Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

[Vayday]

Hello there. I've been a long time fan of Goblins and I created an account for this occasion because there are things I didnt see anywhere and I think it needs to be adress (I apologise in advance, english isnt my first language so I hope it's not too sketchy)

I've been a fan of Goblins for a long time, and I've talked about it to all my friends and Tabletop pals, but I've never got to actually show my support to the author (Which is awesome) and it's work (Which is even awesomer) hence when the cardgame kickstarter came around I've gave it my all and pledged at the highest amount I could, Not only did I payed 200 dollars for the game, I also had to include about 50 dollars for shipping overseas which is serious devotion (in my book anyway). I had a feeling that the kickstarter might crumble when I got the email from Richard James back in September but I've waited faithfully and I'm glad to finally have some kind of answer.

While I congratulate Thunt for his dedication and wanting to right the wrong I am fairly concerned about numerous issues that might show up during developement, some of them are benign, some other more alarming :
-I know Thunt is actually recovering from anxiety. I dont blame him, I am myself very anxious but I dont want him to become stressed and worked up if upholding his word gets in the way of his health and his productivty.
-What I dont know is if he's going to be continuing both his comic and his work on the cardgame at the same time. I dont mind him stopping one or another but I dont think it's a good idea to keep both running, especially concerning his health.
-While I respect Thunt as a DM and as a comic artist, he is no game designer. Which is fine too, I dont mind, but if the game is broken there's little to no use to publish it. Making sure there's nothing game breaking is going to take a lot of time. I'm sure everyone involved will be glad to help with the beta testing but still.
-http://www.drivethrucards.com/pub_podcard_cost.php those are the costs for the RPG Drivethrut card printing. Now maybe I didnt understood quite clearly what Thunt had to say on his blog post but I do believe it will cost a huge amount of money not only to print those out, but also to send them to the backer (As I said, I had to pay 50 extra dollars for shipping).
-Making a Cardgame from A to Z and shipping/mailing a product is something I think I can fairly assume Thunt never did (Could be wrong though) there might be hidden dangers ahead we're not even aware of, or technical dificulties we have yet to discover wich could turn the whole project into a living nightmare. Maybe we should ask for some advice from professionals. Because there's probably more to it than just that (There always is). What I mean is that companies, entire companies just like Evertide Games, manage to destroy themselves in the process. We might want to thread carefully.

What I mean to say is : before we get ahead of ourselves, I'd just like to be sure that what we're going to do is even remotely possible. Because I dont want Thunt to stress over something he couldnt accomplish, I dont want him to put himself through a nightmare, and I dont want my fellow Goblins readers and backers to be disapointed again.

Finally, after concerning myself for the well being of this community and the author I would just like to adress something that concerns myself.

I am aware that Thunt does not believe Richard James is a bad person and thus would like to avoid getting the law involved. However I would just like to remind you that people living in america and canada are free to press charges against the man, I for myself lives oversea and I cant. My voice cant be heard no matter how much I would like Richard James to answer for what he did. I know I'm not the only foreigner who backed the project, so others might be in the same predicament, leaving them with nothing to do but to watch from there, powerless. And unless someone is taking action, we wont be able to.

I would also like to highlight that while Kickstarter is indeed, not accountable for what the creators does with their money, their term of use stipulates that the creator must tell his backers what happened with it (As stated in article 4 of the terms of use)

► Show Spoiler

"If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, theyÔÇÖve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe thatÔÇÖs communicated to backers;
theyÔÇÖre able to demonstrate that theyÔÇÖve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
theyÔÇÖve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If theyÔÇÖre unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.

Hence he might still be bounded by the rules of the website to provide us with at least some explaining.

Thank you for reading this lenghty post, I hope my english wasnt too painfull and long live Goblins !

[Aegis J Hyena]

I probably wouldn't do it without THunt's ok, but it also seems like the guy isn't responding to facebook anyways.

I agree with what WearsHats says, it'd be a pile on. Good intentions, bad results.

[knows-little]

that fracking sucks for what he did to you thunt i am sorry to hear about the new problems and hope you can get back some og the money they screwed you and the donators{ i was going to but had to hold off}, but damn that totally sucks for them to do that you

[Sessine]

[ Some very good points. ] (And your English is fine!)

I do have a few thoughts in response.

By all reports Thunt is an outstanding, very experienced, DM with a great sense of what makes for a fun gaming experience, and he's starting with a framework that was professionally designed. So the end product will almost certainly be playable. Will it have hidden exploits that a pro would have fixed? Oh yeah, probably. Will it become a huge bestseller of a game to vast hordes of cardgame addicts who never heard of Goblins the webcomic? Nope, no chance. It'll be a brilliant-amateur effort, and perfectionists will undoubtedly find flaws. But that's okay. Will it be fun to play? I'm pretty sure it will. People who want to have fun will make it work. If it needs house rules, so be it. If it sees the light of day, some people will love it immensely. So in that sense, it will have been worth doing.

But, you're right. There are risks. What if Thunt's current happy creative enthusiasm wanes in the face of this huge extra workload? We can't tell him what to do. Right now my guess is that rolling up his sleeves and actually doing something about the debacle is helping him, not hurting. More power to him! I just hope he realizes that none of us who backed the project want it to turn into a millstone around his neck.

As for legal action... I think any good lawyer would tell you that when you're considering launching a civil lawsuit, there are other factors to consider besides whether you have a case and might win. The first question is: Is there any money to be recovered? Evertide Games is listed in a number of online directories as 'Evertide Games Inc.' which means it's incorporated -- a separate entity from its owners. So a lawsuit can't go after Richard James's mother's house; the only funds available to satisfy a judgement and pay the lawyers are whatever's left of the corporate assets. From the information available so far, my guess is that amount would be pretty close to zero. Whatever you might realize from selling off the office equipment wouldn't begin to pay the legal costs.

[Krulle]

Okay, there's a second blog post on G:AR by THunt:
http://www.goblinscomic.org/lowtide-gar-second-update/

It seems like he is ENJOYing creating the game. That's therapeutic and good!

Otherwise, a lot of comments have been made in the G:AR thread in Community: "GAR Updates?".


And thanks to Vayday.
It'll be interesting to see how kickstarter reacts to the non-compliance of "Article 4" of their "terms of use".
And at least the shipping costs need to be refunded, as they were never part of the money to create the game. This may lead to legal action, even if he announced that he will not ship internationally, he took the money for that.

[Bunbury]

Concerning Evertide:

The company seems the have been effectively bancrupt since early July. They were responsible for the Kingdom of Loathing board game as well as Goblins. As of July, they lacked the funds to ship the completed games to international backers. While they were hoping for additional cashflow from actual game sales, this seems unlikely, since most people interested in the game had already paid, after all. Additionally, not all packages contained all rewards etc. Link: http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/vb/ ... p?t=203439

Given that the Goblins Kickstarted was already done by then, they probably spent ALL the money they had.

Thunt wasn't the only one to trust Evertide with his brand, and the KoL folks got lucky their game was done first. The company VERY badly miscalculated how much it would cost to make and ship games. There is probably no money left to get back, and equally probably, nobody "took" the money and is living off it. The only point in suing anybody would be to ruin their life, and seeing that they really tried to make a product, there seems to be very little emotional satisfaction in that.

As a side note, I really wish Kickstarter makers would communicate their problems as well as their successes. A lot more would be forgiven for just being open about it than for trying to hide it.

[Krulle]

I'm also pretty sure the money is spent creating games...
There was a game ready, it just had a large exploitable gap in the rules.... :(

It would also be nice of kickstarter to show how many projects succeeded in delivering, and how many failed.
Not just "funded" and "not funded".

[DrinksBeer]

Concerning Evertide:

The company seems the have been effectively bancrupt since early July. They were responsible for the Kingdom of Loathing board game as well as Goblins. As of July, they lacked the funds to ship the completed games to international backers. While they were hoping for additional cashflow from actual game sales, this seems unlikely, since most people interested in the game had already paid, after all. Additionally, not all packages contained all rewards etc. Link: http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/vb/ ... p?t=203439

Given that the Goblins Kickstarted was already done by then, they probably spent ALL the money they had.

Not only that, but James was also working on a computer game based on the Romantically Apocalyptic webcomic. I had thought this was a late 2013 development but found a reference to it as far back as fall 2012. That project had gotten as far as interface development...



...and a draft script for a kickstarter video:

http://adventuresincaptania.blogspot.co ... draft.html

So yeah, I doubt there's any money left to recover.

[ForgetsOldName]

Evertide Games was a corporation in California, but they didn't keep their legal status up. This means that Richard James could be held responsible for the debts of the corporation. The words "legal mess" come to mind here. We've passed the limits of my knowledge.

[Krulle]

Interesting to speculate about, but I think no one's really interested in pursueing anything....

[OddBird]

I'm just really happy to see the tone in Thunt's latest update. He seems to really enjoy the creative process behind this and I, for one, am excited to see him having fun with it. I'm certainly willing to do my part in helping with any costs in his personal endeavor to get the game together and produced.

[WearsHats]

The timing worked out well. His computer just died, and the replacement hasn't arrived yet. So he can't work on the comic, but he can be productive with the game. Once the computer is set up, he'll have to juggle the two, but luckily he's accepted in both cases that he's not working on a deadline. He'll just do the best he can.

[Triffnix]

I must admit that I am still baffled by the sympathetic responses to this turn of events. When I look at the facts, I cannot muster much sympathy for Mr. James.

The project cost was estimated at $ 50,000, and the final funding was almost four times as much. Even if you deduct the production costs, there still remains enough headroom to go over budget with R&D. However, it would seem that Evertide used up the entire budget for R&D. And it still wasn't enough - in July, Richard James sent out an email alluding to "the vicissitudes of R&D work" and announcing still more delays. This suggests gross negligence when it comes to project management.

The key to successful project management is to deliver - on time, and on budget - a product that is "good enough". For a card game, this simply means taking the best version of the design that you have when you run out of budget, and shipping it. It isn't rocket science. Who knows, the customers might actually be satisfied with the product.

While I have a low opinion of Mr. James, I do feel for Thunt. His reasonably good name has been sullied by his association with this person of questionable character. And I know that the money I had earmarked for Thunt went to Evertide instead - yet another unfortunate outcome for Thunt.

[Krulle]

I fully understand you.
If 50k should have been sufficient to create the game, and ship, then the amount collected definitely should have been.

Right now I feel luck that I did not participate, for various reasons.
I would have been prepared to buy the finished game, for full price, if my situation would have changed to a situation where I could use the game.
Maybe I can in the future....

(Honestly, when Mr. James announced that he had a working game, and then threw all overboard, I thought "What?".
I would have kept the last fully working version prepared to ship, with an apology that the game mechanic is flawed, but they're running out of money, so they have to ship before all is gone.
I know gamers, they find and make a set of rules that will work, and today there are plenty of ways for the gamers to be in contact and get the word of working rules out to the rest.)

[WearsHats]

Others have speculated that he was using the Kickstarter funds to cover cost overruns from his other projects in the hopes that income from those games would let him keep his head above water. We don't know, but when I heard from him several months ago, he said he was putting everything into the company, forgoing a salary for himself, and working long hours. Packing and shipping rewards from his previous Kickstarter had taken a lot more than he'd anticipated (which is a consistent message I've heard from many people who have run successful campaigns), but he was doing everything he could.

Not admitting it and at least telling Thunt is not cool. But we don't know why, or what he's been up to. He could, for example, have had a breakdown caused by working too hard while watching his dreams and finances collapse. I think that could be understandable.

Anyway, Thunt has asked us not to trash or badmouth him. Thunt is cool like that. Sometimes, perhaps, a little too much. But that's the way he wants it. And, frankly, the world could do with more kindness and forgiveness. So I'm going to respect that.

[Krulle]

It all sounds like burn out to me too.
Things happen, life happens, and it's not cool that good things sometimes end like this.
Let's hope Thunt is able to fulfil his promise to a degree that he's comfortable with it.

[DrinksBeer]

I have zero sympathy for Richard, but any trashing of him that I might be inclined to do now would be redundant. He has already trashed his own reputation far more throughly than I could ever have done.

[CooksACarrot]

Unfortunately, what we are dealing with is a start-up business funded through kickstarter campaigns. Neither has a terribly great track record of longevity. It sucks that people have lost money and that there was no communication, but it seems like THunt has a plan to give people some kind of compensation.

[Triffnix]

Unfortunately, what we are dealing with is a start-up business funded through kickstarter campaigns. Neither has a terribly great track record of longevity.

Why are so many people calling Evertide Games a start-up? The company was founded in 2006. And Richard James claims to have had a few years of experience designing games before he started his company. The reason for this fiasco can be found somewhere else, I think.

In August, Mr. James sent an email to some of the Kickstarter backers. If you like Buzzword Bingo, you will enjoy this gem from the email:
"Despite the release of our first Kickstarter project earlier this year, the companyÔÇÖs expenses in 2014 have significantly exceeded our revenue and the cost of our efforts at publicity and promotion throughout 2013 far outweighed the tangible benefits from doing so. On top of that, the time required to oversee operations over the past year has compromised my ability to finalize product design and led to a lot of product release and production delays, most notably for our project for Goblins. So, in order to make sure that the company becomes cashflow positive, avoids running out of cash and fulfills all our obligations, we have had to resort to some drastic measures."

Translation: The guys from Evertide used a lot of time and money to visit cons and talk to game journalists. Unsurprisingly, everybody who liked the game was already a Kickstarter backer, and there were no additional sales. There is almost no money left in the company.

Something strikes me as odd: Richard James puts an emphasis on cash flow and revenue, instead of earnings and equity. I suspect that the influx of Kickstarter money gave him the false impression that his company had suddenly become very profitable. This is when he started pouring money into PR and got sidetracked by "operations". It is quite possible that his liabilities already exceed his assets.

[Sessine]

Packing and shipping rewards from his previous Kickstarter had taken a lot more than he'd anticipated (which is a consistent message I've heard from many people who have run successful campaigns), but he was doing everything he could.

Two things.

First, as the Chinese say: Ten pots, nine lids! If done with intent to defraud it's called a Ponzi scheme, but even with the best will in the world, many many small businesses with multiple projects on the go find themselves tapping into funds earmarked for a newer project to cover cost overruns for an older one. It's terrible business practice, but when you're a novice at running a business it's a fatally easy mistake to make. The money's right there! You HAVE to use it (you think) to survive. If you don't... the older project will fail, everyone will know, and your business will be dead! And who knows, maybe the horse will learn how to sing... Entrepreneurial optimism combines with desperation. Quite often, before anyone knows it, the old project is still only partly done and the new money is gone, too.

And about those cost overruns... there's a lesson therein for Thunt. Please calculate the costs beforehand, and let the shipping costs matter in what you decide to do. If some cool little extra is going to push the package into the next size or weight bracket for shipping, LEAVE IT OUT. Or if you absolutely have to include that thing, leave out some OTHER component to make room for it. Aim for elegant sufficiency. That was Evertide's worst mistake, the one they kept on making... and it killed their company. Learn from it. Don't repeat it! A good playable game does not have to outweigh a small rhinoceros.

Oh, and... a third thing. If you're bound and determined to ship us backers something, please let us know beforehand where you'll be shipping from. If it's a bulk order sent out from your home, I want to change my shipping address to me, in Canada, rather than the American friend I was going to give the game to.

[Vayday]

I think no one's really interested in pursueing anything....

*Raise hand* I'm sorry but I beg to differ. However like I explained in my post, no matter how much I'd like to, I can't. I will be looking into the matter further on Monday but I have little hope of anything conclusive on the action I can take from within my oversea country.

More than a selfish desire to get my money back, I dont think anyone has yet realised that we have little to no guarantee on the creation of the cardgame except our trust in Thunt, and call me "Ye of little faith", but even if Gary Gigax said he was going to salvage Dungeon and Dragon using his own funds, I would still be doubtfull. While I want to believe, I'd rather have some concrete evidence that the project is going to go well and without problem. Because if anything happened (And the risks are big, there are more reasons why the project should fail than reason why it should succeed by now) we will be back to square one, and if Richard James had some money to refund he would have spended more of it by the time we realise we were in over our head.

But it's not even a matter or if Thunt can or cannot make the game.tWhile his intention are indeed chivalrous, there is a man here that fled with our money, and it's going to be a fact wether we can play at this cardgame or not. And this man needs to know that our trust (And Thunt's) are not his to abuse. Even if Thunt doesnt want to get the law involved we have a right, as people, to see our wrongs get righted. And I believe by finding excuses on why we shouldnt persue Mr James, we are only slowing down the arm of the law. The fact that Mr James fled with our money is not inevitable, it's not something we are helpless to fight against and our money has not disapeared until we have concrete evidence it has. While I salute the calm and open mind of the goblin community I might advise that there is a time to ponder and a time to fight.

[WearsHats]

To reiterate:

1. Kickstarter makes no guarantees that the project, even if funded, will succeed.
2. Evertide did do a lot of work on the game, including a playable demo. They didn't just take the money and run.
3. Thunt has asked us not to go after Richard ourselves.
4. Thunt said he's looking into legal options. He's the one who had the contract with Evertide.
5. There have long been indications that Evertide was in financial trouble. You can't get money from them that they don't have.

[Sessine]

In Canada and the USA, Veyday, there's an immense difference between a civil lawsuit and a criminal prosecution. Even if you think there has been criminal wrongdoing, an ordinary citizen doesn't get to decide whether there will be a criminal prosecution. A prosecutor for the state needs to be convinced that the criminal code has been violated and that there is sufficient evidence that a prosecution stands a reasonable chance of being successful.

A civil suit, on the other hand, can't send anyone to jail. The most it can do is have the court order the other party to pay some money. The process is lengthy and expensive. Richard James would have to defend himself, so even if he has a bit of money now, that would get eaten up and he'd probably be forced deep into debt. Unless there are assets to seize to satisfy the judgement, the court order is only a piece of paper. Yes, if it's true that Evertide let its corporate status lapse, you might be able to force Richard James to declare personal bankruptcy. You still wouldn't get your money back. Plus, you'd then owe your own lawyers and the court a substantial sum, which you would have to pay even if you couldn't get so much as a dollar out of James.

Bottom line, whether you won or lost: you 'd probably be able to ruin Richard James' life, but you'd also be quite a bit worse off, yourself.

I say 'you' ... but it wouldn't be you, would it? You're asking other people to do this for you. I'm explaining why the backers who are in Canada and the US are unlikely to want to.

(Now, Thunt might have a valid cause of action. That will be up to him. Maybe he can at least get Richard James to hand over that roomful of Goblins merchandise and convention banners, which will be of no use to anyone but him.)


As for whether Thunt will be able to send out a G:AR game someday? That's a separate issue. We paid money to Evertide. They didn't deliver, and the company is defunct. That money's not recoverable. We pretty much have to write it off as a lesson learned.

Thunt didn't get our money. He is not legally obliged to send us anything at all. If -- because he feels bad that his fans lost money, and because he is a mensch -- he does make a game and send it out to us at his own expense, that's him giving us a gift.

[CooksACarrot]

I think, given the information we have, it is far more likely that he fled without the money than with it. A business going under and investors losing money is not a crime.

[DrinksBeer]

In case anyone hadn't noticed, Thunt added an update to the second update cautioning people against ordering G:AR on Evertide's web site. They may not have the game but apparently they will still take your money!

I think, given the information we have, it is far more likely that he fled without the money than with it. A business going under and investors losing money is not a crime.

The operative phrase being "given the information we have." Most of us are assuming that what Richard and Graydon have claimed bears some passing resemblance to the truth. But it's possible (and some might argue likely) that they are full of what comes out of the rear end of my avatar. Richard told Hats in July that he was drawing an (allegedly small) salary out of the funds, so there was money left as recently as midsummer. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was still a chunk of change left.