May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

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Guus
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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Guus » Sun May 15, 2016 5:18 am

Oblivion =/= regular time/time travel. It's the absence of existence, but it says nothing about time travel and its rules. The DM decided that the axe would break, and it did. If the staff had anything to do with it as Yard says it means that in this context the DM deliberately decided to attack Big Ears with the anti magic stick. Sure, the players could've prevented it if they had any hints that that might've been the case, but they didn't. So yes, this is some powerful railroading right here.

To compare it with my own campaign: my Big Bad is trying to lure a fire giant into a city, and use its powers for his own machinations. It's difficult for the players to prevent it from happening, but it's possible, and they have hints how to stop it, they know something is happening that they need to prevent (even though they don't know the details), and because of that, when they come up with something creative I can adapt accordingly as a DM. Patting myself on the back here, but that's how you keep a game interesting and the players engaged. Otherwise the players could've very well respond with "what the hell are you forcing on our characters". Plot twists can be interesting as long as they either don't directly mess with a character or when it's due to them doing something that they could easily have known. They aren't meant to set up the characters for your own story.
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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by miados » Sun May 15, 2016 8:15 am

I picture current/demon minmax hearing past him thinking something like "If I can talk to him maybe we can stop the ax from breaking" but forgetting past him already attacked current him.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Strawberrycocoa » Sun May 15, 2016 11:04 am

Sessine wrote:
Strawberrycocoa wrote:I like how in the last panel of today's they are standing in the same poses we first saw the "demon" party in: http://www.goblinscomic.org/03132016-2/
They really are the same, down to many small details!
Image

Image
By the way, Sessine, this is Dave from Selkie. Nice to run into you here. :D

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by RocketScientist » Sun May 15, 2016 11:35 am

Sessine wrote:A minor point:
Mekronid wrote:Because the Drow are present, it's now definitely D&D 4.0, which means...
Drow were around at least as far back as AD&D 2.0, so one cannot deduce anything from their presence in the story. (I seem to recall Thunt has said that Goblins goes by 3.0 with maybe a touch of 3.5. Or maybe it's all 3.5? In any case, definitely not 4.0.)
I can confirm Drow in 1st edition AD&D. And yes, we're 3.0 with 3.5/homebrew as needed.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Sessine » Sun May 15, 2016 2:21 pm

Guus wrote:Oblivion =/= regular time/time travel. It's the absence of existence, but it says nothing about time travel and its rules. The DM decided that the axe would break, and it did. If the staff had anything to do with it as Yard says it means that in this context the DM deliberately decided to attack Big Ears with the anti magic stick. Sure, the players could've prevented it if they had any hints that that might've been the case, but they didn't. So yes, this is some powerful railroading right here.

To compare it with my own campaign: my Big Bad is trying to lure a fire giant into a city, and use its powers for his own machinations. It's difficult for the players to prevent it from happening, but it's possible, and they have hints how to stop it, they know something is happening that they need to prevent (even though they don't know the details), and because of that, when they come up with something creative I can adapt accordingly as a DM. Patting myself on the back here, but that's how you keep a game interesting and the players engaged. Otherwise the players could've very well respond with "what the hell are you forcing on our characters". Plot twists can be interesting as long as they either don't directly mess with a character or when it's due to them doing something that they could easily have known. They aren't meant to set up the characters for your own story.
...to maybe repeat the overly-obvious: this IS Thunt's own story that he's telling us.

His story does include a game of D&D in our world, but we don't have nearly enough information about that game to be able to judge Herbert guilty of railroading. Mind you, it's possible that's what he did; there are clues scattered throughout that he's maybe not just the very best DM in the world. Remember that Herbert, too, is a character in Thunt's story, and he definitely does have flaws. We know, for instance, that he can be really sarcastic if a player criticizes the game. So maybe he did just arbitrarily decree that the axe was guaranteed to break at this point, no matter what.

On the other hand, if Big Ears is a player character (and for the sake of this discussion let's just assume he is), then the player may have ignored a number of hints, then rolled badly on a save for the axe.

What hints?

1. When Big Ears first acquired the axe, the player got the full background writeup on its history - expressed in the game as Big Ears magically knowing it because he's a paladin. The player knew everything we know, at least. Maybe even more details. He had certainly been told that the axe could break.

2. When they met the demon party, Herbert could have described it in such a way that if the players were really listening, they'd pick up that this was a mirror-image version of themselves. Not obvious, but they could have figured it out. Some readers did figure it out here in the forum, from the way Thunt drew the demons. If he was being fair, Herbert would have given his players the same level of information, in carefully chosen words. He would have mentioned that the demon he was describing as Ears' own counterpart had a broken axe -- a pretty broad warning, if they had only picked up that these were their counterparts.

3. The players knew very well, from the rope room, that Fumbles' new staff is really powerful at breaking magic traps. It's not a huge leap to think that it might be able to break other magic items, too.

IF they had been able to put these three things together, Big Ears' player would have known not to tangle with the Fumbles-counterpart 'demon'. Fight any of the other ones, but NOT THAT ONE, you dummy! But no. In the heat of battle, he said, "I attack the yellow demon with the stick." You can see that it was Ears attacking the demon, not the other way around, in the first panel here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/04132016-2/

The demon with the stick fought back. And Herbert told the player, "Roll a save."

So, yeah. The game could have been entirely fair. In your words, "It's difficult for the players to prevent it from happening, but it's possible..."

But pull back a level. Consider the story we're reading. Herbert and all his players are characters in Thunt's story. Shadowy, in the background... we don't ever actually see them, but we do get hints that they exist, so they are part of the story. Did Thunt know all along that, in Herbert's game, the axe was going to fail its save? Of course he did. A good storyteller has to know his story, especially pivotal world-changing events like this. Stories don't just happen. They are shaped. He's been giving us hints that it could break for a long time.

Now it has.
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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Morgaln » Sun May 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Sessine wrote:
Guus wrote:Oblivion =/= regular time/time travel. It's the absence of existence, but it says nothing about time travel and its rules. The DM decided that the axe would break, and it did. If the staff had anything to do with it as Yard says it means that in this context the DM deliberately decided to attack Big Ears with the anti magic stick. Sure, the players could've prevented it if they had any hints that that might've been the case, but they didn't. So yes, this is some powerful railroading right here.

To compare it with my own campaign: my Big Bad is trying to lure a fire giant into a city, and use its powers for his own machinations. It's difficult for the players to prevent it from happening, but it's possible, and they have hints how to stop it, they know something is happening that they need to prevent (even though they don't know the details), and because of that, when they come up with something creative I can adapt accordingly as a DM. Patting myself on the back here, but that's how you keep a game interesting and the players engaged. Otherwise the players could've very well respond with "what the hell are you forcing on our characters". Plot twists can be interesting as long as they either don't directly mess with a character or when it's due to them doing something that they could easily have known. They aren't meant to set up the characters for your own story.
...to maybe repeat the overly-obvious: this IS Thunt's own story that he's telling us.

His story does include a game of D&D in our world, but we don't have nearly enough information about that game to be able to judge Herbert guilty of railroading. Mind you, it's possible that's what he did; there are clues scattered throughout that he's maybe not just the very best DM in the world. Remember that Herbert, too, is a character in Thunt's story, and he definitely does have flaws. We know, for instance, that he can be really sarcastic if a player criticizes the game. So maybe he did just arbitrarily decree that the axe was guaranteed to break at this point, no matter what.

On the other hand, if Big Ears is a player character (and for the sake of this discussion let's just assume he is), then the player may have ignored a number of hints, then rolled badly on a save for the axe.

What hints?

1. When Big Ears first acquired the axe, the player got the full background writeup on its history - expressed in the game as Big Ears magically knowing it because he's a paladin. The player knew everything we know, at least. Maybe even more details. He had certainly been told that the axe could break.

2. When they met the demon party, Herbert could have described it in such a way that if the players were really listening, they'd pick up that this was a mirror-image version of themselves. Not obvious, but they could have figured it out. Some readers did figure it out here in the forum, from the way Thunt drew the demons. If he was being fair, Herbert would have given his players the same level of information, in carefully chosen words. He would have mentioned that the demon he was describing as Ears' own counterpart had a broken axe -- a pretty broad warning, if they had only picked up that these were their counterparts.

3. The players knew very well, from the rope room, that Fumbles' new staff is really powerful at breaking magic traps. It's not a huge leap to think that it might be able to break other magic items, too.

IF they had been able to put these three things together, Big Ears' player would have known not to tangle with the Fumbles-counterpart 'demon'. Fight any of the other ones, but NOT THAT ONE, you dummy! But no. In the heat of battle, he said, "I attack the yellow demon with the stick." You can see that it was Ears attacking the demon, not the other way around, in the first panel here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/04132016-2/

The demon with the stick fought back. And Herbert told the player, "Roll a save."

So, yeah. The game could have been entirely fair. In your words, "It's difficult for the players to prevent it from happening, but it's possible..."

But pull back a level. Consider the story we're reading. Herbert and all his players are characters in Thunt's story. Shadowy, in the background... we don't ever actually see them, but we do get hints that they exist, so they are part of the story. Did Thunt know all along that, in Herbert's game, the axe was going to fail its save? Of course he did. A good storyteller has to know his story, especially pivotal world-changing events like this. Stories don't just happen. They are shaped. He's been giving us hints that it could break for a long time.

Now it has.
Actually, we do have pretty conclusive evidence of railroading. Judging from the last panel of this page, the "demons" the party fought were not just mirror images of themselves, but the party itself from a few minutes into the future. The battle that made the axe break was caused by that future party attacking them, i. e. the blue demon/future Minmax charging at them. As an aside, I'm sure Hunt considers it an awesome joke that Minmax is telling us about how he hates future Minmax while said future Minmax is running towards him in the guise of a demon in the background of the same panel.
But what that means is that what happened in that battle was partly due to actions the party hasn't even taken yet. For this to work, the players would now have to do the exact same things the "demons" did previously. There are only two ways that will work: either the players have already figured this out and play along by doing exactly what the GM said they were doing earlier, or the GM takes over and narrates this part of the story. Either way, it's railroading, because the decision of what they will do in this situation has been completely taken out of the players' hand and has never been theirs to begin with.

Edit. I also disagree about the hints that the axe could break. When in Brassmoon, the axe exuded evil so powerful Ears could feel it without even trying. There has been no similar effect ever since he took the axe, affecting neither him nor Kore (or Fumbles, for that matter, who canonically is a Paladin as well). That is strong evidence that the axe was no longer as close to breaking as before. If an act of powerful evil could have broken the axe, it should have broken when Saral Caine attacked Big Ears; by definiton, attacking a Paladin with the intent to harm or kill is an evil act. Attacking a demon, especially one that attacked you first, is not.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by YardMeat » Sun May 15, 2016 4:24 pm

Guus wrote:Oblivion =/= regular time/time travel. It's the absence of existence, but it says nothing about time travel and its rules. The DM decided that the axe would break, and it did. If the staff had anything to do with it as Yard says it means that in this context the DM deliberately decided to attack Big Ears with the anti magic stick. Sure, the players could've prevented it if they had any hints that that might've been the case, but they didn't. So yes, this is some powerful railroading right here.

To compare it with my own campaign: my Big Bad is trying to lure a fire giant into a city, and use its powers for his own machinations. It's difficult for the players to prevent it from happening, but it's possible, and they have hints how to stop it, they know something is happening that they need to prevent (even though they don't know the details), and because of that, when they come up with something creative I can adapt accordingly as a DM. Patting myself on the back here, but that's how you keep a game interesting and the players engaged. Otherwise the players could've very well respond with "what the hell are you forcing on our characters". Plot twists can be interesting as long as they either don't directly mess with a character or when it's due to them doing something that they could easily have known. They aren't meant to set up the characters for your own story.
But Oblivious does = time travel, or at least small closed loops of time travel. Are we to believe that the DM is sitting back and telling MM's player, "Okay, next time you draw Oblivious, your armor is going to be red. So you can't draw until your character says the word 'red"? The very existence of Oblivious and the way Oblivious operates forces us, as readers, to suspend our idea that this story is a game and should be read as such at all times. Plus, how do we even know that the GAP has players? MM does, obviously, but I don't think we've been given any indication that the goblins have players behind them. In fact, there are all sorts of other things about the story that would become problematic if this were the case.

The whole issue of determinism vs free will has been a consistent theme of the story for years now.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Sessine » Sun May 15, 2016 7:58 pm

YardMeat wrote:The very existence of Oblivious and the way Oblivious operates forces us, as readers, to suspend our idea that this story is a game and should be read as such at all times. Plus, how do we even know that the GAP has players? MM does, obviously, but I don't think we've been given any indication that the goblins have players behind them. In fact, there are all sorts of other things about the story that would become problematic if this were the case.

The whole issue of determinism vs free will has been a consistent theme of the story for years now.
Well said. We really can't say for sure whether the GAP has players. I'm aware of the issues that arise if they do. Yet if they don't, the only way to read this whole Dragon's Maw arc of the story as taking place in a real-world game is to imagine the entire thing as a solo adventure being run just for MM's player. Worse yet, all those chapters that were entirely about the GAP? They had no players at all!

The title of the strip is not Minmax and Forgath's Excellent Adventure.

Me, I just think the framework of a shadowy real-world game is meant to fade in and out of focus. Sometimes it's there (mostly for laughs), and sometimes you're not even supposed to be able to think about it.
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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Mekronid » Sun May 15, 2016 10:05 pm

Sessine wrote:A minor point:Drow were around at least as far back as AD&D 2.0, so one cannot deduce anything from their presence in the story.
I misread some stuff online. Anyway, it's still confirmed by Thaco that we're at or, more likely, past 3.5.

You know it totally figures that people would pick this out and completely ignore everything else I said.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Guus » Mon May 16, 2016 1:18 am

You're right Yard, oblivion does time travel. Thanks, that slipped my mind :oops:
The comparison between the armor colour and the fight scene between past and future party is incorrect though. A visual nudge to the readers wouldn't make a difference to the people actually playing (it wouldn't be mentioned in-game), but past/future interaction does make a big difference for the players.

I agree that we don't have any clues if the goblins do or do not have players, except that they mentioned becoming player characters. It's the kind of meta speak that could easily be ignored because there wouldn't be much else directly hinting at them being players.

To me the story has consistently better when imagined as a group playing the characters. Brassmoon would've been a terrific couple of sessions, with a lot of choices for the players. Being able to set loose the prisoners as a means to escape? If that was the player's idea then it's some darn good DMing taking place there. That is mainly what made that arc so awesome to me.

Free will vs determinism has been a big part of the story, I agree, but it has been a cultural thing mainly. "We come from a goblin warcamp but that doesn't mean we're evil, and we just want to protect our own". Which I think is a very cool premise. The way this scene played out isn't about overcoming what others think of you, it's a giant middle finger from either the DM or the universe. Either possibility doesn't sit well with me. Or the party change what they did and the future gets changed, but that would not only render the last few pages moot, but THunt's "goblins changed forever" declaration too, so I highly doubt it.
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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Gift Fastidious » Mon May 16, 2016 12:08 pm

On the one hand, it is kind of a dumb move for the GM to force the issue, but on the other it kind of depends on the implications of the axe being broke. While it seems like a bad thing in the immediate sense, it might indirectly give them an opporunity that would otherwise be unavailable: For instace, the axe breaking in this room specifically might set up a way to beat the demon for good, or at least set it against Kore such that they both end up incapacitated temporarily.

It still wouldn't be the best DMing, but not the worst if they're given more options than they would have with the axe unbroken once the sequence for this pair of rooms is finished. But further, if the goblins do have players, then we don't know how much those players actually know about what's planned for their characters. It could be that before they went into the time room, the DM actually told them what would happen and either asked for their approval before going ahead, or even had them play their own time duplicates so that they were actually never out of control to begin with. In the latter case, this would mean that the only certainty was that they would go throught the waterfall door, and even though Big Ears the character didn't know what was going on yet, his player would have but just decided that it was in-character to do that.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by RocketScientist » Mon May 16, 2016 12:16 pm

Guus wrote:I agree that we don't have any clues if the goblins do or do not have players, except that they mentioned becoming player characters. It's the kind of meta speak that could easily be ignored because there wouldn't be much else directly hinting at them being players.

To me the story has consistently better when imagined as a group playing the characters. Brassmoon would've been a terrific couple of sessions, with a lot of choices for the players. Being able to set loose the prisoners as a means to escape? If that was the player's idea then it's some darn good DMing taking place there. That is mainly what made that arc so awesome to me.
Minmax and Forgath don't have to hint at having players. They come right out and say it. Why would the Goblins be any different if they had players?

What made the Brassmooon section awesome to me is the idea of NPCs rising up and fighting back without players. So that really depends on your point of view. Maybe we shouldn't ever find out for sure whether or not they have players. The answer is bound to wreck it for somebody.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Guus » Mon May 16, 2016 12:35 pm

That indeed is another way too look at it. I think Brassmoon was pretty awesome anyhow. I also agree that we don't really have to know if they are players. Still think that the universe is screwing them over big time though, apart from if the universe comes from a DM or some other kind of force.
Ah well, we'll see how Hunt deals with the next part of the story.
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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Liquidmark » Fri May 20, 2016 6:00 pm

Guus wrote:So the DM decided that the axe was going to break here anyway regardless, because the "monsters" were were introduced with a broken axe. Great.
It was inevitable that ears was going to use his axe in the battle.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Corpsificus » Sat May 21, 2016 9:40 am

I'm telling you guys that fool Big Ears lied.http://www.goblinscomic.org/08242015-2/ Paladins lose their skills if they lie and the Thuntiverse is doomed because of his carelessness. The icing on the cake is he's supposed to protect the innocent. BWAHAHAAHAH!

Probably better if Ears threw the axe down the chasm and let Kore kill em. :wall:
Now the demon is gonna destroy the universe and death won't be fun anymore.
Klik is probably float rolling in his dust. :shrug:
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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Simon » Sat May 21, 2016 10:53 am

It's probably been mentioned, but I think it's cool that two of the demons have their weapons 'attached' to them. Both the Minmax and Ears demon's weapons seem to be tied to their hands. It's probably because Ears has claimed the axe or something and because Minmax can't let go of his sword. I suppose you could include Thaco's demon in this (his weapons are his hands and they are also 'tied' to himself).

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by thinkslogically » Sat May 21, 2016 11:00 am

Morgaln wrote:But what that means is that what happened in that battle was partly due to actions the party hasn't even taken yet. For this to work, the players would now have to do the exact same things the "demons" did previously. There are only two ways that will work: either the players have already figured this out and play along by doing exactly what the GM said they were doing earlier, or the GM takes over and narrates this part of the story. Either way, it's railroading, because the decision of what they will do in this situation has been completely taken out of the players' hand and has never been theirs to begin with.
You could make this work without railroading, all you need is a Plan A and a Plan B.

Under Plan A, and based on the GM's knowledge of the players, the GM sets up an encounter with the intention that it will play out as we see in the comic. The players assume the demons are evil monsters to battle, and leap in to attack. They have hints that they are facing themselves, but no way to confirm it.

Under Plan B, the players DON'T behave as planned and do something else. The GM switches to Plan B, in which the demons they see are NOT future versions of the players and provide a more conventional encounter (e.g. they really are just a group of low-level demons). The demons could still have the same stats / characteristics as the player's party, but are simply switched to 'mirror' versions or whatever instead of 'future' versions.

You don't need railroading to pull off cool things like this, you just need to take a chance that your cool Plan A won't happen. Since this is a comic and NOT a real D&D game, it makes sense that we see more of these choices falling out in the GMs favour in order to keep the story as interesting as possible.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by speakslittle » Sun May 22, 2016 8:00 am

Junior, save us! Eat the demon!
...wait....

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by YardMeat » Mon May 23, 2016 8:27 am

Corpsificus wrote:I'm telling you guys that fool Big Ears lied.http://www.goblinscomic.org/08242015-2/ Paladins lose their skills if they lie and the Thuntiverse is doomed because of his carelessness. The icing on the cake is he's supposed to protect the innocent. BWAHAHAAHAH!

Probably better if Ears threw the axe down the chasm and let Kore kill em. :wall:
Now the demon is gonna destroy the universe and death won't be fun anymore.
Klik is probably float rolling in his dust. :shrug:
We'd already know if BE lost his paladin status; he would have failed when he tried to use his detect evil ability. Even if he had lost his paladin . . . paladinism? paladinhood? the Axe doesn't require a paladin to keep it strong, only good acts. When the Axe is weak, paladins can tell, and we have no indication that it has weakened since BE claimed it. If a lie is enough to weaken the Axe that much, it would have been destroyed a long, long, long time ago.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by RocketScientist » Mon May 23, 2016 9:23 am

Also, IIRC, Ears said that only paladins get the full plate armor from the axe. Which is why Saral Caine didn't have it. But Ears still does.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by YardMeat » Mon May 23, 2016 5:20 pm

Hm, I'm still firmly in team "lying didn't make the Axe break." However, I just noticed in that comic that the Axe suddenly couldn't cut the ropes. Maybe something was already set in motion even then.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by thinkslogically » Mon May 23, 2016 7:22 pm

Bear in mind too that BE attacked the demon-Fumbles with the axe and Fumbles is pretty much the epitome of Good alignment in the GAP (except for BE himself). Personally, I think "sort-of-accidentally attacking your good-aligned friend because you didn't properly check if he was evil" is a worse action than lying. Plus, BE used the axe to attack a paladin. That ain't good.

Hey, I wonder if the axe's demon simply brings out the evil in the people around it. That would explain why Kore is so damn obsessed with it, and why he could remain a legit paladin because EVERYONE is evil (except him anyway; and I'd guess that his "curse" is somehow related to that - imagine what kind of personal strength would be required to remain 100% "good" AND carry the souls of every single person he killed and STILL remain dedicated to his mission). It would also fit the theme of the comic, because if "evil" creatures can be good and morality is grey, then "good" folk must also be equally evil, which pretty much covers everyone.

Anyway, if someone can point me to part of the Kore-theorising thread where this has all already been said before and proven to be wrong that would be great :lol:

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Mon May 23, 2016 7:51 pm

uh no. protecting yourself from attacks is not evil. nor is self defense killing. it does not matter the alignment of the person. Also ears did detect evil and they were evil

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by thinkslogically » Mon May 23, 2016 9:01 pm

I dunno, BE was on the offensive in that battle same as everyone. He certainly wasn't just defending himself.

And the detect evil was vague and only showed that some of the demons were evil. Pretty sure that could be complains or the axe-demon, or he fluffed his check.

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Re: May 13, 2016: The Cracking of Reality

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Tue May 24, 2016 1:54 am

Ears was able to tell kin was non evil, caine as evil, and goblin slayer as evil, in spite of the evilness of the axe. He should have known which demons were evil.

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