November 6, 2015: You'd Be Cursing Too

[Guus]

Absolutely. I'm assuming Bowst is able to land a clean hit though, he's a warrior.

[spiderwrangler]

And this isn't his first time doing it. He very well may have botched the first few.

[SpeaksManyLanguages]

For similar reasons, the goblins and Minmax shouldn't hang around in that cave, sightseeing. Kore could be upon them any minute; with all the "sometime later" panels we had, it's strange he didn't catch up to them already. They should be hurrying along, trying to put as much distance between them and Kore as possible and hoping to find a place where the way branches so they can lose him for good.

They've spent an awfully lot of time in the very first room. If Kore were to enter the dungeon, he would have fallen into it, to them. So, they can be quite sure that the mouth of the entrance is closed and will probably be closed for a while.

I wouldn't be surprised, if Depths of the Dragon's Maw opens only once per party, or even just once a year at all.

I don't have anything to say about Forgath, though. I dislike this thread of the story too.

But do they know that? Can they be sure he won't be able to enter the dungeon? Maybe the entrance take an hour to reset, maybe a day, maybe a year. If it is a year, they're good; not that this is likely, since there were far too many corpses in that trap room for that, after a year they would be far more decayed. If it is just an hour, they really don't have much time. They cannot risk that he finds a way in and catches up to them and they cannot depend on assumptions. Also, Kore can go around the mountain; technically, he's even supposed to have access to a mount as a high-level paladin, so he could do so far quicker then they could. The longer they tarry, the closer he will be on their trail when they come out. They want that trail to be as cold as possible when he arrives at the exit so hopefully he won't be able to pick it up.

I believe they've spent multiple hours in the first room. No signs of danger calmed their senses.
The exit from the dungeon is on the other side of the mountain. A big mountain. They are travelling pretty much in a straight line, while Kore will have to make a big detour. We'll have to see, though.

The exit from the dungeon is at an abyss with a giant huge bridge over it (20x bigger in all directions that the one at the entrance). I predict there'll be some events storywise happenning there.

[mustache_man]

While I agree that decapitation is fairly quick and relatively painless and suffering free when compared to other methods, its very hard to chop off a head so cleanly with a sword. That said, while not ideal, its the best way available.

And I agree with others that said it before. The story isnt really doing it for me since the battle on the bridge. I didn't expect Forgath to despair and have a meltdown. He strikes me as too pratcal and level headed for that, but even so, he's taking it too lightly. Bowst and Idle seem one dimensional, because so far they are. They are the cursed characters that double as punchlines. Bowst showed a bit of his personality by being willing to do what it takes, but so far Idle has showed nothing interesting.

[nikohl]

I'm willing to give Idle and Bowst time. Minmax and Forgath were a bit one-dimensional in their early days too, but we had -aaaages- in which to learn more about them. These guys are brand new by comparison.

I'm trying to ascribe a sense of ...I want to say resignation? To Forgath. Of dwarven stoicism, of "well, this is my life now, I got beat the hell up and lost my best friend and now I'm trapped down here with these weirdos, I wonder what will happen tomorrow, probably more weird shit." It isn't coming across in the pages all that much, although when the Kliks ate his armour I saw it. And we've seen glimmers of his old self, where he maybe recognises traits of Minmax and Kin in the people he's been landed with, like Bowst's word-substitution and Idle's humour, and he lights up. But to be honest I think I'm applying the main emotion to the comic because I think that's what should be there. I'm not sure I'm seeing the resignation/stoicism in the pages or just wanting to see it because that's what I think he'd be feeling as the story played out around him.

[spiderwrangler]

To me, I attribute it to the human players that are behind MM and Forgath. Sure, accepting things and moving on might not be the most realistic, but human players aren't perfect, and RP is often influenced by metaknowledge. So if both players (and possibly other players representing goblins/Idle/Bowst... which has been discussed elsewhere) are sitting at a table, they may KNOW that neither is in immediate danger, and while their characters wouldn't know that, some of that ends up bleeding over into their RP decisions.

Herbert: "Ok, Minmax, you and the goblins see a super sexy goblin male on the Lust Pillar, they all turn to look at Big Ears and Fumbles keeps teasing Complains about being into hair..."
Minmax's player: "I'm glad Minmax is bald..."
[Herbert turns to Forgath's player]
H: "Ok, Forgath, while all this is going on, what are you doing?"
Forgath's player: "Well, it's late in the day, right? We probably need to eat something... I have a flint and steel, I'll make a fire."
H: "Ok, you manage to scrounge together enough kindling and wood to get a fire started, meanwhile Idle has managed to catch a pair of lizards and threaded them on sticks. The two of you are cooking dinner when Bowst walks up..."

[Morgaln]

To me, I attribute it to the human players that are behind MM and Forgath. Sure, accepting things and moving on might not be the most realistic, but human players aren't perfect, and RP is often influenced by metaknowledge. So if both players (and possibly other players representing goblins/Idle/Bowst... which has been discussed elsewhere) are sitting at a table, they may KNOW that neither is in immediate danger, and while their characters wouldn't know that, some of that ends up bleeding over into their RP decisions.

Herbert: "Ok, Minmax, you and the goblins see a super sexy goblin male on the Lust Pillar, they all turn to look at Big Ears and Fumbles keeps teasing Complains about being into hair..."
Minmax's player: "I'm glad Minmax is bald..."
[Herbert turns to Forgath's player]
H: "Ok, Forgath, while all this is going on, what are you doing?"
Forgath's player: "Well, it's late in the day, right? We probably need to eat something... I have a flint and steel, I'll make a fire."
H: "Ok, you manage to scrounge together enough kindling and wood to get a fire started, meanwhile Idle has managed to catch a pair of lizards and threaded them on sticks. The two of you are cooking dinner when Bowst walks up..."

This, right here, is a great example for why this whole "Minmax and Forgath are players" thing is detrimental to the story. The moment you start to think about things like this, all drama is immediately gone from the story. No one is in real danger; no one can really get hurt or killed. Even if Minmax or Forgath dies, they'll just create a new character. All the emotions and motivations of the characters are irrelevant, because they're not actually there.

For example, Minmax doesn't actually love Kin. His player just plays a romance. Suddenly, Minmax didn't grab Kin's leash in desperation; the player behind him decided to do it. You're no longer questioning why Minmax did this or what he thought. You just start asking why his player wanted that to happen. Whatever his motivation, he could do it easily, because for him, there are no lasting consequences. It didn't really matter; while the story might change, his life will not be affected by any choice he made. That it had terrible consequences for Minmax and Kin is irrelevant, because they're no longer actual characters, they're just invented people he is using to have an interesting game.

Likewise, you'll stop asking why Chief sacrificed himself fighting a hopeless battle and lying to the others about his injuries. You'll just ask yourself why Herbert decided to kill off Chief at this point. Or if you buy into the theory that the Goblins ar PCs, you'll ask why the player wanted his character to die. Is he leaving the game? or did he just not want to play Chief anymore? So will he come up with a new character? Regardless of why it happened, it no longer is about why Chief made that choice. It only is about why those who actually play decided to do it. The characters we see are no longer important. Their fate is inconsequential, because "no real people were harmed in the making of this story."

[nikohl]

Well...unless you subscribe to the idea that roleplayers really get into character. So it wasn't that "Minmax's player wanted it to happen", it was that "Minmax's player, totally in character, knew that's what Minmax had to do at that moment" - if you view the player as more of a really invested method actor, maybe. I know that when I roleplay, I sometimes don't do what I, nikohl, think is best in any given situation, or what's best for the party or best for the story or most dramatic or most materially beneficial or most logical... I do what I conclude my character would do, based on the personality and backstory I built for them and the story they've played out so far.

I'm just putting a counterpoint forward for discussion. I don't actually particularly disagree with you. Thinking about who is and isn't a PC messes with my head too much, so I just don't

[Morgaln]

That is of course true, Nikohl, and when I roleplay, my characters do a lot of things I wouldn't do. After all, it would be boring to play a character that's like me in everything, so those characters will of course behave differently from me in many situations. But spiderwrangler brought forth the "they are PCs" thing particularly as a reason why Forgath isn't behaving realistically at the moment, which is the exact opposite of considering her a really invested player.

[nikohl]

To continue offering counterpoints: Yes, but even really invested players sometimes have to suspend disbelief for the sake of the game like in spider's example. Hell, I had a game literally break down on the third session due to being stuck unable to play my character correctly and feeling like I couldn't continue. (Spoilered it below because rant!) - in this fictional situation, if we do conclude that they're PCs and so on, Forgath's player can't just go "Well, this was fun but I'm not able to play the game any more, thanks for having me" because a) it's made up in Thunt's head and b) the comic would end. Hell, maybe she did up and leave and the new non-freaking-out Forgath's a replacement. Maybe Forgath's a DMPC now! Aaand my brain hurts.

► Show Spoiler

Rant about railroads and plot/character interrupts: Instant dislike between my character and another because he's a stuck up dwarven warrior-prince with an aasimar paladin for an advisor and I'm a half-nymph rogue; personality clash central, thought it would be fun to roleplay but never got that far. First scenario, we end up trapped in the dwarf character's ancestral home which is under siege by waves of orcs when conveniently a messenger from MY character's home pops up to tell me her nymph mom's been kidnapped, at which point I say...well, my character leaves back through the secret tunnels via which we arrived. Everyone at the table including the DM looks at me like I'm an alien because clearly "the plot" is to defend the dwarven siege place right now, and I can't find that head exploding gif but that's my reaction when I tried to explain why there's no way I can legitimately roleplay "sticking around with some douche who doesn't even like me and is constantly mean to me, when my mom is in imminent danger." (the half-nymph was a teenager, Chaotic, etc... and besides, I'd go after my mom in her shoes too. Moms are important people.) After that point there was no way I could conceive of that she'd stay short of being 100% trapped, which she knew she wasn't...therefore she left. And I couldn't expect, and didn't really want, a solo adventure - I also wouldn't survive a solo adventure given that half-nymphs have +2LA and are comedy support characters - so I left the group. I imagine my character bravely wandered off to her certain death. Anyway, that was entirely off-topic but apparently it still irks me because I ended up rambling about it.

[Morgaln]

I think we're just proving my point; your counterpoints are all looking at the situation from the view of the player, not the character. It's all about whether the player is invested, whether she has to suspend disbelief or not. What Forgath the character would think or do is irrelevant because it's all the player's choice, not his. So if a realistic reaction from the character would be bad for the game, it takes second fiddle to what's good for the game. That's exactly the point I was making.

Also, I can absolutely understand why you're ranting. about that. It was perfectly in character for your half-nymph (I almost typed halph-nymph ) to leave. I don't like to play the plot at the cost of believable characterization, so I can very much relate. I've got a rant for myself there, but that would be off topic here, I'll share it some other time or in PM if you'd like to read.

[nikohl]

Of course what Forgath the character eventually does is ultimately up to his player, if he is a PC like we're pretty sure he is. But I disagree that I'm just proving your point (I'm certainly not disproving it! But I'm not trying to - probably can't, in fact - I'm just offering things up to prompt further discussion) and I definitely disagree that "what he would think or do is irrelevant"; it's not irrelevant. It might be tinged with meta-knowledge, because Forgath's player might know that there's no way out of the chasm and/or know that Minmax is alive, and try as she might she might not be able to put that entirely aside while roleplaying her character; it might be influenced by the player wanting to continue the game or be welcoming to new players at the table or not offend the GM or anything else like that, and therefore "play second fiddle" to an extent like you say, but it's not irrelevant. He's still living in her head and she'll still "think as him"; you roleplay, you know what I mean by that even if I'm wording it weirdly. (Edit: I know I'm sort of arguing semantics at this point, but maybe important semantics... irrelevant sounds so complete/final to me.)

Anyway, I guess my problem with your point is that you, whether for dramatic effect or not, went (paraphrasing and exaggerating a little) "well it's all bloody pointless then isn't it" and it feels like you almost threw the whole story in the bin just because we occasionally see hints of the people behind the curtain. I agree that it can break the tension at times, that it's actually kind of weird when you think about it too hard, that not knowing who's a PC and who isn't is very confusing... but I don't agree that because "it's not really them" it means nothing and we all might as well go do something else. I mean, every story ever told was written by someone. Every character in every novel, TV show, movie and so on's actions were authored, decided and directed by someone else who made those choices and plans for them... while 'roleplaying them', kinda, if you abstract it out. This story just has an extra layer of fictional someones in between the writer and the characters. And my brain hurts even more now. Thanks, jeez! I bet that doesn't even make sense when I read it back.

(And yes I do want to hear your rant, PM me! I like D&D stories.)

[Morgaln]

Ah, I see where you're coming from. Yeah, I was talking mostly in absolutes; I don't feel like you exaggerated with "it's all bloody pointless then," that's paraphrasing what I said pretty well. So if anyone was exaggerating a bit, it was me, which is a sign for how much this bothers me as I usually try to avoid absolutes. Of course Forgath's and Minmax' players are obviously people who try to actually play their characters and not just a bunch of stats, and thus their motivations are influenced by more than just the gain of XP, you have a point there.
However, while all stories have been written by someone, most refrain to point that out in the story. Breaking the fourth wall almost never works except in comedy, and even there it is difficult to pull off successfully unless you have negative continuity. I mean, TV or movie characters don't pause the show to give us inside information about the actors playing them, but this is how it often feels when Goblins refers to the players.

(My rant is not D&D but New WOD, but I'll send it to you later when I'm home and have more time).

[spiderwrangler]

I think nikohl expanded on things I was going to say pretty well, I personally find interest in the interplay between GM, players, and characters, and that level of understanding here on the part of the reader can add nuanced interpretations to scenes. I by no means am saying that it should be a crutch that should be used constantly in the story telling, or that it need by applied to every slightly awkward scene, but that knowledge on the part of the reader, for me, makes me a bit more forgiving of moving things along. I recognize that isn't the case for some, who seem to want overwrought emotional high drama all the time... yes, Forgath would likely be broken up about being separated from MM, but have you ever had to sit through someone at the game table wailing about their character's emotions for 30 minutes? It's exhausting just watching it. I'd rather have the response we have, and the pages we have since Forgath fell than have that same number of pages of him gnashing his teeth, tugging his heard and futilely trying to climb the walls of the chasm. I'm not saying that I feel the progression is seamless or perfect, and a more generally pleasing balance could be struck, but I'd rather err more to the side of advancing story than watching one character chew scenery in an emotional monologue.

In general, PCs in the vast majority of RPGs tend to 'get over it' much more quickly than if they were real people, due to the fact that they are being directed by players.

[BlueAmaranth]

Breaking the fourth wall almost never works except in comedy

Or in video games! I've played a number of fantastic games that leaned on or broke the fourth wall. Though I guess it's different when breaking the fourth wall means making the "audience" an active participant in the story.

[nikohl]

...Breaking the fourth wall almost never works except in comedy, and even there it is difficult to pull off successfully unless you have negative continuity. I mean, TV or movie characters don't pause the show to give us inside information about the actors playing them, but this is how it often feels when Goblins refers to the players.

(My rant is not D&D but New WOD, but I'll send it to you later when I'm home and have more time).

WoD! Even better. I wait with baited breath. Well... no, I don't. I wait with a cup of tea and Netflix. So not really waiting. But I look forward to it

I agree that breaking the fourth wall doesn't always work. I agree that it doesn't always work in Goblins too... but in fairness, the moments that the comic actively references the players/makes nod-to-the-real-world jokes are usually the comedy moments rather than the dramatic ones, so I've never found it horribly jarring. It's not like Kin touched Minmax's face in that tender moment after they bust out of the growing-tree-room in the Maze and Minmax grinned and went "Ha! Gaaay." Ugh, that annoyed me just to type it. I'm so glad that didn't happen

I think some shows do have that weird pause-and-explain-y thing though, just to be unnecessarily pedantic... not that I can think of any off the top of my head. Plenty of nudging the fourth wall "looking directly at the camera and making a face" though. But I thought there was something more overt than that and I can't remember it. And not like Scrubs, since J.D stays in character and in his own head... or HIMYM, where he does sort of tell-not-show explain voiceover as sort of the main thing, but still in character and "to the kids" not expressly to the viewer. That's going to bug me now! I'm sure I've seen something where the character directly addresses the viewer. Maybe I'm imagining it.

...and the pages we have since Forgath fell than have that same number of pages of him gnashing his teeth, tugging his heard and futilely trying to climb the walls of the chasm. I'm not saying that I feel the progression is seamless or perfect, and a more generally pleasing balance could be struck, but I'd rather err more to the side of advancing story than watching one character chew scenery in an emotional monologue.

That's a thing too, I s'pose. We could have kinda fastforwarded past the upset, and have been watching the GAMP while Forgath had his Emotions in the background. I think I'd feel a bit cheated if that were truly the case, though. It seems cheap. I'm going to carry on believing that Forgath is being a stoic dwarven badass resigned to his current situation and just dealing with it until he can make progress on getting back to Minmax instead.

[0z79]

Shouldn't Bowst punch himself in the face when he says "Relax, mr. level four"?

I'm hoping the comic picks up in quality soon. Suffering a mental breakdown is one thing, I get that, but when you only release about 1 or 2 strips per month, it should at least contain more than random filler jokes between Minmax and Fumbles. Also, when it takes such a long time to draw up a strip, it might be better to wait a few days until the strip is actually complete. The way the latest strip is drawn makes it hard to even make out the landscape, and everything seems very empty.

Here's hoping the pace and quality picks up in the future!

Do you have any idea what mental illness even is? 'Cause I don't have the time to write half a dissertation to fill in your apparent lack of knowledge.

Also, just in case you're new to web comic communities as a whole: that attitude of entitlement is very much frowned upon. These are either individuals or small groups who are producing artwork, stories and characters for us to enjoy, for free if you're poor like I am, and can't afford Patreon.

Even if I COULD afford it, I still don't think that would give me any right to get on the author's case about "late" updates; I'd just withdraw my support without giving the guy any more grief (and trust me, n00b: this guy has gone through a -lot- of grief.)

[nikohl]

Hi! I appreciate that Wolfe touched a nerve re: mental illness, I think I remember you mentioning you empathised with Thunt a while back; I get that you want to stand up for him, but please don't resort to name-calling. Even something as mild as 'n00b' - it just ends up causing arguments that could otherwise be avoided. Thanks

[Argh Blargle]

...
Guys, I am starting to wonder if I am the only one not bothered by the cartoon "gore" here. I mean, I feel like if there was a more pleasant option for Idle, they would have come up with it by now.

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but imo this is nothing compared to some of the stuff that went down in the big battle in Brassmoon. Big Ears also chopped off Saral Caine's head more graphically than this.

Also, "Pile of Dung" actually sounds more like the sort of thing that Forgath would say than PoS.

Just my 2c.

[Morgaln]

...Breaking the fourth wall almost never works except in comedy, and even there it is difficult to pull off successfully unless you have negative continuity. I mean, TV or movie characters don't pause the show to give us inside information about the actors playing them, but this is how it often feels when Goblins refers to the players.

(My rant is not D&D but New WOD, but I'll send it to you later when I'm home and have more time).

WoD! Even better. I wait with baited breath. Well... no, I don't. I wait with a cup of tea and Netflix. So not really waiting. But I look forward to it

I agree that breaking the fourth wall doesn't always work. I agree that it doesn't always work in Goblins too... but in fairness, the moments that the comic actively references the players/makes nod-to-the-real-world jokes are usually the comedy moments rather than the dramatic ones, so I've never found it horribly jarring. It's not like Kin touched Minmax's face in that tender moment after they bust out of the growing-tree-room in the Maze and Minmax grinned and went "Ha! Gaaay." Ugh, that annoyed me just to type it. I'm so glad that didn't happen

I think some shows do have that weird pause-and-explain-y thing though, just to be unnecessarily pedantic... not that I can think of any off the top of my head. Plenty of nudging the fourth wall "looking directly at the camera and making a face" though. But I thought there was something more overt than that and I can't remember it. And not like Scrubs, since J.D stays in character and in his own head... or HIMYM, where he does sort of tell-not-show explain voiceover as sort of the main thing, but still in character and "to the kids" not expressly to the viewer. That's going to bug me now! I'm sure I've seen something where the character directly addresses the viewer. Maybe I'm imagining it.

You might be thinking of Malcolm in the Middle, that one is pretty obvious. The narrator thing like in HIMYM is pretty common in TV shows, probably starting with the 80's show "The Wonder Years."
The only movie I can think of off-hand that does it is the Austrian film "Funny Games" a pretty gruesome movie about two young men who torture and kill a family for fun. It doesn't work at all there because the wall breaking is used to accuse the viewer as being partly responsible for what happens because they are watching the movie. Those who enjoy that kind of movie don't take kindly to that accusation and those who would agree won't watch the movie in the first place.

[RocketScientist]

Breaking the fourth wall almost never works except in comedy, and even there it is difficult to pull off successfully unless you have negative continuity. I mean, TV or movie characters don't pause the show to give us inside information about the actors playing them, but this is how it often feels when Goblins refers to the players.

This doesn't at all invalidate your point, but you just reminded me of the episode of Fresh Prince where he was trying to get into show business, and wanted his own TV show. Uncle Phil was all "they don't just give somebody with no experience their own TV show, you know!" And Will Smith looks at the camera and grins.

I think some shows do have that weird pause-and-explain-y thing though, just to be unnecessarily pedantic... not that I can think of any off the top of my head. Plenty of nudging the fourth wall "looking directly at the camera and making a face" though. But I thought there was something more overt than that and I can't remember it. And not like Scrubs, since J.D stays in character and in his own head... or HIMYM, where he does sort of tell-not-show explain voiceover as sort of the main thing, but still in character and "to the kids" not expressly to the viewer. That's going to bug me now! I'm sure I've seen something where the character directly addresses the viewer. Maybe I'm imagining it.

Peter Capaldi did it on Doctor Who a couple of weeks ago. The one about the Bootstrap Paradox ("Google it.")? link to quote

[nikohl]

I haven't seen enough Malcolm in the Middle to remember whether that's the one I was thinking of, but maybe it was, yeah. The Wonder Years was somewhat before my time and I'd never even heard of that film... kinda glad I hadn't heard of it too, based on your description :s

Rocket: I, to my shame, don't keep up with Doctor Who any more either.

[0z79]

as someone who finds beheadings hot in either gender

Way off topic but I don't care. You should seek professional help. That isn't normal, or charming, or anything but sick. Why you would feel the need to share something so stomach turning is way beyond my comprehension.

He actually made me scratch my head with that one. Geez, I thought -I- was dark for laughing at The Walking Dead...

[RocketScientist]

Rocket: I, to my shame, don't keep up with Doctor Who any more either.

That's it. You need to turn in your British citizenship card.

[nikohl]

But... I'm literally sat under a horrible brown-and-yellow crocheted blanket wearing two jumpers and two pairs of socks instead of putting my central heating on, drinking a cup of Earl Grey, and watching Have I Got News For You.

*clings to her card*