2016-March-12: SO Evil

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ForgetsOldName
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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by ForgetsOldName » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:00 pm

If they're opposites...wouldn't their weaknesses be the party's strengths? But the Minmax one looks bigger and size is generally a plus, even for a weak character. Do you think AntiMax is thoughtful and cautious? Can he rhyme on purpose?
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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by Glemp » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:37 pm

ForgetsOldName wrote:If they're opposites...wouldn't their weaknesses be the party's strengths? But the Minmax one looks bigger and size is generally a plus, even for a weak character. Do you think AntiMax is thoughtful and cautious? Can he rhyme on purpose?
What if they're not opposites, but exaggerations? Evil MM is EVEN BIGGER AND EVEN STRONGER, Evil Thac0 is EVEN FASTER AND EVEN LIGHTER, Evil Complains' claws are EVEN LONGER and EVEN SHARPER and so on. I'm guessing they'll have to swap partners to attack each other's weaknesses.

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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by Achaedus » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:52 pm

illocust wrote:
Achaedus wrote:Long-time reader, first-time poster.

Just felt like asking if anybody else has noted the similarities between this group of baddies and the goblins + minmax. To the point that I'm thinking they're intended as an exact opposite type bit.

Minmax = Big blue bugger with arm that looks like its melded with a sword
Big Ears = Little green guy with big 'horns' that just happens to be wielding an axe (or a tomahawk... hey Ashton, c'mere...)
Names = Red guy with claws and another sword
Thaco = Monk-looking Gray-Black thingie

And before anybody says anything about Vorpal not being included in this list, it could be that the dungeon is maybe offering editorial commentary on Vorpal's contribution to the party...
There looks to be the head of a yellow one in the bottom left corner of panel one. That could be the one representing Vorpal.
Ah yeah, that's prolly it. He's prolly their leader, too.

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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by Restomak » Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:27 pm

I don't think they're going actually to fight in this room. Unless there's a change in the background color, it seems wrong.

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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by nikohl » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:30 am

And that reminds me... When Minmax does draw his sword, he'll ruin any chance of stealth the group might've been trying to maintain.

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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by zendarx2 » Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:22 am

Right away I noticed the similarities, wondered about Vorpal, however there is a yellow one in the foreground. That might be his evil counterpart.
No mater what, this ought to be good.
I hope MinMax shows the goblins what adventurers are made of. They may have taken classes, but he's a professional adventurer. This should be his time to shine. Not to mention he has some frustration to take out and Kore isn't here at the moment.
Achaedus wrote:Long-time reader, first-time poster.

Just felt like asking if anybody else has noted the similarities between this group of baddies and the goblins + minmax. To the point that I'm thinking they're intended as an exact opposite type bit.

Minmax = Big blue bugger with arm that looks like its melded with a sword
Big Ears = Little green guy with big 'horns' that just happens to be wielding an axe (or a tomahawk... hey Ashton, c'mere...)
Names = Red guy with claws and another sword
Thaco = Monk-looking Gray-Black thingie

And before anybody says anything about Vorpal not being included in this list, it could be that the dungeon is maybe offering editorial commentary on Vorpal's contribution to the party...

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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by RocketScientist » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:51 pm

What makes a professional adventurer, though? Aren't the goblins (other than Vorpal) higher level than Minmax & Forgath? I've actually lost track of what level everybody is, come to think of it. What level is everybody?
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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by askstoomuch » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:43 am

this is propabbly just me but I hate it when they use dnd terms in the comic , like "make our moves silently checks " I Know it is a dnd comic but It totally ruins the feel for me, I kinda want to make the big asks edit removing all and any refrences to dnd

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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by Guus » Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:40 am

I sort of agree, but that mainly has to do with the combination of ignoring and upholding D&D rules and universe guidelines, and because of its inconsistency it's kind of offputting sometimes. I do however like the -x when someone is "unconcious".
In our games we don't let unconcious players speak. We do often take the chance just before falling unconcious to say one more thing, which can be useful. Like "Is that a lev--" *gets knocked in the head and falls down* when one character spotted an important lever that could par example open a door or something.
You might be right, but is it productive?

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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by ForgetsOldName » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:58 pm

Well, the fact that the characters know they are DnD creatures is key to the whole premise. The goblins are aware that they are XP for low level player characters, they know that the rules changed and that goblins can be player characters, and that player characters have a huge advantage because they can level up. There are also many places where the plot plays off of the player's quirks, some silly like when Minmax calls Forgath a girl, or the Drow Trio forgetting that they have new characters, and some deadly serious, like when Minmax decides to attack Goblinslayer.

I guess what I'm saying is that "in game" goblins simply could not act like this because they'd not be self-aware enough to realize how badly the rules are stacked against them.
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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by Morgaln » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:38 am

ForgetsOldName wrote:Well, the fact that the characters know they are DnD creatures is key to the whole premise. The goblins are aware that they are XP for low level player characters, they know that the rules changed and that goblins can be player characters, and that player characters have a huge advantage because they can level up. There are also many places where the plot plays off of the player's quirks, some silly like when Minmax calls Forgath a girl, or the Drow Trio forgetting that they have new characters, and some deadly serious, like when Minmax decides to attack Goblinslayer.

I guess what I'm saying is that "in game" goblins simply could not act like this because they'd not be self-aware enough to realize how badly the rules are stacked against them.
I don't think native people around the world needed a rulebook and dice to realize they were treated badly by a vastly superior force when Europeans landed on their shores and claimed whatever they pleased. So why would the goblins be unaware of the difference in attitude?

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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by ForgetsOldName » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:33 am

Morgaln wrote:
ForgetsOldName wrote:Well, the fact that the characters know they are DnD creatures is key to the whole premise. The goblins are aware that they are XP for low level player characters, they know that the rules changed and that goblins can be player characters, and that player characters have a huge advantage because they can level up. There are also many places where the plot plays off of the player's quirks, some silly like when Minmax calls Forgath a girl, or the Drow Trio forgetting that they have new characters, and some deadly serious, like when Minmax decides to attack Goblinslayer.

I guess what I'm saying is that "in game" goblins simply could not act like this because they'd not be self-aware enough to realize how badly the rules are stacked against them.
I don't think native people around the world needed a rulebook and dice to realize they were treated badly by a vastly superior force when Europeans landed on their shores and claimed whatever they pleased. So why would the goblins be unaware of the difference in attitude?
But I don't believe that's a good comparison at all.

DnD goblins are not native people. They are fictional constructs who attack low level players for no reason other than CHAOTIC EVIL BRO! and always to their detriment. The comic hinges on the idea that these constructs might be self-aware enough to act in their own best interest, rather than as mandated in their description in the Monster Manual. So you can't get away from the meta-gaming without losing the whole premise of the comic.

There's been much speculation on the players of this game--whether the goblins have actual players, DM'd by Herbert, whether they may in fact be the same people that are playing Forgath and Minmax, whether the Drow trio players are playing anything at all right now, whether this is somehow some sort of dimensional clash where two DnD groups that aren't even aware of one another are each other's NPCs. To me this is fundamental to the comic, not an intrusion.
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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by Guus » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:39 pm

Wow, way to kill the suspension of disbelief. The premise may be that they are D&D characters, but in that world it's real. The premise is not that they're fictional, but that they break the rules of the clan, not the world. Meta wise it fits to us, but for them it's part of their world. "XP" is a thing in their world.

Also, the comparison Morgaln made is kind of accurate (if you look at it from a certain moment in history from a certain perspective), because the goblins are aware of their inferiority. Culturally they feel superior to humans, but they realize, as lowlvl xp fodder, that they are inferior in power. That's not very different from how some groups of Amerindian think in this day and age: their cultural integrity and very livelihood is under constant threat of the "white man's" culture. the meta aspect isnt even relevant. The Goblins realize they are inferior in power due to their cultural background, and they adapt to the other humanoid's way of life (up to an extent) to level the playing field. Like A Cherokee learning how to use and maintain an industrially made gun.
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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by Morgaln » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:32 pm

ForgetsOldName wrote:
Morgaln wrote:
ForgetsOldName wrote:Well, the fact that the characters know they are DnD creatures is key to the whole premise. The goblins are aware that they are XP for low level player characters, they know that the rules changed and that goblins can be player characters, and that player characters have a huge advantage because they can level up. There are also many places where the plot plays off of the player's quirks, some silly like when Minmax calls Forgath a girl, or the Drow Trio forgetting that they have new characters, and some deadly serious, like when Minmax decides to attack Goblinslayer.

I guess what I'm saying is that "in game" goblins simply could not act like this because they'd not be self-aware enough to realize how badly the rules are stacked against them.
I don't think native people around the world needed a rulebook and dice to realize they were treated badly by a vastly superior force when Europeans landed on their shores and claimed whatever they pleased. So why would the goblins be unaware of the difference in attitude?
But I don't believe that's a good comparison at all.

DnD goblins are not native people. They are fictional constructs who attack low level players for no reason other than CHAOTIC EVIL BRO! and always to their detriment. The comic hinges on the idea that these constructs might be self-aware enough to act in their own best interest, rather than as mandated in their description in the Monster Manual. So you can't get away from the meta-gaming without losing the whole premise of the comic.

There's been much speculation on the players of this game--whether the goblins have actual players, DM'd by Herbert, whether they may in fact be the same people that are playing Forgath and Minmax, whether the Drow trio players are playing anything at all right now, whether this is somehow some sort of dimensional clash where two DnD groups that aren't even aware of one another are each other's NPCs. To me this is fundamental to the comic, not an intrusion.
Technically, goblins are usually neutral evil, not chaotic evil, but that doesn't have any bearing on your point, of course.

I do disagree with you, though. I think the point of Goblins is that the goblins are not just fictional constructs but have emotions just like humans do; that it is wrong to treat them like soulless monsters or dangerous animals, because that is pointedly not what they are. While many D&D campaigns are egregious examples of that, it is not something inherently tied to games. There have been eras in human history when it was possible for white people to kill or rape humans of other skin color with impunity, especially black people, and they didn't even have to hide it. At worst it would be considered akin to cruelty against animals, because those natives were thought to be no more than that. Look at Goblinslayer's behavior and you'll easily see the parallels. Over time, that changed, but even then natives were often thought of as inherently dangerous, less intelligent and inferior to whites. Their cultures were dismissed as backward and primitive. As Guus already pointed out, this is something that goes on to this very day, and is easily comparable to the situation the D&D goblins are in.

As an aside, this comic was somewhat late to point this out, even when it started. By the time of D&D 3.5, which Goblins is using, goblins and other "evil" humanoid races had already been introduced as possible player races for years. Today, it's not even unusal in the slightest, and if you look into video games, orcs are one of the most common playable races by now.

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Re: 2016-March-12: SO Evil

Post by RocketScientist » Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:24 am

Morgaln wrote:As an aside, this comic was somewhat late to point this out, even when it started. By the time of D&D 3.5, which Goblins is using
Goblins is primarily 3.0, with some 3.5 thrown in.
http://goblinscomic.wikia.com/wiki/Goblins_FAQ wrote:
What RPG system is the Goblins comic universe based on?
The Goblins world is based off the d20 system Dungeons and Dragons version 3.0 with added home-brew elements and the 3.5 system.
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