December 24, 2015: For given values of Okay

[Arch Lich Burns]

Fails: I belive critisism is very important, to help one get better. I think the critisism is fair, and nobody here has been rude with said criticism.

[Guus]

For me personally I'd like to add: the combination of things in both story telling and RL stuff that happened added up to something that is at least mildly frustrating for me. The whole thing with BA and the things that happened within the comic are things I am, quite frankly, dissappointed with. I feel like I understand the message THunt wants to get across, and in my opinion he has made a couple mistakes in that regard, and then handled the criticism poorly.

In general, I do still enjoy the comic, and I do still look forward to every next page. I am hoping that this part of the comic is finished up as fast as possible, so we get back to the actual story. I'll stick around, in general I like the comic.

So yeah, I don't think I've been "spiteful", it at least wasn't my intention. If so, I apologize.

[FailsWildly]

Arch, I agree. Helpful, well thought out constructive criticism should be welcome. I disagree when you say nobody has been rude. Take Guus for example. At first glance their comment seems fine. Then a person might think otherwise. "I hope this part of the comic finishes quickly so we can get back to the actual story." That's pretty hurtful. This part of the comic IS part of the story whether you like it or not. Just because you don't like a portion of the story does not suddenly make it not part of the story. Then the whole "spiteful" comment. Putting quotes around it could easily be construed as, "I believe I am right and I'll halfhearted say I'm sorry by being backhanded about it, but it's fine because I said sorry." That doesn't negate the comment, it makes it more insulting.

I don't think Guus was intentionally trying to make the tone of their words seem a little bit aloof and condescending, but someone could easily construe it as such. People read into things and get their feelings hurt very easily.

Thunt has apologized for the way he's telling HIS story and I think that's wrong. We've forced him to think he needs to say sorry for something someone read into and make assumptions on their own.

Yes, he has handled some criticism poorly and reacted in a non-professional manner, but a lot of it was really unfair criticism and now he's unintentionally defensive of any criticism. It's going to take time for him to accept helpful criticism because he's so used to be called sexist or a rape supporter or a bigot. It hurts to be called those things, even if the person who said it was clearly a jerk trying to make someone feel bad. It still hurts. Especially when said person is trying really hard to support rape victims and rights for women and equality for all.

Also, for the record Guus, I am sorry I used your post as an example. In no way was I attempting to call you out. I was merely trying to point out what someone could think of another person's words even if they thought incorrectly. I have no I'll will towards you or your comment. Again, I was merely pointing out what someone could interpretate something harmless to something malicious.

[Guus]

Don't worry, I know what you mean. I'm not easily offended. I can give pretty harsh criticism, it would be unfair of me to not accept criticism myself. English is not my first language, sometimes I choose the wrong words and get a different tone across than I mean to. At the same time I think I come across as rather proficient with the language, so I might confuse others with seemingly intentional things that are actually mistakes. And sometimes I'm just flat out wrong in how something is or should be, that happens too.

With actual story I meant the grand narrative for both parties. Which might actually very well be different than I envision it to be, but I guess I'll see if that's the case.

[Thunt]

Did they seriously crash down for several hours of sleep while being hunted by a murderous paladin bent on their destruction? And the reason they put up a watch is not him but Minmax? I hope someone comes along and kills them all, because at this point they deserve everything terrible happening to them for their stupidity.

None of them have any reason to believe that Kore can find them. Forgath is the only one who knows lots about this dungeon crawl. So I don't see how it's stupid to not react like Kore is on their heels.

Do they have any reason to believe that Kore can't find them? They've been through three rooms so far and we haven't seen a single branch on the way. If Kore goes into the dungeon, all he has to do is follow a straight line right to them. Even if there were branches we haven't been shown, he might still find the correct way through luck, skill or magic.
Is Kore unable to enter the dungeon crawl? If so, why? Even if he is, how do they know he isn't able to enter it? Maybe Kore knows more about this dungeon crawl than Forgath knows? The GAP cannot know whether he does or not. If he knows more than them, he might even be able to move through the dungeon more quickly than them. The GAP cannot know where Kore is and the possibility that he is in the dungeon and right on their heels is very real. He might even know where the exit of the dungeon is and make his way there around the mountain. The longer they dawdle, the greater the chance he'll arrive there before them.
Also, for them, Forgath was last seen losing the fight against Kore. Who has already proven to them that he will torture people to get what he wants. Like, say, information about the dungeon crawl they just entered. So Forgath knowing a lot about the dungeon is a danger to the GAP more than anything else at this point.

If they ignore all of the above or don't even consider it on the assumption that just entering the dungeon somehow makes them impossible to find, yes, they are stupid and deserve everything that will happen to them because of their stupidity.

Let's take a look at this. In order to be running for their lives in a panic that Kore is "right on their heels", we have to accept the following assumptions as fact.

1. The group all assume that Kore figured out a way to get through the dungeon entrance that slammed shut with a massive, stone wall that swallowed the key, the key hole it goes into and you know... the door itself.
2. The group assume that Kore then managed to escape the rope room all by himself.
3. The group all assume, for no reason at all, that Kore knows tons about the dungeon crawl (this was your suggestion, so let's include it).
4. The goblins (who know that Kore is willing to torture) leap to the assumption, for no reason at all, that Forgath knows tons about this dungeon crawl.
5. Minmax (who knows pretty much nothing about Kore) leaps to the assumption, for reason at all, that Kore is all about torturing and will torture Forgath for info.
6. Minmax (who has no idea where he even is) leaps to the assumption, for no reason at all, that Forgath knows tons about this dungeon crawl and can therefore be tortured into giving Kore the secrets of the crawl. Remember how Forgath totally didn't know how to get through the entrance? Remember how everyone saw Forgath not knowing how to get through the entrance? Still, they all assume that Forgath is the go to guy for info on this crawl.

If you really want to come up with a good reason why the group should be afraid of Kore finding them, you should consider the Axe of Prissan. Paladins can sense its evil from a fair distance. That makes them easier to track. At any rate, I just don't see it as realistic that they'd all come to those conclusions enough to be running for their lives. It's a safer bet to assume they've lost him and (at least for now) he can't follow. Even if it's not the smartest conclusion to make, it's the one that 'this' group would make.

[Thunt]

None of them have any reason to believe that Kore can find them. Forgath is the only one who knows lots about this dungeon crawl. So I don't see how it's stupid to not react like Kore is on their heels.

For the past however-many pages, people have been wondering why no one seemed to care about Kore anymore. Forgath didn't seem at all concerned that either Kore was hunting down his best friend or was off to murder everyone in his clan for being 'tainted', and the GAP didn't seem at all concerned that Kore could've been right on their heels if he somehow made it into the dungeon. There was a lot of opportunity there for dramatic tension and hard character choices, like Forgath choosing to either save his friend or run off to warn his clan about Kore.

Instead of this obvious and logical progression to the story, though, we're left with very little. Minmax and the GAP are continuing on almost like nothing happened, and Forgath seems like he's about to go off on a completely unrelated quest with 3 strangers. All of this without any of the characters so much as acknowledging the whole Kore situation.

It's disappointing to see this narrative potential be dropped like this for no substantial reason (or is it that the potential was never recognized?). We should've been on the edge of our seats this whole time wondering what either group is going to do about Kore, how they're going to escape in time, etc. Instead we got several infodumps from rabbit girl and Minmax 2.0 and a few lame (imo) jokes here and there from both parties.

Your points about Forgath's reaction are pretty strong. I should have shown his desire to save Minmax as being stronger, you're right. His desire to get in there has been mentioned, but it would have been better to show him with a more intense reaction. Yelling at Bowst with "I need to get to my friend!", etc. Or at least explaining why Forgath thinks that Kore will take awhile to get into the dungeon.

The comic hasn't shown his reaction to the quest dumped at his feet and there's a reason for that. But the other Forgath points are right.

[Thunt]

So we are expected to know what time of day it is Without referring to the light in the background? Even if said light is outside?

No. I'm saying that there's no reason to assume that it was "noon". I didn't say "It wasn't noon and you should know that", I simply asked "Why are saying that it was noon as though it's established fact?"

[Thunt]

SNIP

Look, I may make you, or others mad and I don't mean too, honest, but all you've managed to do with this post is prove yet again that no one should dare question you. You didn't hide your spite very well. The venom behind that post is obvious. I know I'm not the only one who sees it. You really need to teach yourself to accept criticism. You aren't above all of us peons Hunt. You should be grateful that people question, hell, even complain. It shows that you still have folks who care enough to bother. Every single "complaint" has been valid and you just brush it off or get angry and scream how you are persecuted, or whatever. That is all I have to say on the matter. I will attempt to refrain from commenting on the Comic here again in the future. No promises though.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hang on a second.

Look, I reacted with grump and I think I overdid it. But you're not being remotely fair. "...prove yet again that no one should dare question..."? What are you talking about? I've been saying for over a decade, that most of what I learn about this job is from listening to readers. I humbly thank readers on a literal daily basis. I have repeatedly supported complaints about the comic. You have every right to complain and as readers, you're right a scwillion times over. But I have just as much right to respond with what I honestly believe, don't I? I responded to your comment with a long, detailed answer that broke down, point by point why I believe that you're wrong about what you said about that page. Again, I got a little too catty and I apologize, but a long, detailed response is actually me listening to you and taking everything you're saying, very seriously. I didn't roll my eyes and click away, I didn't insult you and move on, I answered you with legitimate reasons why I think that you're wrong. And now you're the one responding by insulting me. You didn't come back with reasons why you disagree or further details of your opinion, you just decided to insult me.

I should be grateful? You have no idea how grateful I am and have constantly been since day one. I have an open invite for fans to come and stay at my home, because they're the reason why I live here. I send free merchandise via the live feed over and over as repeated "thank you"s. And of course, I've ended every blog post for the past decade with a thank you in some form. My Patreon is plastered with "thank you"s. I've been recreating G:AR and have had meetings with a company to insure that the Kickstarter supporters get what's coming to them, when I could have walked away. I have a lot of flaws but calling me ungrateful? So untrue.

"Every single "complaint" has been valid and you just brush it off" God lord. Seriously? Long posts directly responding to everything you're saying is the opposite of brushing you off. This is now the second post in which I directly address each of your points at length. Again, I got big flaws, but brushing you off? Come on.

"...or get angry and scream how you are persecuted, or whatever." The hell? Screaming? I have never claimed that I'm persecuted. I'm not persecuted at all. No one is saying this. And who's screaming? Like I said, I got grumpy (again, sorry about that) but angry and screaming?

[Thunt]

I didn't get venom and spite out of his post. A bit of annoyance or frustration, maybe.

I think venom or spite could be used to describe my reaction, sure. It's childish of me and I should be able to avoid feeling all pouty, at this point. It's hard to walk into the forum and find a long line up of people talking at various volumes about how lame I am. But that's everyone's right. I'd be a hypocrite to say people should stop or change what they're doing because I do it too. I complain about movies or books or whatever, too. What people are doing here, isn't wrong. My reaction was wrong, because I should know better by now.

It's hard to get the waves of negativity and not feel an ouchy sting, but this is part of the job. If I don't like it, I can go work at Subway or something. Also, a lot of these complaints are here for valid reasons. I've hit patches of unpopular plot repeatedly since I started Goblins. The honest, fair complaints are the best thing to help me improve. Sure, a lot of it is people just being jerks, but I know the difference between jerks and valid criticism.

So yeah, sometimes the internet can leave ya feeling like you suck hard. You just pick up your pen and try harder.

The point I'm making is that I shouldn't have gotten grumpy when I was answering people. The details I gave were legit, I just... should have chilled out first.

[Thunt]

-Nice stuff-

Thanks.

[Morgaln]

None of them have any reason to believe that Kore can find them. Forgath is the only one who knows lots about this dungeon crawl. So I don't see how it's stupid to not react like Kore is on their heels.

Do they have any reason to believe that Kore can't find them? They've been through three rooms so far and we haven't seen a single branch on the way. If Kore goes into the dungeon, all he has to do is follow a straight line right to them. Even if there were branches we haven't been shown, he might still find the correct way through luck, skill or magic.
Is Kore unable to enter the dungeon crawl? If so, why? Even if he is, how do they know he isn't able to enter it? Maybe Kore knows more about this dungeon crawl than Forgath knows? The GAP cannot know whether he does or not. If he knows more than them, he might even be able to move through the dungeon more quickly than them. The GAP cannot know where Kore is and the possibility that he is in the dungeon and right on their heels is very real. He might even know where the exit of the dungeon is and make his way there around the mountain. The longer they dawdle, the greater the chance he'll arrive there before them.
Also, for them, Forgath was last seen losing the fight against Kore. Who has already proven to them that he will torture people to get what he wants. Like, say, information about the dungeon crawl they just entered. So Forgath knowing a lot about the dungeon is a danger to the GAP more than anything else at this point.

If they ignore all of the above or don't even consider it on the assumption that just entering the dungeon somehow makes them impossible to find, yes, they are stupid and deserve everything that will happen to them because of their stupidity.

Let's take a look at this. In order to be running for their lives in a panic that Kore is "right on their heels", we have to accept the following assumptions as fact.

1. The group all assume that Kore figured out a way to get through the dungeon entrance that slammed shut with a massive, stone wall that swallowed the key, the key hole it goes into and you know... the door itself.
2. The group assume that Kore then managed to escape the rope room all by himself.
3. The group all assume, for no reason at all, that Kore knows tons about the dungeon crawl (this was your suggestion, so let's include it).
4. The goblins (who know that Kore is willing to torture) leap to the assumption, for no reason at all, that Forgath knows tons about this dungeon crawl.
5. Minmax (who knows pretty much nothing about Kore) leaps to the assumption, for reason at all, that Kore is all about torturing and will torture Forgath for info.
6. Minmax (who has no idea where he even is) leaps to the assumption, for no reason at all, that Forgath knows tons about this dungeon crawl and can therefore be tortured into giving Kore the secrets of the crawl. Remember how Forgath totally didn't know how to get through the entrance? Remember how everyone saw Forgath not knowing how to get through the entrance? Still, they all assume that Forgath is the go to guy for info on this crawl.

If you really want to come up with a good reason why the group should be afraid of Kore finding them, you should consider the Axe of Prissan. Paladins can sense its evil from a fair distance. That makes them easier to track. At any rate, I just don't see it as realistic that they'd all come to those conclusions enough to be running for their lives. It's a safer bet to assume they've lost him and (at least for now) he can't follow. Even if it's not the smartest conclusion to make, it's the one that 'this' group would make.

First of all, no one said "panic." Reasonable concern founded on realistic assumptions is more fitting. About your specific points:

1. Other people most likely have entered through that door before the GAP did. The proof is right there in the room with the ropes and all the adventurers who died there. Which means that door resets at some point and can be used again. They don't know much about the dungeon, as you pointed out, so they don't know how long that will take. Kore could indeed get into the dungeon at any moment and they wouldn't know he did.
2. It's one trap that wasn't especially hard to escape for them and Kore is a high-level character. They can't depend on that single trap to stop him permanently.
3. You brought up that Forgath is the only one who knows lots about the dungeon crawl. Since you apparently considered it relevant information to the issue, I commented on it.
4-6: I agree, the goblins don't know anything about Forgath and Minmax doesn't know anything about Kore, and they haven't compared notes so far. It's not something they'll act on, so whether Forgath knows anything or not isn't really relevant to their decision. That doesn't change that they don't know how much Kore knows about this dungeon. If he knows nothing, fair enough. But he could know more than they do, and that knowledge would be dangerous to the GAP.

It is never a safer bet to just assume that they've lost Kore. If Kore catches up to them, he will kill them. They escaped last time thanks to a lucky trick. They won't be able to do that again and they won't be able to stand up to him in a straight fight, even with Minmax at their side (not that they trust Minmax anyway, so they won't depend on him helping them in the first place). That means they have to err on the side on caution and make sure he doesn't catch them, because if they're wrong, they're dead. It's not about whether they actually are in danger, but about whether they can risk being wrong about the assumption that he can't find them. In my eyes, they cannot risk it.

[Krulle]

What this page actually teaches me, is that the Goblins would've had the energy to move on while Minmax slept. Just a bit would've been enough to lose him.
They did not.
They may not trust him unconditionally, but sufficiently to be a (temporary) member of their party.

And Kore would not even be my issue in their place: if Kore knows the dungeon, he'll be faster anyway, but inside a dungeon there may be several paths, so after having passed a few rooms and halls, having taken steps without having examined all possibilities, they may well be safer inside the dungeon than outside. If Kore catches up, well..., if he takes or your group took the wrong turn and Kore overtakes you, lucky - he's gone,... if he doesn't get in before you're out, you're safe anyway,..., if he gets stuck inside too, just hope it's a trap's doing and you won't accidentally run into him.

[miados]

I read thunt as being mildly annoyed, but the thing with online text there is no voice to put tones and the like behind it so you are typically putting in what you want/assume people will be thinking based on what you have read/posted/experienced and if you think he is being rude I think it is at least partly because you want or expect a person to be rude when responding to what is said.

Anyway I got a lot out of this page. First they woke up which is great! it means they are all healed up and such. I mean look at minmax. he just dealt with the whole maze of many. There was no indication that he had a full rest between then and now that I can remember. Short rest sure but still. He dealt with the full maze and the huge moo battle royale and alt minmax thing then from there had the loss of kin then the loss of forgath as well as the battle with the gap and then the stuff that he did with the gap.

as for the gap they had to deal with kore. Sure most of it was running away but still. Then they fought forgath and minmax for a while and even after that Thaco had to deal with the monk things. once they had minmax again who knows how much time passed. They are in a dungeon crawl and sometimes those can go on for a long time. And light might not be a real indication since there is magical light and such in d and d.

The next part for me was about minmax being frustrated that now that he at least sees fumbles as someone instead of just a fleshy exp bag and fumbles is fond of him that he is annoyed the others aren't as willing to accept it. For kin he saw her as a person after a bit and she pretty much accepted it right away and maybe he is just frustrated that they aren't as accepting as kin was.

The last was minmax venting some mostly in my opinion due to frustration. I mean first he lost kin and not in a death way which in my opinion would have been easier to deal with than losing all trust and connection with her like the other kin caused to happen by obliviating the necklace that was made for the birthday.

Then he lost forgath and was stuck with goblins who he would have killed in all likeliness if he had not been emotionally stunted by not knowing what happened to forgath and his feeling of helplessness of wanting oh so much to help him but being unable to. this is verified to me by his saying how he misses his old party. (i dont really count the drow since well yeah)

With how he and kickasso were getting along he was maybe starting to feel like he had people again (i suspect he really fears being alone honestly to an extent or maybe it is abandoned but that is just my suspicion) Yet even though I think he feels a bit betrayed that he was being watched at night (which lets be honest any party would have done if for nothing else in case kore shows up which lets also be honest they needed to be at full everything to have even a sliver of a prayer to do anything) or maybe because he wasn't asked to keep watch felt like a stab in the back right to the face.

Finally the fact he only vented and yelled instead of leaving them says a lot to me.

Also yay the yumyuck berries are back. At least they have food in the dungeon crawl.

[Simon]

I hope everyone had a good Christmas/will have a good new year

Anyway, I wonder if Minmax would think about scooping up some of the moss. Could make a nice present for Forgath, because it's prized by dwarves or something, isn't it? If so, I wonder if it's valuable.

[spiderwrangler]

Anyway, I wonder if Minmax would think about scooping up some of the moss. Could make a nice present for Forgath, because it's prized by dwarves or something, isn't it? If so, I wonder if it's valuable.

Assuming it is yum-yuk, and given what we know about goblin palates differing from human, I wonder if they'll find it yuck-yum? "Once you get past the first bit, it's really good!"

[Simon]

Assuming it is yum-yuk, and given what we know about goblin palates differing from human, I wonder if they'll find it yuck-yum? "Once you get past the first bit, it's really good!"

Ooh yeah, that could one of the reasons why they had it at the war camp.

[Raza]

Did they seriously crash down for several hours of sleep while being hunted by a murderous paladin bent on their destruction? And the reason they put up a watch is not him but Minmax? I hope someone comes along and kills them all, because at this point they deserve everything terrible happening to them for their stupidity.

Yeah, both the extended GAP and Forgath do seem to be taking things pretty easily, considering the ongoing epic level murderous pseudo-paladin hunt.

Also, what's Big Ears thinking, still walking around like that? "It's just a dungeon room, what'd I need my armor for?"? That's probably going to come back and have some sort of consequence.

[SpeaksManyLanguages]

I agree with RS that i didn't read Thunt's original response as venomous or spitefull, or any sort of dismissing. It was exactly a correct response of an author that is able to take criticism. It was exactly doing that! Come on...

On the GAP not thinking about Kore: remember, they've spent probably quite a few hours looking for an exit in the very first room, in which anyone entering the dungeon is splashed into. They probably had worries about Kore back then, but hours passed and nothing happenned. They've worried up anything there was to worry. That's enough to feel like exploring a dungeon "safely" from that danger.

On the Forgath: ever since almost dying everything that happenned to him was a total WTF, constantly. I'm surprised he fell asleep easily with all of it. In his place, I would probably not be able to sleep at all. We didn't really had a chance yet to hear from him, his reasoning, what is he planning to do now.

On the goblins again: I agree with Kruelle that it was VERY interesting that goblins didn't just leave Minmax there and continued on without him.

[Dannon]

Hi all! Been ages since I posted, but I just can't help myself today, sorry... xD Best wishes all!!!

Anyway! I can't help but grin at all the detailed analysis going in about the most efficient actions people could take. I always look at this comic with my olde D&D hat on. And I'll have to accept that maybe other groups indeed take forever to analyse the best course of action. But... I also sure as hell know we only did so in after-action-reports (read: "Party wipe huh? Oh boy... what did we do wrong now?")

I still remember DM'ing, having a big bad chasing the party, and the party forgetting about that because oh cool room/loot/discussion/sheet comparison/levelling up. And sitting behind the screen, slowly increasing a counter while the doom they should know about approaches... silly silly little peons... And the epic "oh crap" from the party when they realise, oh darn, yes, we had four golems chasing us, euh, oops? xD I sit here rooting for Kore a bit, I have to admit Just my DM hat on, mind you!

Yeah, I also enjoy the story for the story, I like good characters, also did so in my games. But what I adore about *this* comic is that it is a story about a world where gamers are going through a story, seen through the eyes of their characters. And, even if it isn't intentional (although I often hope it is!), I enjoy moments when it seems characters do something stupid / forget something / take the path of most resistance and no sense, as that is what my gaming group would often do as well, and it bring back happy memories

Much rambling, sorry! Just epically enjoying this, including the entire detailed anysis of what *would* have been best Makes me miss D&D. Sniff.

Anyway. Best wishes all!!!

[Dannon]

Your points about Forgath's reaction are pretty strong. I should have shown his desire to save Minmax as being stronger, you're right. His desire to get in there has been mentioned, but it would have been better to show him with a more intense reaction. Yelling at Bowst with "I need to get to my friend!", etc. Or at least explaining why Forgath thinks that Kore will take awhile to get into the dungeon.

May I disagree...? xD

My experience at the gaming table has often been that although, yes, in character we should indeed feel very distressed at loss of a partymember (or them getting seperated), it was always also order-of-the-day that it would be forgotten by players, something requiring a prompt from the DM "Guys, aren't you forgetting something?". Unless RP XP was awarded. Then everyone at the table aspired to a role in a Shakespear play xD

Minmax ain't dead. Although even as players they might not be aware (we did step-outs in these situations, so the rest often didnt know if the rest was still alive). Although I agree that if this was a book I could have appreciated more reaction from Forgath, this happened to give me the vibe of "Oooh! Just like at the table!", made me feel the connection to D&D again, and I saw the "Here is the quest!" as "DM: Okay guys, get moving again". As a player I would happily accept the quest, knowing that the DM would work to bring the party together again. No sense in moping around.

Hum. Maybe I am naive though. And other DM's would merrily lead me away to die? xD

[CelekDraco]

First off, I've got no complaints about the story so far.

I would just like some clarification about MinMax's 'extra' fingers in the last panel. I'm seeing 5 fingers and no thumb, and it's a little disturbing. Unless the furthest back finger is his thumb, in which case it's not supposed to be covered by the glove?

Thanks!

[Krulle]

heh, you're right.

Something's wrong there.
The line above shows that only two fingers are gloved, but the last panel shows three gloved fingers.

Well spotted, CelekDraco!

[Krulle]

Anyway, I wonder if Minmax would think about scooping up some of the moss. Could make a nice present for Forgath, because it's prized by dwarves or something, isn't it? If so, I wonder if it's valuable.

Assuming it is yum-yuk, and given what we know about goblin palates differing from human, I wonder if they'll find it yuck-yum? "Once you get past the first bit, it's really good!"

below the spoiler is a tweet from Thunt, which might give you an answer to the question whether the Goblins know it, and whether Minmax will pick some up. Likely from next page, which should go up on Friday.

► Show Spoiler

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