5 March 2013: What Next?!

[RocketScientist]

Firstly: where did this idea of giving up on possessions come from? Am I missing something? I don't go to Ustream at all... did Thunt mention it or are we just guessing?

It can be extrapolated from the very fact that the Teapot is in there. It originally belonged to Kin's people, and now it is inside the maze. The only way it could have wound up in there, given the resetting nature of the dungeon, is if it had to be left behind by a previous person who entered the maze.

Or the person who brought it in looked at his/her counter, saw some incredibly high number, said screw that, and teleported out.

[BuildsLegos]

Secondly: If so, then how would you explain that the Jade Teapot is still there? You mean to tell me that it's so useless for the other countless of realities (at least 2 million since our FMK showed up) that nobody has taken it yet?

I am well aware that like all social gatherings, we have rules; but posts like yours make them very difficult to follow due to my low tolerance for stupidity. I very clearly said the treasure room resets like the rest of the maze. WHY DO YOU DO THIS TO ME?

[kdtompos]

That seemed unnecessarily harsh. I had the same question. You did, in fact, say that the dungeon reset. But if magic items left in exchange are a part of the new reset, my assumption was also that whatever they were exchanged for is no longer there. I would also like to add that this whole strain of thought is built off of a rather large assumption that there must be an "exchange" of items.

"Lost" is a rather ambiguous term.

[SccrD25]

Forgath is the one who said that a dwarf will kill him...the Fortuneteller just said he would die in battle with a dwarf. Picky, I know, but this is Thunt we're dealing with. We can pretty safely assume that every word of that prophecy, exactly as written, is a clue.

My theory is that FMK meet up with the GAP just as Kore arrives. Kore spots Kin, and attacks her. If Kore is a hero to dwarves, as I suspect he may be, then Forgath may be honor-bound to assist him. This will put him in direct conflict with Minmax, who will kill him out of love for Kin. This satisfies all the parameters of the prophecy: "in battle with another dwarf" in this context would mean "in battle beside another dwarf".

Or Junior is involved, because that guy is kind of a jerk.

Great mind think alike. I open a thread about 24 hour ago with my theory which is pretty much the same as yours..

I really cant see Forgath being willing to hurt Kin. He already had the change of heart with Thac0 and he was the one against Minmax killing Kin when they met. He became friends with Kin. I mean come on, look at the last panel here http://www.goblinscomic.com/01282011/

They're friends, they've been through a lot together now. I just cant see Forgath turning on a friend and trying to kill them just because Kore is a dwarf hero, honor-bound or not.

[RocketScientist]

I am well aware that like all social gatherings, we have rules; but posts like yours make them very difficult to follow due to my low tolerance for stupidity. I very clearly said the treasure room resets like the rest of the maze. WHY DO YOU DO THIS TO ME?

[mod="RocketScientist"]No personal attacks, please.[/mod]

Saying "you make it hard for me to follow the rules" is abusive language. Your negative reaction to a question is not someone else's fault.

[CelineSSauve]

I'm just waiting for the big reveal when I shall glower at the back of my mind (I do that a lot) and ask it why it didn't figure that you before now.

[BuildsLegos]

Saying "you make it hard for me to follow the rules" is abusive language. Your negative reaction to a question is not someone else's fault.

What I believe IS his fault, however, is misunderstanding the meaning of the word "reset". Nearly 2 million times, all 217 alts of FMK revert to how they were when they first entered. Is it really so difficult to understand that the treasure room also resets to that exact moment and that I was saying exactly that? I beg of you to understand that I was trying to politely explain to him him what he was putting me through with his misunderstanding in what I read as a hostel tone.

[rwstyles]

The page where Kin tells about the Jade Teapot says that it was lost, and is now said to be in the MoM. It does not say that it was lost IN the MoM. Anyone capable of building the MoM is capable of scanning multiple realities for "cool", lost treasures and taking them. Or duplicating them. If you had to trade treasures to get out, than I suspect that the word would get out, and people would be less willing to enter.

Also, logically should there need to be a first group, the one that first entered the Mom? The idea of 217 groups deciding to enter at the same time is .. odd. The maze can't continue to cycle an endless stream of FMK's forever. Surely when the original group wins, everybody goes home, just as they were, remembering only the last time through.

Since PsiMax made no mention of this, this information must not be available to him. Unless he looks at all of the counters to see which one has the highest count.

[BuildsLegos]

You're completely misunderstanding how the maze works. Of course 217 teams enter at the same time, as Kin specifically stated; because they're ALTERNATE REALITIES and the Maze of Many is OUTSIDE TIME. Again, just as Kin said. You also assume that an entity is actively maintaining the maze's operation, but I understand it to be a relic of a celestial war that has been running on auto-pilot for centuries. Even if there is such a master-mind, I doubt s/he/it would have authority outside the maze. And in-the-knows who despise a fair trade so much can just bring crap.

[SccrD25]

The page where Kin tells about the Jade Teapot says that it was lost, and is now said to be in the MoM. It does not say that it was lost IN the MoM. Anyone capable of building the MoM is capable of scanning multiple realities for "cool", lost treasures and taking them. Or duplicating them.

This. I like this.

Also, logically should there need to be a first group, the one that first entered the Mom? The idea of 217 groups deciding to enter at the same time is .. odd. The maze can't continue to cycle an endless stream of FMK's forever. Surely when the original group wins, everybody goes home, just as they were, remembering only the last time through.

Since PsiMax made no mention of this, this information must not be available to him. Unless he looks at all of the counters to see which one has the highest count.

But the MoM also twists time, so they didn't need to go in at the "same time" so to speak. I suspect that this MoM is actually one of many, all based off different general groups. For example, there's one full of versions of the GAP. We just don't see it because "our" goblins didn't go there, and we are only seeing this story (the FMK side of the MoM).

Hmm, you made me wonder about which group does have the highest counter.

Edit: Nevermind, its probably these guys, if not just Psimax taking his time.

► Show Spoiler

[CelineSSauve]

If you had to trade treasures to get out, than I suspect that the word would get out, and people would be less willing to enter.

But with the Alternate Realities a stated face, how could news get out to different realities about what happens when you finish the Maze?

[Rorrik]

What I believe IS his fault, however, is misunderstanding the meaning of the word "reset". Nearly 2 million times, all 217 alts of FMK revert to how they were when they first entered. Is it really so difficult to understand that the treasure room also resets to that exact moment and that I was saying exactly that? I beg of you to understand that I was trying to politely explain to him him what he was putting me through with his misunderstanding in what I read as be a hostel tone.

What he was asking is if you have to leave something AND everything is reset when you leave, why is there not a massive pile of stuff. Your theory seems to contradict itself. On the one hand, you task the leaving of objects as the way to maintain the maze's supply, but then allow people to take more then they leave, diminishing the supply. But on the other hand, you claim the maze resets, meaning if an object is left each time there would be an infinite number of objects.

I can see how he was confused, your position is either not clearly stated or self-contradictory.

Personally, I don't believe you have to leave anything behind, the Jade Teapot could have been lost there in any number of ways. Also, if you can leave anything you want you can take and leave anything that is already there, or Minmax's loin clothe.

[Product Placement]

STUPID STUPID MINMAX. How could you do something so stupid. You can't read, you have a 25% chance of choosing the right key. How could you just jump down there.

25%? Isn't it 33%? The poem goes "Avoid the key that bites and the key that thinks, the key you want is the key that winks.

...that makes me think... What happens during the statistical 66% of cases where the team, that reaches the keys first, picks a wrong key and the mouth closes? Does the dungeon declare that no one won this round and reset everyone? If that were to happen, there's a risk that the entire dungeon gets stuck in an infinite loop, since we'd start with a new game, with 100% same parties, who'd do every single decision the same way again and the same team reaches the keys again and make the same mistake.

Hmm, you made me wonder about which group does have the highest counter.

Edit: Nevermind, its probably these guys, if not just Psimax taking his time.

► Show Spoiler

Psimax has run the maze at minimum 817 times now. That's 817 times, where he has full recollection of every run, because he destroyed the timer in his room (which apparently causes the group designated to said room to reset their memories as the maze resets). Now, whether or not he entered the Maze of many, with this in mind, or destroyed the counter in frustration, after previously failed run is not mentioned. I'm however inclined to believe that he destroyed the counter pretty early, since someone that powerful is likely to clear out that dungeon pretty quickly. I don't even think that Not-Walter could have taken him.

If there's a group that's been around longer than FMK, my bet would be the Barbarian team, that they met in the first challenge room. They seem to be having enough of a trouble getting through the first challenge and if they're being consistently paired up with FMK, every time, it stands to reason that every single variation of their run plays out the exact same way.

P.S.
Regarding trading treasure theory. I can nip it in the bud with one note. If it were so that every time the winning team reaches the treasure room and they have to trade one of their item to replace an item that they take, then they would always leave behind a less powerful item that the one that they took as long as they'd approach it logically. With time, every single item in the treasure room would be replaced with less powerful items, which in turn would be replaced with even less powerful items. After over 2 million runthroughs, How crappy would you imagine that the items were today?

[SccrD25]

*facepalm* Completely forgot the 817. And yeah, the Barbs didn't do to well. From what Psimax said about the tower room (not to mention his whole knowing-everything-everyone-does-deal) we can assume that the room set up stays the same in every reset. So they probably wont get past the first room unless something changes on the other side of the wall (FMK's side). That being said theres probably a lot of groups that are completely unable to pass their first (or later) puzzles. Does that mean they are trapped there forever? What happens when your counter reaches 9,999,999?


Not-Walter would have been fine. He's a demon against a mere mortal.

We. Always.Win.
(Well accept that first time...)

[RocketScientist]

I beg of you to understand that I was trying to politely explain to him him what he was putting me through with his misunderstanding in what I read as be a hostel tone.

He wasn't putting you through anything. He just asked a question and you got upset. It happens to all of us. I'm just asking you to play nice. I'm not making a black mark on your permanent record or anything.

[Mytical]

I am of the belief that as each group enters the maze, an item they seek is created there. Probably the rumors of what can be found exist in each universe, so they come in expecting something, and the maze supplies that item. Once a group claims the victory, whatever they can carry goes with them, not having to be traded for. Now as to how the teapot got there in the first place. As I said previously the maze knows what you are seeking, and creates it. Which means that originally the teapot would have not been in there, but the group was expecting it to be so it was created. Now, when they leave..there can only exist one teapot..I believe the second they leave the maze with the teapot, the original out in the world vanishes. IF it existed at all outside of legend. We can assume was buried someplace that nobody had looked for quite awhile, if it existed at all, so nobody will miss the original.

[Product Placement]

What happens when your counter reaches 9,999,999?

It adds another digit? That's my guess, at least. It's magical, after all and I doubt it starts counting from 0,000,001.

The maze is an interesting concept. After all, your memory of all your previous runs gets wiped, every time it restarts, so you're doomed to repeat your same mistakes, every time. The only changing factor is that the winning team gets replaced by another (similar-ish) adventuring group, which would change how others, who end up interacting with them or had to interact with the group that's now gone, would navigate through the maze. This is why I can be so sure that the Barbarian team must have been around for quite a while; since neither they nor FMK don't get a chance to interact with anyone else, prior to that room. Every variation is likely to be exactly the same, resulting in their death in the confusion/spike room. They won't get a chance to overcome that room until FMK finally clear the maze and get replaced by a team that'll change the way the Barbarian team will behave in that room.

Just my observation on things, anyways.

[gamecreator]

If that were to happen, there's a risk that the entire dungeon gets stuck in an infinite loop, since we'd start with a new game, with 100% same parties, who'd do every single decision the same way again and the same team reaches the keys again and make the same mistake.

As the maze operates outside of time, it's possible to go through infinite amount of iterations in finite amount of time. So that would not be a problem.

The only changing factor is that the winning team gets replaced by another (similar-ish) adventuring group

Counter can also be a changing factor.

[WastesTime]

Counter can also be a changing factor.

Counter is definitely a changing factor. Look at Kin's behavior and actions now. She is stressed because of the fact that she knows how many times they have failed the dungeon. While looking at the counter each group can get more frustrated or more cautious or more desperate thus changing their actions and making each run different from the very first room.

[willpell]

If you had to trade treasures to get out, than I suspect that the word would get out, and people would be less willing to enter.

Logically I would assume that word can't get out, because each reality has only one FMK who visits the Maze only once. That said, I can't fathom how Kin knows anything about the Maze if that's true. There probably isn't any way to answer this riddle until Thunt makes some big reveal.

...that makes me think... What happens during the statistical 66% of cases where the team, that reaches the keys first, picks a wrong key and the mouth closes?

Probably the tower room seals all its exits and fills with lava or something to kill everyone. Or the mouth reopens after a while, perhaps the keys magicall returning to their starting points.

Does the dungeon declare that no one won this round and reset everyone? If that were to happen, there's a risk that the entire dungeon gets stuck in an infinite loop, since we'd start with a new game, with 100% same parties, who'd do every single decision the same way again and the same team reaches the keys again and make the same mistake.

Chaos theory and quantum physics indicate that nothing can be that deterministic; tiny fluctuations at the subatomic level will cause random divergences which multiply over time via the domino effect, so it's more likely that every sequence plays out slightly differently than that any two are exactly the same. Though of course many of the differences would be insignificant and nearly undetectible. Except to Psimax of course.

I'm however inclined to believe that he destroyed the counter pretty early, since someone that powerful is likely to clear out that dungeon pretty quickly. I don't even think that Not-Walter could have taken him.

How powerful do we know him to be anyway? He's certainly an impressively potent psion, but from what I understand his dangerousness is less about raw power than about nigh-omniscient knowledge of the Maze.

[Liesmith]

Counter can also be a changing factor.

Counter is definitely a changing factor. Look at Kin's behavior and actions now. She is stressed because of the fact that she knows how many times they have failed the dungeon. While looking at the counter each group can get more frustrated or more cautious or more desperate thus changing their actions and making each run different from the very first room.

It is a changing factor to a degree, but keep in mind that you aren't likely to be much more stressed out at your 2 billionth attempt than you were at your 1 billionth attempt...and it's a bit of a "coarse adjustment" because most people wouldn't care about the least significant digits once the number gets to be over a certain size.

I think Kin's stress is due to the potentially one-time-only opportunity they currently have, and the fact that failure could be being trapped in the Maze and having to face the might of Psymax's fully-functional continuity destroyer. Their previous runs weren't "life or death", even if they died, because they knew they would succeed eventually, and it would only ever seem like one trip to them. Now, that safety net is on fire and full of hornets.


EDIT:

In regards to the possibility of a "no win" loop: even if the Maze managed to become populated by a combination of groups locked in perpetual stalemate (which, if there are infinite universes, would be an inevitability), it wouldn't matter. There's no indication that the Maze "locks" while one group is in it; if it gets stuck in a loop, the next group could just enter and be placed in a different instance of the maze which is populated by their own alternates.

Alternatively, since each group exits the Maze immediately after entering it, regardless of how much time they spent there, the Maze could have a safety mechanism that boots everyone out if there's no winner after googolplex^googolplex* attempts...and still, no time would have passed on the outside. From the failing groups' points of view, they would have entered the maze and immediately exited. If they turn around and re-enter immediately, they'll get paired up with a different batch of doubles.

Even if each double that was booted out decided to re-enter the maze at the exact same time, the loop would still likely be broken: each group would react to being booted out differently. If the loop recurs, all groups will get booted out again, still with no time having passed. Now, they have memories of walking into the maze, and immediately leaving it twice. Each time this happens, they'll be less likely to try again, until eventually one of them gives up, or re-enters at a slightly different time from the other failing groups (and thus gets paired up with different alternates), or dies of old age or starvation (since a few second will pass every time they leave the Maze, even if they immediately turn around and re-enter it.

Or, the Maze could just boot out looping failures and never let them back in.

*A googol is one with a hundred zeroes after it; a googolplex is one with a googol of zeroes after it)

[WastesTime]

It is a changing factor to a degree, but keep in mind that you aren't likely to be much more stressed out at your 2 billionth attempt than you were at your 1 billionth attempt...and it's a bit of a "coarse adjustment" because most people wouldn't care about the least significant digits once the number gets to be over a certain size.

I think Kin's stress is due to the potentially one-time-only opportunity they currently have, and the fact that failure could be being trapped in the Maze and having to face the might of Psymax's fully-functional continuity destroyer. Their previous runs weren't "life or death", even if they died, because they knew they would succeed eventually, and it would only ever seem like one trip to them. Now, that safety net is on fire and full of hornets.

I was thinking more of a "butterfly effect" but I do agree with your reasoning. It's kinda like with games when you try countless times to beat a certain part of a given game and not get much farther than before and suddenly you are almost there - it certainly makes you sweat.

Here, this is taken to the extreme, as you said.

And the question ones again returns: where in seven hells is Psimax? He has to be aware of the fact that they messed with his equation. I know that Kin said earlier that they are on a track not predicted by the Psion thus he cannot predict or even see their movements, I guess, but on the other hand he knows the whole Maze and was able to easily teleport to our FMK when he saw that something was wrong from his room with the strange, orbiting thingy.

[Liesmith]

And the question ones again returns: where in seven hells is Psimax? He has to be aware of the fact that they messed with his equation. I know that Kin said earlier that they are on a track not predicted by the Psion thus he cannot predict or even see their movements, I guess, but on the other hand he knows the whole Maze and was able to easily teleport to our FMK when he saw that something was wrong from his room with the strange, orbiting thingy.

I like to imagine that Psimax is currently leaving vaguely angst-ridden updates on his MySpace page (because this is set in medieval times) about how no one understands him. While listening to Linkin' Park.

[WastesTime]

I like to imagine that Psimax is currently leaving vaguely angst-ridden updates on his MySpace page (because this is set in medieval times) about how no one understands him. While listening to Linkin' Park.

That, sir, made my day!

[gamecreator]

Logically I would assume that word can't get out, because each reality has only one FMK who visits the Maze only once. That said, I can't fathom how Kin knows anything about the Maze if that's true. There probably isn't any way to answer this riddle until Thunt makes some big reveal.

There is no indication that no one ever passed the maze before.

Chaos theory and quantum physics indicate that nothing can be that deterministic

Chaos theory indicates that we are not able to repeat anything exactly as it happened. And quantum physics can't indicate anything, as it is only a method to operate with random values. Nothing indicates that processes on quantum level are truly random. They can easily be seemingly random to us.