May 26, 2016: Noticing What's in Your Food

[Shardstorm]

Permalink: http://www.goblinscomic.org/05262016-2/

Some great lines in this, and really interesting to see what this set of demons look like. Since the mechanic here was reveled I was keen to see what they would get attacked by. Next panel the explosion, the panel after they work it out? Unless they break the loop, which I doubt.

Also. Thunt confirmed he'll add the reality cracking in the shaded version:

[Alarikun]

Since the mechanic here was reveled

Where was the mechanic revealed? And what was it? I know people were theorizing it was the GAP+MM from the future, demonized... was this confirmed or something?

[Spaghetti]

At first this room really weirded me out, but now that I see the other side, it makes a lot more sense. These new guys look a lot better; their eyes and faces are less malicious and they have more 'good' weapons: swords, maces, hammers, and one guy with a flaming white sword. The first group had more brutal looking weapons and claws and were more outright demonic, while the new group is really funny looking, but less like the demons we've seen before.

I'm guessing that the room is designed to strongly oppose whatever group comes in. When the Axe of Prissan broke, and our goblin started transforming into a demon, something about that release of evil made the monsters recognize them as evil, meaning they had to fight the good-aligned monsters. Kore would probably have to deal with the same sort of enemies.

I was thinking about comment people made about the demons looking like our group, but with the new monsters it doesn't make sense. I think they're just using some similar weapons because those weapons are just good. Not every swordsman is a foil to another, you know?

[Sessine]

That's a great line MM uses in panel five. What monster is he talking about?

I don't recall anything in the Maze of Many that was:
- really big
- actually killed by MM
- might believably eat a goblin just by accident.

So, earlier? Perhaps this?
http://www.goblinscomic.org/10072005/

Well, that one was more, "I was rescued from a monster that..."

But hey, two out of three ain't bad.

[Talos]

Well, now Names is basically wearing a loincloth, much like Thaco was earlier on. Like, a decade ago in real life. That's like, a few days or a week ago in the comic, but you get the idea. I'd say he was turning into his father, but he's really more like a demon now, so I can't really say that.

[taran47]

For reference compare the bottom 2 panels of this page http://www.goblinscomic.org/03302016-2/
with the current one.

As to why this group looks different compared to how the room made their time altered selves appear on the other side I think that's a really clever touch to the illusion / trap of these rooms.

[Punzil504]

The question now is going to be about how many panels are used to recreate the last fight with the switched sides.

Fumbles and Names will both get their revenge on each other's counterpart. Purple Ears is going to take a swipe at Fumbles and likely blow up the axe... since Green Ears never engaged any of the others in the last battle, Big Ears is going to be looking on and thinking "This is awfully familiar..."

[bobagorof]

For reference compare the bottom 2 panels of this page http://www.goblinscomic.org/03302016-2/
with the current one.

As to why this group looks different compared to how the room made their time altered selves appear on the other side I think that's a really clever touch to the illusion / trap of these rooms.

Yeah, I noticed that the guys they're fighting now are taking the poses exactly as the GAP+MM took when they fought the first time - and the GAP+MM are taking the poses of the guys they fought last time.

I missed any previous discussion but I suspected they were fighting themselves. I think they'll twig when one of the 'demons' has their weapon explode.

[Achaedus]

I hereby call dibs on the status of 'guy who started calling the red critter 'buttface''.

Don't tell me you don't see it.

[Swiftbow]

It really needs to be pointed out that Complains knees aren't inverted. They're still there, at the bottom of his thighs, bending the normal way. His ankles have been lengthened and he's now standing on his toes, much like many animals do. Thus, the "inverted knee" is actually his ankle, just like on a horse.

[Shardstorm]

Since the mechanic here was revealed

Where was the mechanic revealed? And what was it? I know people were theorizing it was the GAP+MM from the future, demonized... was this confirmed or something?

In my view enough of the panels have been repeated at this point that we can confidently same it's a time and illusion effect. The deliberate reuse of poses from previous panels with GAP+MM in the place of the demons is consistent. Unless it's all a HUGE misdirect, which it might well be.

[hirou]

I just had to remember my login and pass here just to say that this one is awesome. And we totally should have seen it coming, and at least I totally did not.

[Krulle]

This room will be perfect to get rid of Kore.
Since Kore never breaks fighting contact with the evil he has set his mind on to destroy, and he takes every target he can get and will follow it down until he got it succssfully, he can only survive this room(s) if he _knows_ the room mechanics.

[Guus]

Honestly I don't know why there is a discussion about this page at all. It has already been thoroughly discussed in the previous pages when they fought their future selves that were apparently evil but not evil, and frankly, it's downright stupid. Man am I glad that I'm not a player in this dungeon crawl, I'd seriously consider smacking the DM over the head.

Sure, it's not actually a given that the goblins are PC's (besides themselves explicitely stating that), but the universe and/or DM ruling in this particular instance is horrible. Bye bye free will, hello train tracks.

[RocketScientist]

I don't think it's railroading, even if the Goblins are characters with players sitting around Herbert's table.

DM: You see five demon-looking beings standing around having a conversation. A big one and four smaller ones.
Party: We try to sneak by.
Minmax: I'm going to pull out my sword, just in case.
DM remembers/check notes about the last time Minmax let go of his sword.
DM: Past Minmax yells that he hates future Minmax.
DM: Demons turn and move toward you.
Minmax: I jump over the wall and attack!
Ears: I attack the yellow one!
DM: Axe explodes.
DM: Demons turn and point toward door.

Just because we can see that the green demon axe was cracked doesn't mean that the DM described it. Remember, he's not been described as a particularly good DM. The players are really condescending toward him. If Thunt makes him suddenly a fantastic, extremely descriptive DM, it's out of character.

[miados]

not sure why i noticed this but in the most recent one you can see both of our beloved fumbles arms but the yellow demon one you only see one. I have no clue why i noticed that or why it is bothering me because now i keep wondering if it is important.

edit: also no demon stain or whatever it is on the bottom right hand side...... or anywhere i notice.

[Sessine]

not sure why i noticed this but in the most recent one you can see both of our beloved fumbles arms but the yellow demon one you only see one. I have no clue why i noticed that or why it is bothering me because now i keep wondering if it is important.

edit: also no demon stain or whatever it is on the bottom right hand side...... or anywhere i notice.

We can't get our hopes up over the absence of world-crumbling; Thunt said on twitter that he'd just forgotten it and would be adding it in when he did the shading.

Your other point though... the parallels are SO close that I'd say any minor deviation is worth noting.

[Krulle]

edit: also no demon stain or whatever it is on the bottom right hand side...... or anywhere i notice.

See also Opening Post [OP] of this thread.

[Morgaln]

I don't think it's railroading, even if the Goblins are characters with players sitting around Herbert's table.

DM: You see five demon-looking beings standing around having a conversation. A big one and four smaller ones.
Party: We try to sneak by.
Minmax: I'm going to pull out my sword, just in case.
DM remembers/check notes about the last time Minmax let go of his sword.
DM: Past Minmax yells that he hates future Minmax.
DM: Demons turn and move toward you.
Minmax: I jump over the wall and attack!
Ears: I attack the yellow one!
DM: Axe explodes.
DM: Demons turn and point toward door.

Just because we can see that the green demon axe was cracked doesn't mean that the DM described it. Remember, he's not been described as a particularly good DM. The players are really condescending toward him. If Thunt makes him suddenly a fantastic, extremely descriptive DM, it's out of character.

It's not just about description; a lot of what happened in the previous battle depends on what the characters will do now, and some of it depends on pure chance. Even if we assume that all the players decide to attack whoever their counterparts attacked previously at the same time (like Complains going straight for brown demon/Fumbles, or Fumbles turning back to attack green demon/Complains), there are actual die rolls involved that will have to come up a certain way to fit the previous battle. For example, in the previous battle, Ears dodged an attack by the yellow thing (demon-Fumbles) to get at demon-Thaco. Technically, Fumbles will now have to decide to attack the purple demon (Demon-Ears) when it lands, and his blow must not connect, or continuity is not preserved. If Fumbles has a player, that means that the DM must either depend on luck, fudge the numbers, or fully narrate this battle.
Depending on luck is not going to work; too much depends on the characters attacking the right person at the right moment; all of the goblins suffered damage in the previous battle, all those attacks need to be accounted for.
Fudging the numbers is also depending on luck. If one of the players rolls a cricitcal hit or miss at an inopportune time, all the continuity goes down the drain.
Fully narrating the battle is exactly what Guus said it is: railroading.

[YardMeat]

For me, there are just times in the comic where I end up suspending the whole "this is a game" thing and focus on the story itself. The player and game-related stuff doesn't really seem vital to any aspect of the comic or its story, and it is mostly just there for throwaway jokes. Besides referring to themselves as PCs (which I always just took to mean they were taking PC classes/levels), I don't see any reason to believe that the goblins have players. Unlike MM, Forgath and the drows, they make no mention of having players. Story wise, it wouldn't even make sense. When the goblins decided to become PCs, were they also deciding to be run by players, even though they hadn't been run by players up until this point? If so, why have their personalities remained consistent instead of changing noticeably when they got players? Is the same DM running a campaign for Forgath and his new friends, another campaign for the drow players, another campaign for MM and the GAP and another campaign for Dies and his friends?

Some of the details are clearly meant for us as comic readers and simply don't make sense as game details. Is the DM literally sitting there and telling MM's player, "Hey, when you drew Oblivious, the armor that was visible through the portal was orange. You can't draw Oblivious again until you say the word 'Orange'"?

The whole concept of determinism has been a huuuuuuuge part of this comic from the beginning. There are prophecies all over the place. Hell, several Goblins have names that are, in themselves, mini-prophecies. I don't really see how this should bother man any more than (GoT spoiler, not that probably haven't heard already)

► Show Spoiler

the whole Hodor thing, which also depends on events playing out in the future.

Plus, let's face it, the comic is going to always have a higher level of detail than what a DM would/could be narrating during the course of an RPG session.

[RocketScientist]

I don't think the Goblins have players, either. At least, I hope not. I think that would cheapen them and take away their agency. Do they actually call themselves PCs? Or do they just call themselves adventurers? I can remember them saying adventurers, but I don't specifically remember them saying PCs.

But OK, then. Let's say it *is* DM railroading. Isn't that Herbert's fault for being a bad DM? Which we were flat out told he was at the beginning of the comic? Remember when he got mad at Minmax & Forgath, and made them fight the one-legged orc? Or when he sent Not-Walter to mess with them? Did you guys want to play that part of the campaign with Herbert?

[Krulle]

I don't think it's railroading, even if the Goblins are characters with players sitting around Herbert's table.

DM: You see five demon-looking beings standing around having a conversation. A big one and four smaller ones.
Party: We try to sneak by.
Minmax: I'm going to pull out my sword, just in case.
DM remembers/check notes about the last time Minmax let go of his sword.
DM: Past Minmax yells that he hates future Minmax.
DM: Demons turn and move toward you.
Minmax: I jump over the wall and attack!
Ears: I attack the yellow one!
DM: Axe explodes.
DM: Demons turn and point toward door.

[edit by Krulle]
The players decide to follow the Demons' hint and walk through the door.
DM: You enter the same room on the top side.
Players: some discussion
DM: You hear a Demon yelling something. You all look down, a group of Demons looks up from behind a wall at you and are preparing to attack you.
Will you go,back to the undefeatable demons in the previous room or will you charge this group?
[/edit]

Fully narrating the battle is exactly what Guus said it is: railroading.

You do not need a full narration, just the second half must be narrated only in so far as details have been decided in the first half.
As Minmax is most trigger-happy of the group, plus the fastest in moving, it's obvious he'll lead the charge in both cases. Just the choice of his opponent needs to be "guided".

[nikohl]

I don't think the Goblins have players, either. At least, I hope not. I think that would cheapen them and take away their agency. Do they actually call themselves PCs? Or do they just call themselves adventurers? I can remember them saying adventurers, but I don't specifically remember them saying PCs.

I checked, and they do actually use the term "Player Characters" - I always interpreted it as "You know, the thing that isn't "NPCs", so that we have a chance to not be XP-fodder", rather than "People who have players", but...yeah, Fumbles declares himself a Player Character, tells the others it's a shame they aren't PCs like him, and then they choose their classes and so on.

http://www.goblinscomic.org/02172006/

[RocketScientist]

Thanks for checking. Did you notice if anybody else uses the term PCs? Because I think Fumbles might be different, since he's Fumbles/Vorpal, and no one else has an alter ego. I can't decide whether I want all of this explained by Thunt eventually or not. It's all a bit confusing (e.g. Fumbles as Vorpal can have 11 conflicting character classes, why does Fumbles have an alter-ego in the first place, etc.), but then again I'm not sure any explanation would make everything better.

[Guus]

I don't think it will. I just think it sucks that they have no actual free will in this situation, if you look at it from a D&D perspective, but also from a worldbuilding perspective. They lose all agency in this time travel paradox, in a way that has a huge impact on their lives and possibly the world. It makes for a weak story, and a weak reason for something as epic as the Axe of Prissan breaking. It could've been so incredibly awesome. Imagine if Kore took the axe and caused it to break, or if something else ran off with the thing, but instead we're stuck with Big Ears breaking the axe over something that their future selves did, which has to happen nonetheless because they're stuck in a time loop.

Would I mind Herbert being my DM? In the case of the one legged orc: yes. In the case of this situation: yes. But at least in the earlier instance there wasn't any actual drama going on with Forgath and Minmax, and it was played off as humor. It had no actual long term consequence. This scene basically forces them to change their entire process in favor of what the DM or the universe demands them to. It's shitty, especially if you think about how much free will and creating your own destiny plays a role in the comic.