September 8, 2016: He will speak to me...

[spiderwrangler]

Well, technically the group has a wizard, sorcerer and a bard, but Fumbles is a long ways from getting usable spell levels...

Didn't realize that it used to be a sorcerer spell... in 5e it's wizards and bards only... though you don't have to drink pearl wine anymore.

[Sessine]

if the background of the axe turns out to be untrue, then the DM did in fact lie. It may have been because of a spell or whatever that gives the Paladin wrong information on purpose, but it's a lie nonetheless. Heck, the whole schtick about the axe would in that case be that it's made to pull one over on Paladins. The DM makes/chooses the magic items to use, so yes, they'd be lying.

Identify magic item is a level 2 spell that can be cast by wizards, sorcerers and bards. The group has no wizard, sorcerer or bard. Adding something like that in a game where the players have no option of visiting a mage to get it checked is a dick move. A serious dick move. If you want to use something like that as a DM, you need to make sure the party has the possibility of figuring it out. The goblins didn't get that.

It's a question of what you think the role of a DM should be in relation to the players.

Is it adversarial, with each trying to outwit the other? In that case, sure, the DM put a thumb on the scales here. He cheated. He should have given the players a chance to figure out the Axe ages ago. In an adversarial relationship, if they didn't manage to short-circuit his plans, it should only have been because they played poorly and failed to make full use of the resources he was obliged to give them. In an adversarial relationship, if the DM plays fair, the players' reaction to a big reveal at a dramatic moment can only be slapping their foreheads and exclaiming, "Dammit, why didn't we figure that out long ago?"

But there's another style of play: cooperative. Here, players and DM work together to create and experience a satisfying story. The DM arranges plausible reasons why a big truth doesn't come out until a good, dramatic moment... and the players don't yell, "You cheated!!" because they're not trying to beat the DM. They want the story to be a good one. They are too busy cheering and figuring out how their characters are going to plunge into the next segment of the story thus revealed. In this case, it looks like there's going to be a journey into Hell itself. That's not something they could have dreamed of tackling when Big Ears first encountered the Axe. Even now, it's going to be a really daunting task.

Did the DM lie? All DM's lie -- in the sense that nothing they're telling the players is actually true. The players are lying, too. It's fiction. There isn't a real dragon anywhere. What you're complaining about is the inclusion, in a story, of an artifact that lies... until a certain time, when the lie is uncovered.


As for those who are confused about whether the Axe pages were in-story representations of what Big Ears was told by the Axe, or Thunt himself talking directly to us, the fans... stop and think. At the time when he shared them, was there any way Thunt could even have pointed out that those two might not be exactly the same thing, without dropping a MASSIVE SPOILER about this future major turning point in the comic's story?

There was not. He couldn't say anything!

I suppose he could have just not given us the information at all, but... he clearly wanted us to know what Ears "knew," in more detail than he could possibly explain in the comic itself. He said, this is canon, and indeed it was. He didn't say, this is all true. He did let us assume it was Word Of God true, because Ears believed it, and goodness, would we have wanted to read through all those comic pages since then, screaming at Ears the whole time to WAKE UP, IT'S NOT TRUE!!!!? It would have been a huge spoiler.

[Guus]

It's not about adversorial or co├Âperative. You're trying to create a story and what you've been working on is suddenly useless because of the DM changing an important piece of information. That takes the agency of storytelling away from the players, so even in co├Âperative play it would be dickish. To tell a story you need a framework, and that framework needs to be largely stable. If you are going to do something big as opening up hell in the mortal plane there better be a story behind it other than "this thing you thought was going on turned out different because the information I gave you was wrong".

And of course, the players are lying as well as they are making up a work of fiction. That's kind of comparing apples to oranges though, because the players aren't the one laying the ground rules, the DM is. The players arent capable of pulling one over on the DM, except if they outwit some certain plot. The DM can just cook something up and BAM, it's there. As a player, you need some sense of knowing what you're doing. Would you really say, as a cooperative player, that you'd enjoy the story you've been building with your friends is for a part moot, simply because one person decided to fool you? Iemand, that's a lot of hours and emotional investment going down the drain.

[Byzantine2]

There were clues all along, though. It's what BE picked up on. Kore being cursed has been obvious since we saw him, and was a popular theory even before then. Kore being of the Greyhill Paladins was also known.

The demon deity not having ever entered the plane is obvious, in hindsight, because we were already told the rules about demons crossing over. That it caught all of us off guard is our fault. But it did the same to the characters in the comic because the axe was designed to feel trustworthy. I wouldn't doubt it possesses mind-affecting magic that makes it more difficult for the wielder to question its purpose. It would be a good way to stop a paladin from realizing things don't make sense. And when the axe broke that spell would have as well, freeing BE to realize there were plot holes you could drive a bus through.

Now I don't think all of his conclusions are clear, but I think some of that is just him following the logic through and hoping.

[Sessine]

In cooperative mode, the DM is a full participant in the storytelling. He or she provides an active world full of NPCs, cultures, challenges, events, and revelations. The world is essentially another character, shaping the story along with the players. A good cooperative DM provides room for the players to weave their own stories within an overall framework that contains the the right elements to make the overall story feel satisfying.

What the players have built doesn't suddenly become useless just because the DM springs a planned surprise! On the contrary, it becomes more important than ever, because their story-so-far is their basis for reacting to the surprise in character. "Much that you thought you knew has been turned on its head. What do you do?"

Thing is, Ears did figure it out. He figured it out very quickly. I think Byzantine2 is on to the main reason - when the Axe started to break, that was what made it possible. (Well, that, and the overconfident bragging of the flea demon.)

Is this information that low-level beginning adventurers should have been given? Is the true nature of the Axe, a world-changing artifact, an insight that should be handed to a group for nothing, for the price of a cheap level 2 spell? Why would the information feel important if it was that easy to get? The DM made the players work for it. They had to adventure until they were ready for the challenge. They had to get to a point where they could talk with a demon.

To tell the truth, I don't think they're ready even yet. I think they're still totally overmatched. Level 4 and 5 characters on a mission to Hell?? Even with a few really fancy magic items? But that makes them the underdogs. It's going to be a good story. I want to know what happens.

[Generic]

if the background of the axe turns out to be untrue, then the DM did in fact lie. It may have been because of a spell or whatever that gives the Paladin wrong information on purpose, but it's a lie nonetheless. Heck, the whole schtick about the axe would in that case be that it's made to pull one over on Paladins. The DM makes/chooses the magic items to use, so yes, they'd be lying.

Identify magic item is a level 2 spell that can be cast by wizards, sorcerers and bards. The group has no wizard, sorcerer or bard. Adding something like that in a game where the players have no option of visiting a mage to get it checked is a dick move. A serious dick move. If you want to use something like that as a DM, you need to make sure the party has the possibility of figuring it out. The goblins didn't get that.

It's a question of what you think the role of a DM should be in relation to the players.

Is it adversarial, with each trying to outwit the other? In that case, sure, the DM put a thumb on the scales here. He cheated. He should have given the players a chance to figure out the Axe ages ago. In an adversarial relationship, if they didn't manage to short-circuit his plans, it should only have been because they played poorly and failed to make full use of the resources he was obliged to give them. In an adversarial relationship, if the DM plays fair, the players' reaction to a big reveal at a dramatic moment can only be slapping their foreheads and exclaiming, "Dammit, why didn't we figure that out long ago?"

But there's another style of play: cooperative. Here, players and DM work together to create and experience a satisfying story. The DM arranges plausible reasons why a big truth doesn't come out until a good, dramatic moment... and the players don't yell, "You cheated!!" because they're not trying to beat the DM. They want the story to be a good one. They are too busy cheering and figuring out how their characters are going to plunge into the next segment of the story thus revealed. In this case, it looks like there's going to be a journey into Hell itself. That's not something they could have dreamed of tackling when Big Ears first encountered the Axe. Even now, it's going to be a really daunting task.

Did the DM lie? All DM's lie -- in the sense that nothing they're telling the players is actually true. The players are lying, too. It's fiction. There isn't a real dragon anywhere. What you're complaining about is the inclusion, in a story, of an artifact that lies... until a certain time, when the lie is uncovered.


As for those who are confused about whether the Axe pages were in-story representations of what Big Ears was told by the Axe, or Thunt himself talking directly to us, the fans... stop and think. At the time when he shared them, was there any way Thunt could even have pointed out that those two might not be exactly the same thing, without dropping a MASSIVE SPOILER about this future major turning point in the comic's story?

There was not. He couldn't say anything!

I suppose he could have just not given us the information at all, but... he clearly wanted us to know what Ears "knew," in more detail than he could possibly explain in the comic itself. He said, this is canon, and indeed it was. He didn't say, this is all true. He did let us assume it was Word Of God true, because Ears believed it, and goodness, would we have wanted to read through all those comic pages since then, screaming at Ears the whole time to WAKE UP, IT'S NOT TRUE!!!!? It would have been a huge spoiler.

Or the demon is lying

[thinkslogically]

Personally, I think that considering "storytellling" as a lie doesn't get us anywhere at all. There's a difference betweenn telling a lie and spinning a story of fiction. I also don't think it helps to keep thinking of this comic as purely a d&d game. It's clearly not. The "players" have no agency (and don't need any) because they don't exist. The PCs aren't even subject to dice rolls. Those sorts of mechanics are only for flavor and thunt is entirely in control of everything, way more than a decent real dm would try to be.

To say that something is "unfair" for a player is a poor argument for this comic because there are no players. Thunt can screw over the pcs as much as he likes or turn them into gods. All that matters is whether he can tell us a decent story or not really.

[Guus]

I agree. Honestly, viewing it as a D&D game is kind of a defence mechanism from my part. I just think this part of the story is incredibly weak and unconvincing, with it being contrived as the least of its problems. I'm just hoping it's going somewhere else than what appears to he the case. How is anything that mattered to the characters up to this point still going to matter now? Hell is coming in, for the characters out of nowhere, because even BE didn't see it coming.

It's like watching a crime series where the detectives catch a bad guy, he confesses, everything is wrapped up, and while they are working a case the guy just escapes off screen and burns down the bureau. It could've worked if there were some shots of the bad guy escaping, or the detectives being notified of it happening in the process, but for it to come out of the blue doesn't make for a very good story. I'm hoping the next few pages come with a good explanation, so that the build-up gets redeemed at least.

[ForgetsOldName]

1. It's perfectly normal for a DM to have a character (sentient artifact) lie to a player character in the course of a game, and it's perfectly normal for a player to fall into the trap. It's not word of god unless the DM steps out of character, which he did not. The fairness is a matter of whether the DM provides enough clues for the characters to find the "out" before its too late, or if they miss it entirely, to handle the mess that follows. I'm not sure what will follow, but I strongly suspect it won't be the demon taking over the world and transforming it into a hell plane.

2. Herbert is a bad DM.

[Davis8488]

Also worth noting, "fair" is almost an ugly word in the story. "There's a special place in Hell for people who complain about the rules." Think about the second version of the drow party; they encounter a type of creature that was shown before to be moderately dangerous, and weakened by blood. When tried to fight it this time, blood turned it into a hellbeast that tore through their party. All the information they had could only have led to a total party kill, against what to them was a random encounter that literally dropped out of the sky for reasons ot which they are entirely ignorant.

Compared to that, Herbert was fairly nice to Ears. Sure, he tricked him, but at least Ears knew there was a demon in the Ax, and could have been planning a permenant solution, rather than assuming that a low level paladin was suited to bear the prison for a near deity level demon.

[Guus]

That's just grasping at straws. In a story there's a difference between minor characters and the protagonists.

Still, what happens to the protagonists doesn't need to be fair, but it needs to have a build-up. What makes this particular scene extra frustrating for me is that the actual build-up we did get turns out to have a decent chance of being untrue. Either what we got as information before didn't help move the plot forward, or what we get now doesn't. Both are unsatisfactory. Plot twists need to have a function, not be dumped on your head like this. Not because I want to tell people that they can't tell the story they want, but because there are certain things to keep in mind if you want to have an engaging story.

I was emotionally invested in the Goblins, this dungeon crawl chapter is killing it. Which is fine, maybe the style of storytelling simply isn't my thing, and I'll see how things develop this chapter. If the story continues to develop like it does, with the characters being little more than blank slates for dialogue (except BE, who's just getting screwed over big time) and plot contrivences, I'll be done with the story. I just want the Brassmoon scenes back, where the characters made sense and the story was a direct result of what the goblins were doing.

[Sessine]

Oh. I think I see what you're saying, then. You feel that, recently, the characters have lacked agency. Things have happened TO them, rather than BECAUSE OF them. That's a valid criticism. I'm not sure what you were expecting, though, when you thought the Axe pages were gospel truth, to make you disappointed now that it's not going to happen. I'm actually pleased by this page because it seems to mark the end of them being buffeted by events they can't control. Yes, the world is falling apart -- but Ears now has a declared purpose, and it's a biggie.

The rest of the GAP will go along because it's Ears. Also because, well, this is probably the only hope to avoid having their plane become an annex to Hell, so... um, yeah.

The dungeon crawl section did kind of feel, while we were going through it, like it dragged on forever, but looking back, that wasn't the story's fault. External circumstances (we know what they were), caused the pages to be doled out to us very, very slowly. The section has been a long time unfolding in real time, but if you re-read and count, it's only been 43 pages. Not much story-space to merge the goblin party and MinMax from mortal enemies into a group that can, even marginally, fight together. They also got some magic items they're going to need.

And, yeah. Maybe there was too much time spent on random weird dungeon rooms... but we won't know for years whether they were really random. Maybe there's a reason for the place to be exactly like this, which we'll find out later. Or, maybe it was as simple as, "The characters need to adventure together for a bit. Hmm, what would be fun to draw?"

[Krulle]

That's the whole issue with webcomics often.
You get plenty of time to discuss and get irritated over details while waiting for the next page.
With a normal comic you may dislike the development, but shrug and continue reading to see if it really plays out that bad. No time for the irritation to nag itself deep into you.
If the story takes another turn and all is well explained, a webcomic may still have left the irateness which dug into you. With a paper comic it's easier to shrug remaining irateness off.

[thinkslogically]

I think there's an element of that krulle, but I also agree with guus here. It feels like the comic's throwing too much at us all at once and the information is coming out of nowhere. The axe breaking could have been hinted at before it happened. Perhaps something weird could have been noticed during the kore fight, or the demon encounter could have triggered a warning to BE that demon-fighting is a bad idea. Maybe he could have felt an emotional surge thru the axe as the demon god spotted an opportunity, that kind of thing.

The best stories with "twist" endings make it obvious that the twist is coming, but in a way that only makes complete sense when you add the last puzzle piece (think fight club, the usual suspects, that kind of thing). They don't drop the whole surprise on you out of nowhere and that's what feels rushed about this sequence in the dungeon for me. We should have been able to see this coming and be face-palming at the party for not putting it together sooner. It shouldn't just be a surprise info dump IMO.

[Rooks]

I think there's an element of that krulle, but I also agree with guus here. It feels like the comic's throwing too much at us all at once and the information is coming out of nowhere. The axe breaking could have been hinted at before it happened. Perhaps something weird could have been noticed during the kore fight, or the demon encounter could have triggered a warning to BE that demon-fighting is a bad idea. Maybe he could have felt an emotional surge thru the axe as the demon god spotted an opportunity, that kind of thing.

The best stories with "twist" endings make it obvious that the twist is coming, but in a way that only makes complete sense when you add the last puzzle piece (think fight club, the usual suspects, that kind of thing). They don't drop the whole surprise on you out of nowhere and that's what feels rushed about this sequence in the dungeon for me. We should have been able to see this coming and be face-palming at the party for not putting it together sooner. It shouldn't just be a surprise info dump IMO.

I don't know. I feel like I've had moments in D&D campaigns where you are all sitting around the table cracking jokes while the DM is trying his best to maintain character while giving his a big speech that he's planned, then suddenly something the DM says clicks with you and you start to fill in the details. I guess to me the whole fact that the world needs to be hell in order for the deity to enter, yet isn't hell was this giant clue that no one ever picked up on. I can picture myself as a character pouring over my notes about the axe while this conversation was happening, and suddenly having that "AHA!" moment. And just because BE is saying this doesn't mean it's suddenly lore. It's his character's best guess based on suddenly realizing there is a discrepancy in the backstory.

[RocketScientist]

I guess to me the whole fact that the world needs to be hell in order for the deity to enter, yet isn't hell was this giant clue that no one ever picked up on.

Did we actually know that before flea demon said it? I didn't know that. Did I miss/forget some exposition? Is it a D&D rule I don't know? If not, then this whole plot development relies on having information I didn't have. Plus BE treated the info from the axe like it was Word of Gods all this time. Now that's it's probably not, it feels like the plot just said, Psych! HAHAHA!" Which, yeah. Not my favorite.

[Guus]

If there was, I don't know about it.

And no, it's not some D&D rule. D&D has ready made adventures as well as a whole world full of lore that the DM can use for the story. For most people I know the lore is used as inspiration. The actual rules are the framework to keep the game as fair as possible, and have very little to do with the actual storybuilding. How to craft a story however has some guidelines the DM should keep in mind, for the benefit of having fun.

Having fun is the ultimate rule in D&D. 3.5 lends itself for dungeon crawls, where you try to get as far as possible without dying, but also for grand narrative storytelling, which Goblins is. Well, Goblins is actually a combination of the two. The players and the DM are playing against eachother and together at the same time. An important part of DMing is challenging the players in a way that they feel the danger their characters are in, without creating a total party kill. Another part is engaging the players in a story: make them feel like they make a difference, and that what they are doing actively affects the world around them. They need to feel that what they do, in the world they play in, matters. That means constantly throwing your plans in the bin, or putting them in place somewhere else. In the case of the axe I'd have opted to not use that plot point yet, or having it take place in the Kore confrontation, after some remarks about what is happening to the axe. Repeatedly draw attention to the item so the players know something big is going on with it.

Now, players come in all kind of flavors, and they are drawn to different play styles. But in general the rule in a grand narrative stands, where you need to give the players an idea of agency. So yes, in that sense Sessine, I'm frustrated about how they lack agency. But that would be fine, if it was embedded in the story in a way that didn't feel so random and out of the blue. If the lack of control and agency of the characters was based in a situation we as readers could follow, that would've been fine in my book. To me, however, it doesn't.

[Rooks]

I guess to me the whole fact that the world needs to be hell in order for the deity to enter, yet isn't hell was this giant clue that no one ever picked up on.

Did we actually know that before flea demon said it? I didn't know that. Did I miss/forget some exposition? Is it a D&D rule I don't know? If not, then this whole plot development relies on having information I didn't have. Plus BE treated the info from the axe like it was Word of Gods all this time. Now that's it's probably not, it feels like the plot just said, Psych! HAHAHA!" Which, yeah. Not my favorite.

Good call. I thought that was in the Axe comic, but I went back and read it again. Definitely NOT in there. My mistake.

[RocketScientist]

Ok, thanks. I thought maybe it was somewhere else, and I just missed it.

[Davis8488]

I feel like Ears said that the realm had to become Hell before the flea demon emerged, but I don't know where he learned that.

[Guus]

http://www.goblinscomic.org/comics/20160813.jpg

That's the first time he's mentioned it I believe. It was pretty out of the blue.
I might be wrong though, I just skimmed the archives again and may have skipped the part where he said it before. If someone happens to know where (if he did) BE said something along those lines I'd be happy to see it quoted.


...Is the new page ever going to come? Kind of a sucky moment for a break