Unhallowed Isle
Boro in Civilization V
Boro in Cavemen

Proud comic(al) player.

In God School as Dies in Battle

My own game! Castle Story Open for everyone!

User avatar
Marnath
Is Heard Often
Posts: 378

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by Marnath » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:05 pm

AccursedBiscuit wrote:Maybe he could use his other rage, tear/pry open the teeth, or something?
It's like 30 feet above him, so I kinda doubt that.

Citizen Joe
Remains Silent
Posts: 1

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by Citizen Joe » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:26 pm

Minmax selected all three keys. It stands to reason that one of them causes him to go up. The spiral on the tower seems like it would spin upwards. While someone would normally get crushed by the closed mouth, Minmax has Oblivious which can cut through anything. So he can just cut through the mouth to safety... meanwhile, the inbound red hats get crushed.

User avatar
Marnath
Is Heard Often
Posts: 378

Re: Mar 9 2013: Minmax' Choice

Post by Marnath » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:01 pm

Citizen Joe wrote:Minmax selected all three keys. It stands to reason that one of them causes him to go up. The spiral on the tower seems like it would spin upwards. While someone would normally get crushed by the closed mouth, Minmax has Oblivious which can cut through anything. So he can just cut through the mouth to safety... meanwhile, the inbound red hats get crushed.
The sword can't cut through anything a normal sword can't. It just can't be moved by anyone else, so it blocks perfectly. Other than that it's not special.

The one key causes the tower to rise, but I'd have to think that the mechanisms behind the other two would counter and over power it.

Post Reply