18 September 2015: back up

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Morgaln
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Morgaln » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:04 am

SpellsBedly wrote:
Sessine wrote:Well... if this page doesn't count as proof, then something very, very odd just happened.

I see only three possibilities, logically speaking, for the Goblins:
!. They are player characters. They were originally being run as a separate adventuring party, but plotlines have merged.
2. They are NPCs controlled by Herbert. Most of their adventures so far were written by Herbert for his own private amusement because... um, some DMs can just be like that? maybe he's a wannabe novelist, or
3. They are some weird independent manifestation of sentience created by the world itself.

Under Hypothesis 2, Minmax's player is on a solo adventure surrounded by Herbert's NPCs, and... nah, I can't buy it. Dynamics are all wrong.

Hypothesis 3? I don't even... well... maybe, but you gotta admit it's really weird.

The page simply makes the most sense - and is funniest - under Hypothesis 1.
Canonically it's option 3. The goblins are NPC's in a campaign world who have declared themselves PC's, they are independent minds running on the same rules as RPG characters.

Minmax though has a player. It doesn't come up much anymore, and it generally doesn't make much of a difference in terms of how he acts, but in this case it can be argued that his player is finding a way for him out of the situation by outright telling the Goblins, in character, because there is no out of character for them, that he needs to be stopped.

Ignoring that angle one could argue it's just good character development. Minmax still acts impulsively, but has gained a small amount of reflection on his previous actions. It's not a stand alone development, the though process to get to "struggle really, really, really hard" was an improvement over the one leading to "I'm going to pee on it!". Minmax is getting a bit less impulsive and more experienced. Maybe he even gained a point of intelligence or wisdom somewhere along the way?
How is option 3 canon? Did the creator of the comic say it anywhere? Because it's definitely not in the comic. In fact, the scene in which MinMax and Forgath meet the GAP after returning from the Maze of Many contradicts this option. If the goblins had gained independence from Herbert, the DM, that should have become obvious to both him and the established player characters (MinMax and Forgath) the moment they meet. I cannot imagine they would have just taken that without commenting on it. The far more likely result would have been that the game stopped right then and there. It would be the equivalent of a monopoly board (to use an example everyone probably knows) suddenly starting to move pieces and give out money all of its own; would you really just shrug and keep playing if that happened to you?
Even more so, the game wouldn't even have continued much earlier. When Minmax and Forgath meet Goblinslayer, the situation he and Brassmoon City are in is a direct result of the actions of the goblins. If they are independent minds, they changed the DM's world without his knowledge. As soon as Herbert focuses on hat part of the world (because the PCs arrive there), he should notice things are suddenly different. Are we to believe that Herbert is just ignoring that the world he designed and thus controls completely suddenly is different from where he left it at?

The most likely explanation is that the goblins are NPCs in full control of the DM, given class levels to make them more of a challenge for the players. That fits all the facts we have.

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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Zathyr » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:16 am

You're assuming Herbert designed the world. This isn't necessarily the case. Lots of GMs run from printed modules, and don't necessarily read everything beforehand. Herbert could very easily be oblivious to changes in the world, only looking at sheets as they become relevant.

"Oh wow, Complains of Names is a lot tougher now. What's this, barbarian levels? Goblins can do that?"
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by HerdsCats » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:33 pm

I'm pretty sure it's been said in the live feed that the goblins are NPCs who decided to get tougher in their own. As to whether or not Herbert knows this, I don't know. it may be that even though the goblins decided to take levels, Herbert still thinks of it as it being "his idea". It may be a matter of the two universes being to inexplicably linked that it doesn't matter whose idea it was or who caused what to happen.
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by RocketScientist » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:29 pm

Morgaln wrote:The most likely explanation is that the goblins are NPCs in full control of the DM, given class levels to make them more of a challenge for the players. That fits all the facts we have.
Maybe, but that turns our protagonists into supporting characters for Minmax and Forgath. Which means the comic should really be called Goblins: Explaining Herbert's Backstory for Some NPCs.

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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Sessine » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:56 pm

RocketScientist wrote:
Morgaln wrote:The most likely explanation is that the goblins are NPCs in full control of the DM, given class levels to make them more of a challenge for the players. That fits all the facts we have.
Maybe, but that turns our protagonists into supporting characters for Minmax and Forgath.
To my way of thinking, what really eliminates the 'normal NPCs under DM control' hypothesis is that the goblins have had way too many adventures on their own. As NPC backstory, it's total overkill. Not even slightly plausible.

Think about Chief, for instance. Herbert would have to have been spending all that time working out a long tragic story arc for an NPC who was going to die before the player characters could ever meet him. Then there's Dies and Fox, who went through an entire dungeon the player characters are never going to see.

There's just... too damn much. They can't be regular NPCs.
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Krulle » Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:25 am

They are not. They are the result of a "what if?" situation.
What if the players inside a world would suddenly become sentient and do actions of their own?
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Morgaln » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:43 am

Zathyr wrote:You're assuming Herbert designed the world. This isn't necessarily the case. Lots of GMs run from printed modules, and don't necessarily read everything beforehand. Herbert could very easily be oblivious to changes in the world, only looking at sheets as they become relevant.

"Oh wow, Complains of Names is a lot tougher now. What's this, barbarian levels? Goblins can do that?"
Irrelevant, actually. Once the two parties met, as soon as the goblins did something Herbert didn't want them to do, their independence would become apparent to him. Also, consider that Herbert and the players are sitting around a table in a basement somewhere, and the players are talking to the goblins. Who is telling them what the goblins are saying if not Herbert? Is the game world mind-controlling Herbert to make him say these things? Or are there disembodied voices floating around?
RocketScientist wrote:
Morgaln wrote:The most likely explanation is that the goblins are NPCs in full control of the DM, given class levels to make them more of a challenge for the players. That fits all the facts we have.
Maybe, but that turns our protagonists into supporting characters for Minmax and Forgath. Which means the comic should really be called Goblins: Explaining Herbert's Backstory for Some NPCs.
Unfortunately, yes, that is exactly what it does. It's the reason this bothers me so much.


I can think up a possible explanation that would fit everything and make this work the way most of you think it works, but there's no support for the theory whatsoever in the comic:

Herbert is using a very advanced (as in, science-fiction level) computer program with a mostly independent AI to randomize what happens in the game world. That AI is responsible for giving the goblins class levels and is determining their actions and reactions to the PCs and other game elements. That gives the goblins independence from Herbert without doing anything completely unexpected to him and the players, and also explains how the players even know what's happening without Herbert having to tell them. Of course it just turns "DM-controlled" into "computer-controlled", but you can't have everything...

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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Krulle » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:37 am

So, we're in a WoW-like world and watching as events unfold there.
We watch other players log on and play.
We watch Ai-controlled monsters evolve into bad-ass bosses?
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by HerdsCats » Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:35 am

I sorta got the feeling from the comic, and also tempts fate (despite not being considered "canon") that the universe in which our story takes place is a real world that is directly affected by players. That is to say, all things that happen in this world are happening whether or not there is somebody "watching". The DM picks up bits and pieces of this and incorporates it into what he tells the players. The players, in turn, occupy an almost godlike status in the game world because they have the ability to make almost whatever they want happen as long as the dice roll in their favor.

IMO, all the characters in game act independently of Herbert /until/ the player characters get involved. Then it's a joint effort between the NPCs and Herbert as to how they respond. Herbert might think he is setting the difficulty levels for certain outcomes , but I don't think he's in complete control of what happens. Rather, he acts as a sort of medium through which the NPCs communicate.
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Krulle » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:20 am

In which case the analogy to WoW would still work...
Herbert is one of the admins that can directly influence the game through settings...
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Zathyr » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:20 am

Morgaln wrote:
Zathyr wrote:You're assuming Herbert designed the world. This isn't necessarily the case. Lots of GMs run from printed modules, and don't necessarily read everything beforehand. Herbert could very easily be oblivious to changes in the world, only looking at sheets as they become relevant.

"Oh wow, Complains of Names is a lot tougher now. What's this, barbarian levels? Goblins can do that?"
Irrelevant, actually. Once the two parties met, as soon as the goblins did something Herbert didn't want them to do, their independence would become apparent to him. Also, consider that Herbert and the players are sitting around a table in a basement somewhere, and the players are talking to the goblins. Who is telling them what the goblins are saying if not Herbert? Is the game world mind-controlling Herbert to make him say these things? Or are there disembodied voices floating around?
Doesn't need to be mind control. It could all be part of character notes. Stat blocks could include strategy, dialog, typical actions and reactions. Then Herbert could run them as they're written, and it may just line up with how they act of their own volitions. Likely? :shrug: Makes about as much sense as any other hypothesis getting tossed around.
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by HerdsCats » Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:30 pm

It doesn't even need to be exact words either. Even though we as readers can see what is going on, there isn't any real evidence that the players know exactly what was said, EVERY time somebody has something to say. It's possible that Herbert only gives vague mention of what's going on, such as "ok, so the goblins decide they won't kill you just yet. Instead they're, oh I dunno, they're talking about that one guy who won't talk. What does Minmax do?"

@krulle - the problem with the WoW analogy is that the AI still has to be programmed. Our goblins are going against "program" so to speak, and taking adventurer levels. That would be like going into a meadow full of wolves that are supposed to be level 3-5, and discovering that four of them have decided to level up, and are now level 9 with spells and special abilities, and nobody else in the game knows about it except you.
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Dannon » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:33 pm

I hope the Goblins are full PC's.

Because that means that Chief's player can come back with another character. :)

I miss Chief, but if he was an actual PC, then his soul will return in another form. Yes yes yes.

I have hope :D I can identify with Vorpal. *nods*

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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Glemp » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:29 am

Dannon wrote:I hope the Goblins are full PC's.
I miss Chief, but if he was an actual PC, then his soul will return in another form. Yes yes yes.
Um...

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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Zathyr » Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:02 pm

That's not actually Chief's soul. That's Kore's IME. If Kore has Chief's soul, it's in his face. Or something.
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by nikohl » Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:03 pm

I might be missing something integral that makes my original assumption totally wrong and displaying my non-truefan status but I always assumed that the GAP were a separate PC group in the same world. I've played with DMs who run two different groups on two different nights, but the world is the same for both of them, so what one group does affects things for the other and vice versa - the DM describes the world events that have gone on since last session and whatever, and Group 1 might head back to town to meet their ally to find that the other group shanked him because they thought he was evil, or the town's full of orcs because of a messed-up diplomacy roll... I figured this was similar to that.

Now we're getting further into crossover territory and potentially several different groups it's a bit less easy for me to parse it that way though, and I'm edging towards "wibbly wobbly timey wimey the world wherein Herbert is DMing a game for his buddies is happening around them regardless and we're watching that story unfold", as headache-inducing as that actually is to rationalise using real world physics/brains/etc.

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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Glemp » Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:10 pm

Zathyr wrote:That's not actually Chief's soul. That's Kore's IME. If Kore has Chief's soul, it's in his face. Or something.
He does. Chief is in the middle just above the beard, where Kore's nose would be. He does not seem to be enjoying himself.

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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Zathyr » Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:24 pm

Maybe. It's hard to be sure, at this point. That looks a little bit Chiefish, but it could just be Thunt's art style.
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by Guus » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:15 am

To me, it doesn't look like Chief at all. Why would Chief have his eyepatch in Kore's IME but not in Kore's face?
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Re: 18 September 2015: back up

Post by BuildsLegos » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:18 pm

Last time I suggested the Goblins were PCs, I was shot down by non-believers; it's nice that some of you are finally starting to see things my way. In fact, if it's confirmed that Saves and/or the GAP are NPCs, -sorry Thunt, but- I'll take that as a Mass Effect-calibur betrayal.

Dannon isn't speaking religeously, that's just hope that Chief's hypothetical player rolls another character, ala the Drows.
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