5 March 2013: What Next?!

[Your.Master]

And quantum physics can't indicate anything, as it is only a method to operate with random values. Nothing indicates that processes on quantum level are truly random. They can easily be seemingly random to us.

That's not true. We have things like Bell's Theorem that indicates true randomness. Bell's theorem states: "No physical theory of local hidden variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics." Having hidden variables is also known as <i>counterfactual definiteness</i> or <i>realism</i> (not being snarky; that's what realism means in physics). Lacking hidden variables is not just determinism but superdeterminism.

Counterfactual definiteness is the ability to say "if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, then it still makes a sound" AND the ability to say "if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, then it still makes no sound". Because an "if" statement is meaningless without counterfactual definiteness. The universe works the way it does not because of cause and effect, really, but because that's the way it works and it could be no other way. You can believe this, it's not entirely discarded by all, but it's definitely an indication that maybe things are truly random. Because I think it's even harder to say that "what-if scenarios have no meaning under any circumstances" than "some events are literally unpredictable even with perfect information".

[boneguard]

Forgath is the one who said that a dwarf will kill him...the Fortuneteller just said he would die in battle with a dwarf. Picky, I know, but this is Thunt we're dealing with. We can pretty safely assume that every word of that prophecy, exactly as written, is a clue.

My theory is that FMK meet up with the GAP just as Kore arrives. Kore spots Kin, and attacks her. If Kore is a hero to dwarves, as I suspect he may be, then Forgath may be honor-bound to assist him. This will put him in direct conflict with Minmax, who will kill him out of love for Kin. This satisfies all the parameters of the prophecy: "in battle with another dwarf" in this context would mean "in battle beside another dwarf".

Or Junior is involved, because that guy is kind of a jerk.

Great mind think alike. I open a thread about 24 hour ago with my theory which is pretty much the same as yours..

I really cant see Forgath being willing to hurt Kin. He already had the change of heart with Thac0 and he was the one against Minmax killing Kin when they met. He became friends with Kin. I mean come on, look at the last panel here http://www.goblinscomic.com/01282011/

They're friends, they've been through a lot together now. I just cant see Forgath turning on a friend and trying to kill them just because Kore is a dwarf hero, honor-bound or not.

Unless Kore IS/WAS a freind of Forgath. But Forgath association to Kin and potentially siding with the Goblins would made Forgath Turn aganist a friend.

[gamecreator]

I don't know english good enough to fully understand this topic.

That's not true. We have things like Bell's Theorem that indicates true randomness. Bell's theorem states: "No physical theory of local hidden variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics." Having hidden variables is also known as <i>counterfactual definiteness</i> or <i>realism</i> (not being snarky; that's what realism means in physics). Lacking hidden variables is not just determinism but superdeterminism.

From what I was able to understand from Wikipedia article, Bell's theorem has no proof, applicable only to certain set of deterministic theories and suppose that randomness exists at some level. Also there was only experimental proofs for certain theories from aforementioned (supposedly infinite) set. So until there is no general proof, it can't be said that Bell's theorem in any way indicates true randomness of quantum processes. Please correct me if I understood something wrong.

Counterfactual definiteness is the ability to say "if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, then it still makes a sound" AND the ability to say "if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, then it still makes no sound". Because an "if" statement is meaningless without counterfactual definiteness. The universe works the way it does not because of cause and effect, really, but because that's the way it works and it could be no other way. You can believe this, it's not entirely discarded by all, but it's definitely an indication that maybe things are truly random. Because I think it's even harder to say that "what-if scenarios have no meaning under any circumstances" than "some events are literally unpredictable even with perfect information".

I can not understand what counterfactual definiteness is. Is it ability to predict outcome of supposed action? What differs it from statictical or theoretical prediction? And I don't see any way it can contradict superdeterminism.

[BuildsLegos]

Thank you Rorrik for explaining the problem with my theory, thank you Rocket Scientist for putting my worries to rest...

I am of the belief that as each group enters the maze, an item they seek is created there. Probably the rumors of what can be found exist in each universe, so they come in expecting something, and the maze supplies that item. Once a group claims the victory, whatever they can carry goes with them, not having to be traded for. Now as to how the teapot got there in the first place. As I said previously the maze knows what you are seeking, and creates it. Which means that originally the teapot would have not been in there, but the group was expecting it to be so it was created. Now, when they leave, there can only exist one teapot. I believe the second they leave the maze with the teapot, the original out in the world vanishes. IF it existed at all outside of legend. We can assume was buried someplace that nobody had looked for quite awhile, if it existed at all, so nobody will miss the original.

...and thank you for providing a better theory.

[Rorrik]

I am of the belief that as each group enters the maze, an item they seek is created there. Probably the rumors of what can be found exist in each universe, so they come in expecting something, and the maze supplies that item. Once a group claims the victory, whatever they can carry goes with them, not having to be traded for. Now as to how the teapot got there in the first place. As I said previously the maze knows what you are seeking, and creates it. Which means that originally the teapot would have not been in there, but the group was expecting it to be so it was created. Now, when they leave..there can only exist one teapot..I believe the second they leave the maze with the teapot, the original out in the world vanishes. IF it existed at all outside of legend. We can assume was buried someplace that nobody had looked for quite awhile, if it existed at all, so nobody will miss the original.

This really is a good theory for the existence of the Jade Teapot in the maze. I wonder if what is in the treasure room depends on the group viewing it, or if you can take items of lore from more imaginative realities than your own.

If a reality ever figured out this was going on, they could purposefully start an incredible rumor about an epically powerful, only usable by alignment X weapon that is the maze and then go get it. Successful retrieval is guaranteed, because you can try as many times as you want. No better deal than that.

@BuildsLegos Thanks for not harboring hard feelings.

[RocketScientist]

thank you Rocket Scientist for putting my worries to rest..

No problem. We're all friends here.

[Product Placement]

Counter can also be a changing factor.

Counter is definitely a changing factor. Look at Kin's behavior and actions now. She is stressed because of the fact that she knows how many times they have failed the dungeon. While looking at the counter each group can get more frustrated or more cautious or more desperate thus changing their actions and making each run different from the very first room.

The effects of the counter is pretty insignificant, in my opinion. Sure, you're probably not worrying about failing your previous runs, after losing 2 times, 4 times, 10 times... after all, you have infinite amount of tries. But you naturally start doubting your ability to finish the maze, once you start clocking over 1000 failures. If you're dealing with a team that has lost enough times that it starts to get desperate/frustrated, once it sees the number on the counter, how is it gonna behave any differently the next time it sees the counter, and the time after that? Granted, losing almost 2 million times, is rather extreme, but do you think that FMK reacted any differently to the prospect that they had just lost 1 million times? Or 100.000?

The biggest changing factor in each run through the dungeon is, in my opinion, replacing one of the 218 groups that navigate through it. Stress levels over the counter or quantum mechanics aren't really gonna contribute that much of a change

But of course, the biggest current monkey wrench in the equation is PsiMax and his oblivion holes.

[gamecreator]

By the way, from where do we know that there is 218 groups at the same time?

[Product Placement]

By the way, from where do we know that there is 218 groups at the same time?

It's mentioned here.

[ChuckNorris]

Crack idea: Kore is an alt-Forgatb

[willpell]

By the way, from where do we know that there is 218 groups at the same time?

The small amount of a math nerd I am wants to know why the heck it would be 218, rather than 216 or 222 or something. Anyone know of some possible significance?

[Byzantine2]

Am I the only one who probably would have set up a simple break of the memory effect, then have each team go win when they hit 217 losses? Seems easier for everyone, since you never know if you will be the team that fails horribly 2 million times, and 217 losses doesn't seem too extreme, or like it would even take very long if we didn't bother fighting eachother. (order of the first 218 teams to be determined by rolling dice. It seems appropriate).

[BuildsLegos]

Where did this extra team come from? Kin specifically said 216 other realities, not counting themselves.

[CelineSSauve]

Where did this extra team come from? Kin specifically said 216 other realities, not counting themselves.

6th panel of the comic quoted above "There are two hundred eighteen 'copies' of our group in here now."

[BanditoWalrus]

After DMing for a group of devious masterminds, all I can think of is how bad of an idea jumping down to the platform is.

Clearly, they should've waited where they were, let the army of MFK parties fight each other, and let someone win the correct key and ascend to the top.

Then, they ambush the winning MFK party, who, in theory, should be heavily damaged from that massive battle down there, and not expecting to find another MFK party magically further than they are.



Simply put, why fight against a large group of alternate-selves to get a key, when you could fight just one injured/spent group??

[BuildsLegos]

Where did this extra team come from? Kin specifically said 216 other realities, not counting themselves.

6th panel of the comic quoted above "There are two hundred eighteen 'copies' of our group in here now."

Well then, either there's a typo later on or I misread or misremembered.

[Belexar]

After DMing for a group of devious masterminds, all I can think of is how bad of an idea jumping down to the platform is.

Clearly, they should've waited where they were, let the army of MFK parties fight each other, and let someone win the correct key and ascend to the top.

Then, they ambush the winning MFK party, who, in theory, should be heavily damaged from that massive battle down there, and not expecting to find another MFK party magically further than they are.



Simply put, why fight against a large group of alternate-selves to get a key, when you could fight just one injured/spent group??

Because you're MinMax.

[Byzantine2]

After DMing for a group of devious masterminds, all I can think of is how bad of an idea jumping down to the platform is.

Clearly, they should've waited where they were, let the army of MFK parties fight each other, and let someone win the correct key and ascend to the top.

Then, they ambush the winning MFK party, who, in theory, should be heavily damaged from that massive battle down there, and not expecting to find another MFK party magically further than they are.



Simply put, why fight against a large group of alternate-selves to get a key, when you could fight just one injured/spent group??

I was thinking the same thing, but it occurred to me that it is odd the loot room is so far from the tower room if whoever gets the key is guaranteed to win under normal circumstances. I think the tower will let every remaining group up, or something else that will also throw things off, otherwise there is quite a lot of wasted space for after the victor has been decided. Unless the purpose is just to mess with the group doing the crawl, at which point I suppose it is possible.


I have an unrelated question: Why do so many people think they are going to take losses in the Maze of Many? From my understanding of the place if they win, they win, and all of them are thrown back into their reality. Basically it is a very deadly dungeon drawl, but has no real risk.

[Your.Master]

I don't know english good enough to fully understand this topic.
From what I was able to understand from Wikipedia article, Bell's theorem has no proof, applicable only to certain set of deterministic theories and suppose that randomness exists at some level. Also there was only experimental proofs for certain theories from aforementioned (supposedly infinite) set. So until there is no general proof, it can't be said that Bell's theorem in any way indicates true randomness of quantum processes. Please correct me if I understood something wrong.

It's actually kind of the opposite of what you said. Bell's Theorem has been proven for all possible theories. The loophole is getting rid of counterfactual definiteness.

I can not understand what counterfactual definiteness is. Is it ability to predict outcome of supposed action? What differs it from statictical or theoretical prediction? And I don't see any way it can contradict superdeterminism.

The definition of Superdeterminism is determinism without counterfactual definiteness. Counterfactual definiteness is a tricky concept, but it kind of means that predictions are meaningless, and what-if scenarios are meaningless. Things happen the way they happen only because they happen that way, and any pattern you notice is a coincidence. Every experimental result isn't accurate because of the sequence of events that lead up to the result, it's because there was a conspiracy of every particle in the universe for all time to make that experiment work (for all experiments).

Regular determinism says the sun will rise tomorrow -- same as quantum nondeterminism, because it gets really close to determinism at these scales. Superdeterminism says don't be surprised if the sun stops on the other side of the planet and starts shooting cheeseburgers at you, because there's no good reason to expect the sunrise behaviour over the eternal night of cheeseburgers.

[Changes_everything]

After DMing for a group of devious masterminds, all I can think of is how bad of an idea jumping down to the platform is.

Clearly, they should've waited where they were, let the army of MFK parties fight each other, and let someone win the correct key and ascend to the top.

Then, they ambush the winning MFK party, who, in theory, should be heavily damaged from that massive battle down there, and not expecting to find another MFK party magically further than they are.



Simply put, why fight against a large group of alternate-selves to get a key, when you could fight just one injured/spent group??

Because you're MinMax.

And because it might just happen that the one below who gets to the keys first chooses wrongly, denying everybody, including you, access to the correct one.

[Glemp]

I assumed that whoever set up the Maze (the sword is just the entrance) went round stealing treasures from around the world to attract adventurers. Why? . Some thing I have been wondering is why all of the Alt-parties are variations of FMK, rather than completely new characters. Apparently, the untold billions of alternate realities are less imaginative than we thought. Eh, Willing Suspension...

[CelineSSauve]

Some thing I have been wondering is why all of the Alt-parties are variations of FMK, rather than completely new characters. Apparently, the untold billions of alternate realities are less imaginative than we thought. Eh, Willing Suspension...

I figured there was just a variation of the Maze for each group. So if the GAP were to enter the Maze, you would see variations of it. Perhaps even one where MM joined Names to seek out the greater evil, or something.

Alternate Universes can be different, yes, but they are also based on the "one single choice can make all the difference" which is what seems to be the theme of the Maze.

[Glemp]

Alternate Universes can be different, yes, but they are also based on the "one single choice can make all the difference" which is what seems to be the theme of the Maze.

While I accept the rest of your post as a pretty good explanation, many of the alt-verses operate under different DnD rules, such as Undead Forgath's large number of magic rings. Clearly, that universe didn't diverge because of a single decision, and neither did the increased challenge rating goblins one.

[CelineSSauve]

Alternate Universes can be different, yes, but they are also based on the "one single choice can make all the difference" which is what seems to be the theme of the Maze.

While I accept the rest of your post as a pretty good explanation, many of the alt-verses operate under different DnD rules, such as Undead Forgath's large number of magic rings. Clearly, that universe didn't diverge because of a single decision, and neither did the increased challenge rating goblins one.

I don't know about the rings example you brought up, but for the other, I actually had that in mind as one of my examples.

I'd say the main change there was "What if Goblins weren't just XP fodder, but the biggest threat around?"

[BanditoWalrus]

After DMing for a group of devious masterminds, all I can think of is how bad of an idea jumping down to the platform is.

Clearly, they should've waited where they were, let the army of MFK parties fight each other, and let someone win the correct key and ascend to the top.

Then, they ambush the winning MFK party, who, in theory, should be heavily damaged from that massive battle down there, and not expecting to find another MFK party magically further than they are.



Simply put, why fight against a large group of alternate-selves to get a key, when you could fight just one injured/spent group??

Because you're MinMax.

And because it might just happen that the one below who gets to the keys first chooses wrongly, denying everybody, including you, access to the correct one.

Ahh. But the Maze of Many is always going to have one Victor, so if the text is telling the truth, there must logically be an alternate way to get the correct key, even if you screw up the first time. In the worst case scenario, even if the mouth closes, Minmax could use Oblivious to cut through the gate, opening it for the alts fighting over the key.

And of course, they could always test the Sword That Cuts Through Anything against The Glass That Cannot Be Broken. Failing the Glass they could also try the sword on the door. Or the walls. Or the lock. They have an irresistible force paradox, and should've found out which force, the sword or the room, is more irresistible.