17 June 2016: Good and Evil

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17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Krulle » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:47 am

Permalink: http://www.goblinscomic.org/06242016-2/ (edited after shadig)

Does Big Ears really believe he is evil, and the Axe weakens through that? Then the Axe would actually be powered by confidence (and not by good/evil). Confidence in being a good guy.
Maybe Kore is on his way to get the Axe as he knows the magic used was faulty, and he is trying to get the Axe to repair this magical fault.

And BE is doubting himself very much, and trying to find explanations why his actions were evil. But by attacking Kore from behind he DID save innocent other Goblins. That was good. But he does not balance that himself, he now needs his friends to convince him that he did many GOOD deeds right then.
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BTW: did anyone notice that this image has a much higher quality setting / is larger than the usual images published? It's nice to have, seeing that there are many details and small prints on this page.
@[color=red]Thunt[/color]_[color=Green]Goblins[/color] wrote:Also, the countdown cracks still need to be added to the bottom/right corner. That'll happen with the shading.
Last edited by Krulle on Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Morgaln » Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:35 am

Established lore says, if the axe is close to breaking it exudes a powerful aura of evil. The last time that happened it had a debilitating effect on Ears. We haven't seen any of that, so attacking Kore from behind did not weaken the axe to that point. Ears is wrong about what caused this. I wonder if we'll ever get an explanation of what really happened.

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Insane Kitty » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:31 am

Is it me, or does that tree like thing in the top right panel look like a bunch of hands that might reach out and grab the party? Also the base of it looks like it has an eye. ThacO might be the only one who will be able to warn them as he is looking up at it and studying it.
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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by GathersIngredients » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:58 am

@Insane Kitty: nope, the tree does very awesomely look like a bunch of hands, to me, too.

I really enjoy the "definition" of good and evil there. But what about self-defense? I mean that other group was charging them, I think, so naturally BE fought back. Trying to protect one-self from harm can't be evil, can it?

And again, I can't help to think that maybe the dooooooooor golem did something with the axe. Or there is something else we don't know yet/are not considering.


Also, I'm kinda confused. How did they get to be where they are now. Which way did they go, to get to this door?
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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Rndom » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:35 am

they went through the door they were originally going to try to sneak past the demons to. Explicitly shown in http://www.goblinscomic.org/03132016-2/

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:02 am

A very lame reason for the axe to break yay. Attacking from behind is choatic at best, not evil, and espessially not to someone that tries to kill you and you are defending yourself. That is by far the lamest excuse for axe to break.

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Wolfie » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:08 am

Someone posited in a previous thread that Fumbles'/Vorpal's new staff has anti-magic properties and could be the cause of the axe breaking, since the Future-Copies take on the characteristics of those they're portraying.

Ergo, Ears' wasn't the cause of the Axe breaking; the staff was.
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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:17 am

Yes becauase an artifact carring a demon would be easy to break with a dispell magic, it is a wonder it did not break a long time ago.

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Wolfie » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:20 am

We don't know how long that staff has been here, and it's entirely possible.
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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:32 am

Been there long enough to not help it's previous owner. Time does not make the artifact, the special nature of artifacts make them. A dispell staff is not artifact level.

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by YardMeat » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:27 am

On the one hand, I'm holding out hope that BE is wrong and that Thunt has a better explanation for why the Axe broke. On the other hand, Thunt did say that everything would be explained soon, so this looks like it might be it :(

I can maybe understand BE's actions being a little unpaladin-like, but the Axe isn't fueled by a paladin's code. The Axe is strengthened by good and damaged by evil, and it is an extreme stretch to call BE's actions evil, much less more evil than any previous owner of the Axe. And yes, it has been established that the Axe exudes a powerful evil aura when weakened, so powerful that it triggers a paladin's detect evil ability without him consciously activating it, and powerful enough to give him splitting headaches and (if I recall correctly) a nosebleed. That didn't happen this. And if his actions were so evil . . . how is he still a paladin? How can an action be so evil that it breaks the Axe (an Axe that has survived more blatantly evil people), but not evil enough for BE to lose his paladinhood?

The representation of BE as a paladin has been what I love most about this comic. I'm so tired of DMs that come up with convoluted rules and contrived situations to make paladins unplayable, and here was a story that was the opposite of all of that. But if BE is right, all of that was undone when he got the Axe.

I still have a little bit of hope, though. If the most recent comic is just BE's overwhelming self-doubt, and there will be a better explanation later, that'd make for pretty good storytelling. If not . . . I just don't know. Goblins has been my favorite comic, and I'd hate for something like that to happen to it.

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by CocoaNutCakery » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:19 am

I really like Big Ears' explanation of the difference between good and evil, here. It's a lesson so many need to learn and I can think of a number of people that I've met--and a few that I only know through their work, such as comics--that have been the victims of this very evil. Disturbingly, I've heard and read people praising this very evil as good. And it's utterly horrifying how many people nod and accept this as good and right.
YardMeat wrote:The representation of BE as a paladin has been what I love most about this comic. I'm so tired of DMs that come up with convoluted rules and contrived situations to make paladins unplayable, and here was a story that was the opposite of all of that. But if BE is right, all of that was undone when he got the Axe.
Being a paladin is supposed to be hard. Paladins are meant to be the paragons of good and justice. If you're anywhere near the average (even just above average), then you're doing it wrong. If you're compromising because things are hard, then you're doing it wrong. Take the best person you know and that person probably is not good enough for paladinhood. The Axe of Prissan requires even more than that. The wielder of the Axe of Prissan is to the average paladin as the average paladin is to the average person.

I find the explanation to be fitting. Certainly this was not the only solution to the fight with Kore.
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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by sunphoenix » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:20 am

I do believe Ears has hit upon the means to defeat Kore.. just now. Running from him is not the answer.. Ears needs to confront him.. and declare his allegiance to the cause of righteousness as a fellow paladin and side with Kore in his determination to destroy that which is evil. Then tell him in no uncertain terms that the goblins he is pursuing are NOT evil are not aligned with evil and seek the same goal, but not to take his word for ..but detect for evil upon them all to verify that declaration.

If Kore refuses he is acting in clear violation to discerning the worthiness of killing the goblins when clear declaration has been made that his assumptions are incorrect!

I've played D&D and now Pathfinder for years and run many successful campaigns.. confronted with such a declaration if any paladin I would DM choose to ignore such a request and attack in the face of such.. I'd strip him of his paladinhood so fast his head would spin!!!

I play personally a lot of paladins.. my favorite class actually.. and I'm always amused by how other players are so perplexed as to why my paladin is so merciful and willing to trust that, "Truth as his shield"! Never being willing to attack without knowing combat is the only way to resolve an issue, always willing to talk to even the most evil foes to try to convince them to turn away from their wicked ways, before resulting to violence.. and then only fight to vanquish and not kill them! Its not easy being a paladin.. not by a long-shot sometimes you have to risk extending the hand of mercy and peace to find the right path!
Last edited by sunphoenix on Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by lurker » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:24 am

the frame is not breaking.

That's what I noticed the most about this update.

And yeah, the tree looks like it is reaching out to grab minmax

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by miados » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:46 am

lurker wrote:the frame is not breaking.

That's what I noticed the most about this update.

And yeah, the tree looks like it is reaching out to grab minmax
thunk forgot and updated that last time. it is likely the same thing.

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Wolfie » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:57 am

Arch Lich Burns wrote:Been there long enough to not help it's previous owner. Time does not make the artifact, the special nature of artifacts make them. A dispell staff is not artifact level.
I never said it was an artifact. I said it could be possible to dispel the magic on the Axe due to the staff. Plus, we have no idea if the staff is an artifact or not. There's not exactly a tag on it proclaiming all its magical properties and previous ownership. THunt has ways of putting little tidbits into the comic to help explain things that come later, if you (meaning the reader) take time to pay attention. There's a thread for AHA! moments like that IIRC.

Anyways, in that room, even someone with an anti-magic staff would have been hardpressed to win with just the staff. If you drop it when you get entangled, it doesn't help you on the ground.

@Yardmeat: I too love THunt's portrayal of BE as a paladin. It's a nice change from the stick in the mud common player of the class. That he feels so guilty over the Axe breaking, despite doing his best, and keeps going over his past mistakes, means he's trying to learn from his mistakes and trying to figure out how to fix it.

@Sunphoenix: That's an interesting theory for how to beat Kore. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it'll work, since he's apparently long past the point where he should have been stripped or lost his paladinhood, according to THuntonian lore.

@lurker: THunt tweeted that he's going to add the breaking frame/countdown.
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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Morgaln » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:22 am

CocoaNutCakery wrote:I really like Big Ears' explanation of the difference between good and evil, here. It's a lesson so many need to learn and I can think of a number of people that I've met--and a few that I only know through their work, such as comics--that have been the victims of this very evil. Disturbingly, I've heard and read people praising this very evil as good. And it's utterly horrifying how many people nod and accept this as good and right.
YardMeat wrote:The representation of BE as a paladin has been what I love most about this comic. I'm so tired of DMs that come up with convoluted rules and contrived situations to make paladins unplayable, and here was a story that was the opposite of all of that. But if BE is right, all of that was undone when he got the Axe.
Being a paladin is supposed to be hard. Paladins are meant to be the paragons of good and justice. If you're anywhere near the average (even just above average), then you're doing it wrong. If you're compromising because things are hard, then you're doing it wrong. Take the best person you know and that person probably is not good enough for paladinhood. The Axe of Prissan requires even more than that. The wielder of the Axe of Prissan is to the average paladin as the average paladin is to the average person.

I find the explanation to be fitting. Certainly this was not the only solution to the fight with Kore.
If the axe is so susceptible to even unintentionally evil deeds that it breaks from things that don't even make a paladin fall, why did they even make it? Why not imprison the demon into, I don't know, a broom? An ashtray? A garden gnome? Anything but a weapon? Because that's the most likely thing to be taken from someone and used for evil directly. And I seriously doubt it needs to be a weapon to be infused with good, because I'm hard pressed to accept attacking anyone (much less killing them) as a selflessly good deed. So the good that kept the axe from breaking had to come from other actions anyway.

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by miados » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:29 am

To be fair about what is or isn't enough to hard the axe and keep the demon inside how serious a grievance is is not up to us. what decides how bad a choice is for that is up to the god/s that were used to create it through the paladins/clerics. And since this is a game of d and d and not its own separate world to a greater extent it is up to the dm to determine what the god/s would think both good v evil and the level of strictness.

Plus while i know we are talking about fumbles and his pally levels, at least some of us are, he also has priest/cleric levels which is also holy. Well partial levels.

I know we can speculate and wonder and such but in the end since this is a comic based on another world that is fully controlled by a dungeon master then we have to accept the fact that while thunt may have logic behind everything that he does he also is treating it like a d and d game not purely its own world. Take the maze of many. I could picture the dm telling the players about the count up device to motivate/show them how hard this dungeon is.

So while some things may seem strict to us think about the world they are playing in so far. Think of the torture of the monsters that has been experienced. Think of kore being a pally even though he is how he is. This world is harsh and chaotic. You can't expect the gods (i guess the dungeon master is counted do to forgaths worship) to do things based on our level of logic. I mean kore only seemed to know about the axe after it went through him (if i remember correctly) which is something that gives its fully history to any paladin that comes in contact with it that does show that at least in the worlds/gods mind kore is a paladin and based on how the game works i believe means that at least by the standards of the god he worships he is good. The problem is we don't know what god he worships so we can't judge his actions based on the good vs evil in the same way as the one that gives him his holy powers does.

http://www.goblinscomic.org/08122007/

So based on the lore of the axe itself kore no matter his actions is a pally based on the rules of the god he worships at the least and verified by the dungeon master as such.

He knows the lore and history of it instantly.

The axe gains power from courage and valor. or if you prefer the demon is weakened by those things.

So we must conclude it is weakened by the opposite.

Big ears in the latest page says that he attacked kore from behind which is usually seen as the action of a coward. He is a verified pally from the rules of the world as not only did the weapon pass through kore but he learned about it instantly.

Big ears in a sense cheated the rules in order to cause harm to Kore. Something that is dirty and cowardly tactics depending on who you are talking to/with.

He attacked a pally even if it was kore as determined by the gods/dm and no matter our opinions is a fact.

Then when it finally broke it was when he attacked one of his friends. Not only that the only friend in the party who had levels (albiet partial) in pally as well. Also in cleric which were the two classes that took down the demon to seal it and are both considered holy. So he not only attacked one of his friends who has just started to recover from a huge torturous event, but also had levels in two holy classes.

While we might not agree with it it is up to the dm in the end to determine the gods actions and how severe the actions taken by the axe user are in terms of weakening it and or powering up the demon inside.

Sorry for the ramble but yeah.

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:28 am

sunphoenix wrote:I do believe Ears has hit upon the means to defeat Kore.. just now. Running from him is not the answer.. Ears needs to confront him.. and declare his allegiance to the cause of righteousness as a fellow paladin and side with Kore in his determination to destroy that which is evil. Then tell him in no uncertain terms that the goblins he is pursuing are NOT evil are not aligned with evil and seek the same goal, but not to take his word for ..but detect for evil upon them all to verify that declaration.

If Kore refuses he is acting in clear violation to discerning the worthiness of killing the goblins when clear declaration has been made that his assumptions are incorrect!

I've played D&D and now Pathfinder for years and run many successful campaigns.. confronted with such a declaration if any paladin I would DM choose to ignore such a request and attack in the face of such.. I'd strip him of his paladinhood so fast his head would spin!!!

I play personally a lot of paladins.. my favorite class actually.. and I'm always amused by how other players are so perplexed as to why my paladin is so merciful and willing to trust that, "Truth as his shield"! Never being willing to attack without knowing combat is the only way to resolve an issue, always willing to talk to even the most evil foes to try to convince them to turn away from their wicked ways, before resulting to violence.. and then only fight to vanquish and not kill them! Its not easy being a paladin.. not by a long-shot sometimes you have to risk extending the hand of mercy and peace to find the right path!
And how can one know he is a paladin for sure? He can easily be a blackguard. Detect evil is not something to rely upon all the time for there are items that make you seem non evil. Making a person loose paladinhood because he is not sure the merit in another person is a terrible idea. They could easily be lying, and I know detect lies is sometimes a crapshoot as well.

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by RocketScientist » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:24 am

Arch Lich Burns wrote:And how can one know he is a paladin for sure? He can easily be a blackguard.
The axe only passes through paladins.
YardMeat wrote:On the one hand, I'm holding out hope that BE is wrong and that Thunt has a better explanation for why the Axe broke. On the other hand, Thunt did say that everything would be explained soon, so this looks like it might be it :(

I can maybe understand BE's actions being a little unpaladin-like, but the Axe isn't fueled by a paladin's code. The Axe is strengthened by good and damaged by evil, and it is an extreme stretch to call BE's actions evil, much less more evil than any previous owner of the Axe. And yes, it has been established that the Axe exudes a powerful evil aura when weakened, so powerful that it triggers a paladin's detect evil ability without him consciously activating it, and powerful enough to give him splitting headaches and (if I recall correctly) a nosebleed. That didn't happen this. And if his actions were so evil . . . how is he still a paladin? How can an action be so evil that it breaks the Axe (an Axe that has survived more blatantly evil people), but not evil enough for BE to lose his paladinhood?

The representation of BE as a paladin has been what I love most about this comic. I'm so tired of DMs that come up with convoluted rules and contrived situations to make paladins unplayable, and here was a story that was the opposite of all of that. But if BE is right, all of that was undone when he got the Axe.

I still have a little bit of hope, though. If the most recent comic is just BE's overwhelming self-doubt, and there will be a better explanation later, that'd make for pretty good storytelling. If not . . . I just don't know. Goblins has been my favorite comic, and I'd hate for something like that to happen to it.
I agree with most of this. I expect I was making the same face Complains is when Ears was making his speech-of-self-flagellation. I feel like I wouldn't have put a world ending demon inside a prison that can be accidentally broken by a paladin who makes a marginally poor judgment call or two. Then again, I'm not lawful good myself, and would fail as a paladin, so :shrug:

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Paladin » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:03 am

Well, hello !

I've been silently reading the comic for years .. and I am a huge fan (keep up the good work \o/)
I registered because I though that maybe the axe broke because ..
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Well, just a theory.. have a nice day, all

Edit: now that I think about it ..
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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Baphomet » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:18 am

If I was in this campaign and this happened to me or another player at the table, I would be very angry with the DM. BE detected evil in the golems, and still didn't want to fight them. They attacked him, and he fought back in self-defense. Attacking non-hostile creatures that detect as evil would be bad, because evil can still be innocent, or there could be some trickery involved. Attacking hostile creatures that don't detect as evil could be bad, depending on what made them hostile in the first place. But in this case, he (thinks he) knows that they are evil, and they are attacking, and they seemed unwilling or unable to communicate. That seems like a green light. He took reasonable precautions given the circumstances, and the fact that he came to the wrong conclusion is tragic, but not evil. What else was he supposed to do?

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Alakallanar » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:43 am

If unknowingly attacking a 1/11 paladin that identifies as (overwhelming) evil in self-defense and "attacking" a "pseudo-paladin" from behind in self-defense is enough to break the axe, than the axe should have broken a couple dozen times while in Saral Caines possession. Especially since it was already close to breaking before he attacked Ears (a paladin) with it.

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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Krulle » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:39 pm

miados wrote:
lurker wrote:the frame is not breaking.

That's what I noticed the most about this update.

And yeah, the tree looks like it is reaching out to grab minmax
thunk forgot and updated that last time. it is likely the same thing.
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Re: 17 June 2016: Good and Evil

Post by Gift Fastidious » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:53 pm

I'm fairly certain that wether it was Big Ears's fault or not, he seems prone to findning himself at fault when circumstances could otherwise be blamed.

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