December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

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spiderwrangler
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December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by spiderwrangler » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:32 pm

Well, they have a quest now... delivered very videogame-like to our party.

http://www.goblinscomic.org/12102015-2/
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Talos
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Talos » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:13 pm

Why not "her"? Because that's how the English language works. Any attempt to say otherwise is liberal language-policing and attempting to control how one speaks in the name of a radical left-wing agenda worthy of Big Brother.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Xavier78 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:30 pm

Wait, so I'm supposed to believe that Forgath will just forget all about Minmax (who he is well aware is in mortal danger), his best friend, and stay with these two strangers he met barely a day ago (who aren't)? I mean, I guess he can say no still, but it doesn't seem to be going that direction.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by spiderwrangler » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:40 pm

Talos wrote:Why not "her"? Because that's how the English language works. Any attempt to say otherwise is liberal language-policing and attempting to control how one speaks in the name of a radical left-wing agenda worthy of Big Brother.
They don't speak English, they speak Common, which has been translated to English for your reading pleasure. Nor do they exist in 'Murica or any other Earthly equivalent, so cultural and language norms very well could be different.
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Talos » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:22 pm

spiderwrangler wrote:
Talos wrote:Why not "her"? Because that's how the English language works. Any attempt to say otherwise is liberal language-policing and attempting to control how one speaks in the name of a radical left-wing agenda worthy of Big Brother.
They don't speak English, they speak Common, which has been translated to English for your reading pleasure. Nor do they exist in 'Murica or any other Earthly equivalent, so cultural and language norms very well could be different.
You know as well as I do that that is just an attempt to handwave away the truth of the matter. No matter what " translation " it is, the fact remains that a language, or a translation, still has to obey rules. Trying to warp the public's speech patterns in the name of anything is still wrong. "Equality" is no excuse, any more than "safety" is.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by spiderwrangler » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:27 pm

Sounds like someone had a traumatic run in with pronouns that took her lunch money. >:?
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Talos » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:42 pm

spiderwrangler wrote:Sounds like someone had a traumatic run in with pronouns that took her lunch money. >:?
Do you have an actual reply, or just a weird, lame joke? If you have nothing of substance to say, you have conceded the point.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by spiderwrangler » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:47 pm

I could get enraged about how words are ruining society, but you've got that covered, so I'll just add you to the ignore list and go about my day. Don't blow a blood vessel thinking about how pronouns are ruining the country.
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by FailsWildly » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:53 pm

Is there seriously an argument about the pronouns of a fictional gender less creature that can't even talk let alone determine what it'd like to be called? Or am I missing the joke here?

I mean, it's a ball of... uhh actually what is Salt made of again? But in all seriousness, really? I mean, really, really? The thing doesn't seem to care one way or another.

Anyways! I can't imagine Forgath's just abandoning poor Minmax right now. Even if he does feel obligated to stop some unspeakable horror running rampant on his account.

I wonder how different from Junior this thing is.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by RocketScientist » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:09 pm

Goddamnit, I hate it when I'm sailing along through life on Easy Mode, and somebody comes along with a Radical Pronoun!! Image :fume:
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Talos » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:20 pm

RocketScientist wrote:Goddamnit, I hate it when I'm sailing along through life on Easy Mode, and somebody comes along with a Radical Pronoun!! Image :fume:
I don't like it when people try to slip in propaganda into comedy. Like trying to sneak poison inside candy. Yes, I know I'm exaggerating, but you get the point. Keep gender pronoun ideological politics out of it.

Or you could say that it is people like me who insist on keeping it "him" when the subject in question has no gender or has an unknown one. This is why BB-8 is called by male pronouns. Even looks a bit like the Kliks, come to think of it. "It" might work too, in some cases.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by BlueAmaranth » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:54 am

I can't believe language evolves to reflect changing social values, just like it has literally always done since its inception. This is horrible. The objectively correct way of speaking English was irrevocably laid out just around the time I, personally, learned the language. This includes not only rules of grammar, but also arbitrary stylistic conventions. Everyone is doing it wrong now and I am frankly disgusted.

Also, if my peers side-eye me for using male pronouns as the default, that's comparable to a tyrannical dictatorship where I'm under constant government surveillance and can be physically and psychologically tortured by the authorities at the first hint of disobedience. I'm going to bring up this 100% legit comparison immediately, because if there's one thing I can't stand, it's people shoehorning their politics into things!
Last edited by BlueAmaranth on Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:09 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:57 am

Or you know salt may actually think of herself as female and thus her. Also, why should i care if it grammatically incorrect in saying her or ver? Language constantly evolves, and this is one part that needs to

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Krulle » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:01 am

I agree with BlueAmaranth. Although her and my version of English greatly differ, because of the set point in time defining the rules for me.


But I find it interesting, that apparently any klik can transform into the horror-version by eating sufficiently positives.
Because Salt's soul was fine before she (I'll remain feminine, as that is the pronoun first used for Salt) ate the Axe, yet she'll become horrific when she eats too much positives.

So, no more positives for any klik, except if they need healing.
(Weirdly, our Klik ate plenty of metal, do we know what his positive was?)


(It is nice that the German language has a "neutral" pronoun - makes grammar slightly more difficult, but allows for more leeway in this modern comedy called political correctness.)
I find political correctness a necessity, but sometimes it is going too far. too far by far, up to the point you cannot use descriptive terms anymore. Describing a burglar as "black" has brought charges of racicsm against me ... :p

BTW: now it's Sword of Racism. Interesting how fast Ward found out how to do that.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Sessine » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:14 am

Talos wrote:
RocketScientist wrote:Goddamnit, I hate it when I'm sailing along through life on Easy Mode, and somebody comes along with a Radical Pronoun!! Image :fume:
I don't like it when people try to slip in propaganda into comedy. Like trying to sneak poison inside candy. Yes, I know I'm exaggerating, but you get the point. Keep gender pronoun ideological politics out of it.

Or you could say that it is people like me who insist on keeping it "him" when the subject in question has no gender or has an unknown one. "It" might work too, in some cases.
Language only exists because actual people need to communicate. That means people get to change their language when it isn't working for them. And they do. When a change happens, no amount of indignation or flourishing of ancient grammar textbooks can hold back the tide. You (generic you) can be a diehard about the old generic 'he' if you like, but these days you're not going to get much sympathy.

(In the past ten years I've noted increasing acceptance for the 'singular they' solution. I predict that's going to become the new standard. There's precedent: "you" became both plural and singular a long time ago. It has the advantage of not requiring a new word, just a little loosening of the rules... a move which English-speakers have very often shown themselves more than willing to make.)

Ward, however, isn't engaging in pronoun politics. He's being scathingly sarcastic, as he tries to be with every syllable he utters. He says 'her' because he hates this stupid fleshbag language that is so pathetically inadequate to discuss Kliks. By choosing the opposite pronoun from the one Bowst (at least) is expecting, he also confuses and irritates Bowst, whom he dislikes most of all. This is a plus.

Idle doesn't appear to care all that much. When she says "Why not 'her'?" she's not looking at Bowst. She's looking up at the axe, thinkng mostly about that. She speaks absently, not indignantly -- I would guess part of her mind is thinking, "Shut up about pronouns, Bowst, Ward's telling us something important!" Still, her quick tongue does come up with the obvious retort, and it's a minor bit of funny.


Edited to add: Where are people getting the idea that it was Salt who took a bite of the axe, promptly turned into an evil horror, and fled into the wilderness? Isn't that Salt right there in the background, looking on? I think Salt likes Forgath for some reason, and may well form part of the just-formed adventuring party.
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by nikohl » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:23 am

Krulle wrote:I agree with BlueAmaranth
...
But I find it interesting, that apparently any klik can transform into the horror-version by eating sufficiently positives.
Because Salt's soul was fine before she (I'll remain feminine, as that is the pronoun first used for Salt) ate the Axe, yet she'll become horrific when she eats too much positives.
I also agree with BA. As usual :>

As for the rest of it - Salt didn't eat any of the Axe of Racism, it was a different Klik. And the transformation is when they eat weird magic items, and then a bunch of their positive, not just their own personal positive. Or at least that's what I understood from the page?

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Krulle » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:36 am

Dang, that's my sleepiness speaking.
Thanks for pointing that out.

So, whichever klik ate it...
But I find it still weird that a magic item causes the same problem as a faulty soul-less klik.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by BlueAmaranth » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:41 am

I'd bet money that Ward is making the whole thing up to manipulate the party for some purpose we'll find out later. Otherwise, I think the events he's describing would have taken place onscreen. He's also making a huge deal out of how much he definitely doesn't want to do what they, sigh, HAVE to do now, he guesses. It feels like misdirection to me.
Sessine wrote: Language only exists because actual people need to communicate. That means people get to change their language when it isn't working for them. And they do. When a change happens, no amount of indignation or flourishing of ancient grammar textbooks can hold back the tide. You (generic you) can be a diehard about the old generic 'he' if you like, but these days you're not going to get much sympathy.

Well put!

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Zathyr » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:18 am

Sessine wrote:(In the past ten years I've noted increasing acceptance for the 'singular they' solution. I predict that's going to become the new standard. There's precedent: "you" became both plural and singular a long time ago. It has the advantage of not requiring a new word, just a little loosening of the rules... a move which English-speakers have very often shown themselves more than willing to make.)
There's further precedent in that the singular "they" has seen use for centuries, and has only received criticism for a little over one century. I myself have been using "they" for preference in gender-ambiguous situations for a little over 20 years, after hearing and seeing it used in journalism. It also puts me in mind of the "royal we" to some extent, which I also enjoy. :)

Pronouns!

Anyway, the comic: we learn a bit more about the kliks. These things are a lot more dangerous than I thought. All they have to do is eat one bite of the wrong magic item and they can become some terrible horror like Junior that can grow in power to demi-god status? And apparently they don't even know ahead of time if an item is going to do that, and they have voracious appetites.. Also they're enlisting the help of adventurers, so they don't police themselves in this regard... That sounds like more than enough grounds for some overly zealous group to try and wipe out their entire species. :?
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Talos » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:23 am

Sessine wrote:
Talos wrote:
RocketScientist wrote:Goddamnit, I hate it when I'm sailing along through life on Easy Mode, and somebody comes along with a Radical Pronoun!! Image :fume:
I don't like it when people try to slip in propaganda into comedy. Like trying to sneak poison inside candy. Yes, I know I'm exaggerating, but you get the point. Keep gender pronoun ideological politics out of it.

Or you could say that it is people like me who insist on keeping it "him" when the subject in question has no gender or has an unknown one. "It" might work too, in some cases.
Language only exists because actual people need to communicate. That means people get to change their language when it isn't working for them. And they do. When a change happens, no amount of indignation or flourishing of ancient grammar textbooks can hold back the tide. You (generic you) can be a diehard about the old generic 'he' if you like, but these days you're not going to get much sympathy.

(In the past ten years I've noted increasing acceptance for the 'singular they' solution. I predict that's going to become the new standard. There's precedent: "you" became both plural and singular a long time ago. It has the advantage of not requiring a new word, just a little loosening of the rules... a move which English-speakers have very often shown themselves more than willing to make.)

Ward, however, isn't engaging in pronoun politics. He's being scathingly sarcastic, as he tries to be with every syllable he utters. He says 'her' because he hates this stupid fleshbag language that is so pathetically inadequate to discuss Kliks. By choosing the opposite pronoun from the one Bowst (at least) is expecting, he also confuses and irritates Bowst, whom he dislikes most of all. This is a plus.

Idle doesn't appear to care all that much. When she says "Why not 'her'?" she's not looking at Bowst. She's looking up at the axe, thinkng mostly about that. She speaks absently, not indignantly -- I would guess part of her mind is thinking, "Shut up about pronouns, Bowst, Ward's telling us something important!" Still, her quick tongue does come up with the obvious retort, and it's a minor bit of funny.


Edited to add: Where are people getting the idea that it was Salt who took a bite of the axe, promptly turned into an evil horror, and fled into the wilderness? Isn't that Salt right there in the background, looking on? I think Salt likes Forgath for some reason, and may well form part of the just-formed adventuring party.
Yes, people can change language. The people as a whole making organic changes over time, not a small clique of social justice warriors who take it upon themselves to change language for what they think is for the good of everyone else. The kind of change you describe is bottom-up, not top-down. Individuals in the arts, particularly those with an audience of any size, are part of the top, for these purposes. Like it or not, some people have oversized influence on language, which makes it all the more important that they do not push an agenda, no matter how good their intentions. Many newspapers and magazines use a singular they, but most people do not. In the age of the internet, the average person has more access to information and a wider audience than was even imagined before. The large media companies and their writers have lost control of the narrative. I see no reason to warp my language just because it would make a few lunatic SJWs happy. Might as well get rid of "mankind", "the rights of man", "all men are created equal", and "man cannot live by bread alone" while you are at it. At least 90% of the population won't bat an eye if one uses the generic "he", and if you want to complain about gender-inflection, might as well try the Romance languages. You'll have much more to complain about there.

The rules can change, but unlike most widely-spoken languages, there is no single authority or English academy which can govern these things. It is why the language, a Germanic remnant from the post-Roman dark ages (later mixed with a ton of Latin), absorbs so many words from other languages and re-purposes them at an astounding rate. Just look into the etymology of "wiki" or the older meaning of the word "computer."

I don't care what the characters had in mind, I care why the author (who is far left of center) has in mind. Why bother to put that in? Why bring it up at all? It isn't needed for the plot. No, it is him trying to sell his views, to inject just a bit of ideology into the narrative. I can also easily say that this would be seen as wrong by this crowd if "her" was brought up first and someone asked "why not 'him' " or something to that effect. More double-standards.

As it is, most people I know use the generic "he", apart from a few annoying twits who inject "or she." I know there is a movement against it, but "he" is how it works. And singular they is problematic, given that "they" refers to more than one person. It doesn't always make sense. Unless I am compelled to by the standards of a workplace or university (this has never been a problem for me yet, in spite of graduating from grad school!), I do not use a singular they, although I know the use of "they" in such a manner is older than most people think.

Now, I don't think I will get anyone to change their minds here. It isn't my goal. Mainly, I want to keep the pressure up, keep up the right against this Social Justice Warrior nonsense. Let them know that they cannot and will not have their way, at least, not without resistance. Can't let them think they own language or culture, now can we?
Last edited by Talos on Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by nikohl » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:34 am

Hi! This isn't the place for your 'campaign'. This is a place for discussion of the comic page. If you want to rail against lunatic SJWs and the mean people using lady-terms all over your manly man stuff et al, please take it to Controversy, where people will debate it with you if they feel like it.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Talos » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:36 am

It wasn't sufficiently controversial at first, but I see your point. Just note that it belonged here due to its direct relation to the comic. Of course, I am likely to run into a horde of people who will dogpile on me, no matter what points I bring up there. I've learned that having facts on one's side is not help in internet conversations most of the time. And for the record, you called it a 'campaign', not I.

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by nikohl » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:44 am

That's why there's a helpful little indicator when a post's been edited.

Your initial grumble about 'why not she' may have belonged here - the above paragraphs-long tirade against "social justice warriors" sure as hell didn't. Still, you're entirely welcome to have the discussion over there in Controversy, I'm not saying don't say it at all (although I personally disagree with you.)

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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Synch » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:45 am

Please let this be a segue to other characters, please.
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Re: December 10, 2015: Here, have a quest...

Post by Restomak » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:52 am

Amazing. First, we can't stop talking about the "sex curse" and now we're seriously arguing about a pronoun?

I'm done with the forums for a while.

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