Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Hertzyscowicz » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:35 pm

Vayday wrote: I would also like to highlight that while Kickstarter is indeed, not accountable for what the creators does with their money, their term of use stipulates that the creator must tell his backers what happened with it (As stated in article 4 of the terms of use)
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Hence he might still be bounded by the rules of the website to provide us with at least some explaining.
I would like to add to this that there is a "Report this project to Kickstarter" button in the bottom of the kickstarter page. I'd recommend any backer that want to turn the screws on Evertide go click that button.

EDIT: Also, this citation is from the new terms of use, the old one simply said
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I'd add that all of those backer rewards are at least a year late now.

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Sessine » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:36 pm

The 'Report a Project' button at the bottom of the project page seems to be intended for projects that are still in progress, ones where Kickstarter still wields the big club of potentially refusing to deliver the pledged funds if their rules are being violated.

It doesn't even offer an option to tell KS, "This funded project has totally failed to deliver anything to its backers."

If we click it anyway, that's not going to do anything to Evertide except put them on the list of companies that aren't allowed to run any more KS projects. I suspect whatever Tarol does is already going to have that result.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by WearsHats » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:51 pm

The post said KS had already flagged the project.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by ChuckDaRighteous » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:48 pm

I have a few things to say about this, after crawling all over the kickstarter site.

One thing is that "head of the Integrity team" sounds like a dressed up term for lawyer. The fact that they're already in a cover your ass mindset towards you is deeply troubling to me.
We do reserve the right to disclose personal information when we believe that doing so is reasonably necessary to comply with the law or law enforcement, to prevent fraud or abuse, or to protect KickstarterÔÇÖs legal rights.
Since you're dealing with lawyers, I will point out wording matters. And they say prevent fraud or abuse. This means that since the fraud has already happened, they wouldn't be preventing it. Damn lawyers. However...

Under "what's public" it says "projects you've backed (but not pledge amounts or rewards chosen)" Since this information is public you should be able to get a list with at least some information. You won't get donation amounts but you would at least get a limited backer list. You should at least be able to get the kickstarter account names. Its not everything you need, but its a good starting point.

They also pointed out terms of use so from the terms of service:
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If theyÔÇÖre unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
While Evertide games is the account that started it. You are attributed as a "creator" of the game. This by their own definition you are responsible. Either you are responsible or not but the way that is worded means you should either be given the list as a creator or be free from all obligation by not being the creator.

Since you're dealing with lawyers there are things they will likely do eagerly. Since I'm assuming you had no account access to the page, you can't change it. Given that, there are some things I would do in your next correspondence:
---request that the project be clearly flagged on its kickstarter page so that backers aren't completely in the dark since you can't contact all of them without the list
---request that the the notice be clear that ever-tide games, not Tarol Hunt is the offending party since your name is all over the project.
---request the limited account name backer list.
---request that their terms of use be updated to reflect the distinction between creator and the account holder so you are not held legally responsible in any way. (if they're in CYA mode you should be too)
---remove any links to evertide games site since they are still taking people's money. (this would clearly fall under preventing fraud)

The final thing I'd say is that the responses from kickstarter seem too guarded. The fact that they are reluctant in any way to act is troubling. If you request any of the above and they don't act on at least some of them, I'd be very worried. Hopefully some of that will be helpful.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:46 pm

I can see why they are guarded. Remember they are guarding personal information of the backers, how would they verify that the person who sent the email was actually thunt and not a scam artist trying to steal information? They probably have a non disclosure agreement, to keep identities safe.

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by deFrisselle » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:00 pm

Backers may want to contact the CT Attorney General's Office.

http://www.ct.gov/ag/lib/ag/consumers/c ... ntform.pdf

Also the FTC

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by SeeAMoose » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:53 pm

SUGauthor wrote:This is ridiculous, no one on the backer list would care about them handing personal information to him, that's essentially what we were doing when we backed the project to begin with. I'm not sure what they're thinking.
Sessine wrote:Thunt's next communication with Kickstarter should be a lawyer's letter. I suspect a lawyer would advise focusing on two key points:

1. Kickstarter's own privacy policy says:
"We do reserve the right to disclose personal information when we believe that doing so is reasonably necessary to comply with the law or law enforcement, to prevent fraud or abuse, or to protect KickstarterÔÇÖs legal rights."

2. As Thunt said in his first update about this:
"As of now, Evertide is no longer involved with the Kickstarter or G:AR and IÔÇÖm taking on all efforts and responsibilities. Also, last week marked the contractual deadline for the release of the game. Which means that every aspect of G:AR, even the parts designed and created by Evertide, became legally mine." (The lawyer's letter would, of course, quote from actual contract language.)

They can legally release the list. Their lawyers are just worried that they'd be stepping into the middle of something if they did. What a properly worded lawyer's letter from Tarol can do is convince them that they are already in the middle of something, and the least-risk course for them is to release the list.
I hope Thunt is somehow able to get the list because his heart is certainly in the right place... but I would honestly be a little surprised if KS turned it over to him. Even with the inclusion of language from his contract with Evertide, I suspect they would be very hesitant to turn over detailed personal information about 2,272 people.

Think about it from their perspective. If just one person is pissed about them giving Thunt the info and decides to take action by either suing or going to the media, then they have a problem. With over 2,000 backers there is a decent chance that at least one person might have a problem with them giving out that info. If even 1% of the backers have a problem with that, you have 22.7 people (the extra .7 is someone who had a run in with Kore) who could be upset. To them it's really not worth taking that risk. They've already made their money on the transactions, so their primary concern is just protecting themselves legally, not making sure backers actually receive what they pledged for.

Also remember that not everyone who backed is likely to be a devoted Goblins fan. To be sure, most of them will be, but there will also be some people who backed the game because they thought it looked cool, and others will be more casual readers. There may be a fair number of backers who like the comic but don't know much about Thunt and would be uncomfortable with Kickstarter giving Thunt their email address, mailing address, and how much they pledged.

If this were any other project, would you really be comfortable with Kickstarter just handing your personal information over to someone other than the person who created the project? Honestly, if I didn't know Thunt as well as I do, or if I happened to be a casual reader who just knew who he was and not much more, I think I would be uneasy about Kickstarter just giving him my info. I mean I'm already a little uneasy about how companies use and share my data for commercial purposes ( and in this age of data breaches we're all going to get our identities stolen anyways), but the idea of a company willingly give my information to someone other than the person I gave money to is very concerning to me. To be clear, in this case I'd be completely fine with them sending Thunt my info... but my point is that others may not be. Not saying the way KS is doing things isn't frustrating... but the reasons behind it make a certain kind of sense, and it may even be the right thing to do.

Setting aside the potential privacy issues, I am really looking forward to this game becoming a reality. I just hope Thunt is very cautious about how he proceeds. I worry about what might happen if he actually assumed legal responsibility for the project (which I know he hasn't talked about doing... but still) or if people decide to go after him because the rights for the game defaulted to him.

I really don't want to see him kill himself financially to make things right. For me, I think it would be more than enough if he sent us digital copies of the game for us to print at home. If he really wanted to go overboard he could set up something through a print on demand service where we could pay to have them printed. He absolutely should not try to print them all himself and ship them out himself out of pocket, there's just no way he could afford to in the game's current form. I was curious... so of course I tried to ballpark it:
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I had a point I was going to make before I started to come up with a "quick" estimate of the price... but now I can't remember it... ah well.

Oh, Thunt please be careful.

(Also hi guys, it's been far too long since I've had the time to post, I've missed you all... except WearsHats and Krulle... and maybe Sessine... you know I've never been crazy about that liesmith fellow either, he's just too shifty :paranoia: :P but other than them I haven't been actively avoiding all of you. I've just been watching intently :o_O: )
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Krulle » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:46 am

Thanks for the quick estimate.
I actually feared worse...
But then you haven't put in any shipping to Europe or Asia. But it might be worth it finding a print-on-demand shop locally for the inner-Europe and Asia/Australia shipping, and have the game printed and shipped from "here".
SeeAMoose wrote:(Also hi guys, it's been far too long since I've had the time to post, I've missed you all... except WearsHats and Krulle... and maybe Sessine... you know I've never been crazy about that liesmith fellow either, he's just too shifty :paranoia: :P but other than them I haven't been actively avoiding all of you. I've just been watching intently :o_O: )
For this alone, you deserve a hug, old friend.
So, have a seat.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by WearsHats » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:56 am

Ha! Moose is actively ignoring me! I can say whatever I want!

Well, I'm going to start by closing the door on you! Ha!
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Also... At least $60k out of Thunt's pocket? Yeesh.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by SeeAMoose » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:20 am

Yeah, $60k is if he just does the cards themselves for the main game and maybe the shield of wonder cards, once you add in the little tokens, dice, boxes, etc. Of course this also assumes that Thunt is going to try to produce the game as described and isn't adding anything additional or actually cutting it down a little. I'm sure there are also better options for printing it on demand, and maybe he could find a company where he would just sink his share of the profits back into reducing the cost of the cards. Either way though, it would be a sizable investment. Wears, you know Thunt a lot better than any of us, please ask him not to keep making promises without first figuring out how he's going to deliver on them. I love Thunt and I know he has the best of intentions, but this is just too much for one person to take on by themselves. The only two ways I see it working are if either: everyone pays the base production cost to have it made, or if he is somehow able to get the remaining funds (if any) from Evertide.

Also, running these numbers it has become very clear to me how Evertide ran into trouble, because they promised a lot more than what I ran the estimate for. They probably also had a cheaper manufacturer... but nonetheless the production costs alone are sizable. Add in 3 conventions, salaries, etc...
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Krulle » Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:33 am

Yeah, 182k$ for development, art, manufacturing, and the ridiculous amount of extras? (and shipping and the KS share.... I always disliked that the shipping cost gets added up inside the KS amount, and not being set aside separately)

It is doable, but most of the extras I suspect cost more than they would gain...

I could suggest Thunt what (not) to do, but it's not within my rights to do so...I could say I've said something before, but what's the point? I just cannot shut up, and therefore I'm hiding it as zero-sized text. Nobody likes wise guys, so I'll just shut up now
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by WearsHats » Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:43 am

I ran your numbers past a friend of mine (and fellow Goblins fan) who is very much into card game design and has been for a decade.
US based printing would run in the vicinity of 52k presuming the only contents are a rule book, cards, and the game box. That does not include any shipping or distribution costs. There are Chinese companies that can slash at least 40% off that price but that comes with international shipping a and customs issues Thunt may not be prepared to take on.
China would also bring up labor ethics issues. And an ongoing dock workers strike on the West Coast has been disastrous for shipping from there.

You make a good point about Evertide, too. We're in this mess because they promised more than they could deliver. Counting on future sales to make up for losd leaders, perhaps, but as others have pointed out, most of the people who were going to buy the game likely already have. I don't want Thunt falling into the same trap. Not to mention that he's still working on his more than full time job of making the comic.

I passed the info along to him. Be we haven't chatted much of late. He's been busy, and I've been more exhausted than usual.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Lurks_In_Shadows » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:50 pm

I don't have a dog in this fight, but a suggestion I would make for Thunt: If he really feels an obligation to get this thing out, then I would suggest doing it in small stages rather than one big batch. Spread the costs out. I'm pretty sure most people would rather wait for the item rather than not get it at all, or worse yet, stress Thunt to the point he has a relapse.

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Krulle » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:33 pm

That's how I understood Thunt's blogs anyway. Using print on demand is more expensive, but you can order only one copy at a time.... I understood that whenever he has a bit cash to give, he would buy a few copies and send them out....

With this sum you would have to spread it out over several years.... With a family, kids, a just bought house, and, as self-employed, the need to (re)build a reserve.... I see more than a decade, plus the time to finish the game first.....

Thunt: give us a last promise, please. No more promises outside of Goblins comics, please.....
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by napslikecat » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:34 pm

Wow.. just came up with an idea, and Lurks beats me to it.. kind of.

Instead of all the bazillion options, why not make a base game with expansions? That way Tarol can keep costs down, people can play the game, and the expansions could add additional intricacies and more complex gameplay, adding elements from the story. Plus, if Tarol is keen on getting a game out to everyone at his own cost, the expansions could help recoup those costs and give him a way out of the financial hole. Tarol could ship out the base game on his dime if he really wanted to, and backers who want to pay for it (again) can buy the expansions, everyone's honour will be satisfied.

The main problem with this is what aspects you can put into the expansions without crippling the base game too much, and balance issues could be a bit tougher with and without expansions.

I don't have a dog in this fight because the shipping from evertide was just too high at the time (and it galled me that I could get to Thunt's house in person with lower travel costs). But I wanted a copy then and still intend to buy a copy now when the game is complete.

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Just Karen » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:41 pm

napslikecat wrote:Wow.. just came up with an idea, and Lurks beats me to it.. kind of.

Instead of all the bazillion options, why not make a base game with expansions? That way Tarol can keep costs down, people can play the game, and the expansions could add additional intricacies and more complex gameplay, adding elements from the story. Plus, if Tarol is keen on getting a game out to everyone at his own cost, the expansions could help recoup those costs and give him a way out of the financial hole. Tarol could ship out the base game on his dime if he really wanted to, and backers who want to pay for it (again) can buy the expansions, everyone's honour will be satisfied.

The main problem with this is what aspects you can put into the expansions without crippling the base game too much, and balance issues could be a bit tougher with and without expansions.

I don't have a dog in this fight because the shipping from evertide was just too high at the time (and it galled me that I could get to Thunt's house in person with lower travel costs). But I wanted a copy then and still intend to buy a copy now when the game is complete.
I like this idea. Of course, I'm in a similar boat - the kickstarter happened at a time when money was just not available, so I planned on buying a copy later.

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Sessine » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:08 pm

Oh man. Thank you, Moose, for doing those calculations. I knew it might be prohibitively expensive to do what Thunt has been saying he wants to do, I knew somebody had to do the math... but somehow I was shrinking from doing it myself. It's eyeopening.

Here's the bottom line: Evertide didn't do the math, either. Even if they had devoted every penny from the kickstarter to printing and shipping the Goblins game, with no money at all spent on development or promotion... what with all the bells and whistles and bigger heavier boxes full of more loot that they were promising, they STILL might not have broken even on this. Worse, they'd made the exact same mistake on the KoL game earlier, and so they diverted much of the money from the Goblins KS to fulfill those promises.

If KS refuses to release that backer list, I think everyone who cares about Thunt's welfare should heave a deep sigh of relief. He hasn't done the math yet either, I bet, unless he knows of some secret magic that will get him free shipping and printing. If he can't get that list, maybe he can't bankrupt himself trying to do what his Paladin-instincts led him to promise.

Thunt wants this game to exist. (So do I... though no doubt less than he does.) If he takes the base Evertide left him, and adds his own personal touches, it will surely be a very fun game to play. But no way in hell can he afford to replace out of his own pocket all the pledged money that Evertide should have reserved for printing, assembly, and shipping -- but didn't!

I had already resolved that IF he was crazy enough to ship me a completed boxed game, I was going to give him back what it had cost him via Patreon. But that's just me. It's not gonna scale up to all 2120 backers. If he can't get that list, and now I'm really hoping he can't, here's something he could do:

1. At his own expense (mostly his time, but he seems to be enjoying that part), he could create an electronic print-and-play version of his new and improved G:AR, and make that freely available to anyone who says they would, yes please, like a copy of the game. Will that end up giving out copies to some people who weren't actually backers? Sure. They'll all be fans and wellwishers or they wouldn't be asking, and I would bet most of them either will be people who did back the KS or they really wanted to but couldn't. Don't make people lie to claim it... just give it out to anyone who asks. This will not satisfy any accountant, but I bet it'll make most of the backers very happy.

2. For those people who really want a slick fancy Goblins game with pretty dice and a laminated playmat and all that, he could make a print-on-demand version, either with his current publisher Drivethru, or (another option) with The Game Crafter, and sell it at cost through their online shop. Yes, backers who go for that will be paying twice. But they'll be choosing to pay a second time. Many people won't go for it, but some will.



An unrelated point... because of shipping costs and the VAT, I have looked long and hard for a print-on-demand card printing company situated within the EU that could do the same thing as Drivethru or TGC, except from inside the EU. If anyone finds such a company, please, please, please let me know!
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Krulle » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:42 am

There's "spieltz, a German POD store for boardgames.
Alas, I did not see a sample calculation.
They are a platform where game developers can publish their game, and testprint it. Later full prints, sale, and shipping are possible.
I found them via a review site (2011), where the complaint was, that they only offer the board, no figures, cards, etc...
Now they offer all that, and custom figures (if you pay for them). They do not want the game rights, so the author can always withdraw the game again when he found a larger publisher....
They are not know for cheapness,mthough, but they were the first such platform in Germany...

Edit they sell backgammon for 23euro, with dice, stones, and as test print ("LKW plane"- printed truck tarpaulin). cardboard board and carton as game package from 100 games upwards...
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by hyzmarca » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:31 am

Kickstarter 101: Determine the fulfillment costs of all your rewards tiers first.

Subtract the fulfillment costs from the tier's minimum pledge. This result should be a positive number. Divide this result by the tier's minimum pledge. Now subtract 10% if the tier starts at less than $10, otherwise subtract 8%. If your reward tier is for international backers subtract 11%, instead. If your tier has no shippable rewards, assume international donors and subtract 11%. The resulting number should be positive. If it isn't, stop immediately and rethink your rewards.

This result is the percentage of your kickstarter funds from that tier that you'll actually be able to spend on your project. In business, this is called your margin.

Do this calculation for all of your tiers and compare them. Take the that has the smallest margin. This is your worst case scenario. When you put up your kickstarter you should assume that the worst case scenario is the one that you're going to get. Otherwise you could run into problems fulfilling your rewards.

Divide you projected project costs by your margin. This is the amount you'll actually need to raise to meet those costs in your worst case scenario and is the goal you should be shooting for in order to reduce the probability of fulfillment issues to the minimum.


In other words, if you have a 20,000 project and a 10% margin then you need to shoot for 200,000 in order to ensure that you'll break even in all cases (baring project cost overruns). Any extra you make due to not suffering the worst case scenario will give you wiggle room on your project.

The simple way to improve your worst case scenario is to reduce your rewards, which you absolutely should do if they're too high. Incidentally, your reward value relative the the tier minimum is what will determine the difference between a sale and a gift when the IRS asks for their cut. Though, reasonably, you should keep meticulous records of your expenses and not spend on frivolous non-deductible things, so that you won't be left with a lot of spent taxable income and no way to pay those taxes in April. Every expenditure should be an actual reasonable, ordinary, and necessary business expense going towards the project. And by god, make those payments in a reasonable time frame so that future liabilities they aren't sitting in your coffers as profits when it comes time to calculate taxes.

Honestly, the actual amount of usable money that people get out of kickstarter is a low smaller than everyone thinks it is.

And yeah, Evertide Ganmes seems to have totally failed to understand this.


Incidentally, Kickstarter's polite email is basically saying that their lawyers tell them that they could face legal liability for turning over the list to a third party, ergo they're not going to do it. If you have a subpoena they won't hesitate. They'd probably hand it over to a cop investigating fraud, as well, but they might want a subpoena in that case, too, just to cover their butts from potential liability, depends on the laws and what their lawyers say. But since Thunt doesn't have a subpoena and isn't a cop, he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on in terms of getting the list from Kickstarter. A privacy policy does have legal implications.

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Sessine » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:24 am

Krulle wrote:There's "spieltz, a German POD store for boardgames.
Alas, I did not see a sample calculation.
They are a platform where game developers can publish their game, and testprint it. Later full prints, sale, and shipping are possible.
I found them via a review site (2011), where the complaint was, that they only offer the board, no figures, cards, etc...
Now they offer all that, and custom figures (if you pay for them). They do not want the game rights, so the author can always withdraw the game again when he found a larger publisher....
They are not know for cheapness,mthough, but they were the first such platform in Germany...

Edit they sell backgammon for 23euro, with dice, stones, and as test print ("LKW plane"- printed truck tarpaulin). cardboard board and carton as game package from 100 games upwards...
Thank you! I have no German at all, which is embarrassing. I'd try to navigate their site all the same with the aid of Google Translate, and maybe occasional help from my son who does speak German, but their Preislisten page offers no specifics, and... I get the feeling they're not really interested in printing small custom card decks. Links that lead nowhere, pages with lines that look like they ought to be links, but aren't... They want me to email them for a price quote, which is a bit daunting. (And yeah, I can hear all you non-native English speakers privately chortling!)

Edit: So I sent my probably-very-ungrammatical email. I dunno if I'll pursue this very far, though. Depends what answer I get. So far it doesn't look all that promising.



Here's one thing I could do: I have some experience now setting up print-on-demand games on TGC. I could totally do the same thing for Thunt at no cost to him, if that's what he ends up doing. Or show him the ropes, because it's not hard. (I have no connection with The Game Crafter except as a designer who's used their services for a while, and I don't want money. I just want to see Thunt get through this.)
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Krulle » Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:53 pm

If you need some German help, PM me...
But from what I saw, they don't have public price lists, but want you to mail specifics and they'll send custom offers.
That's why I looked at games they have available.

They do specialise in board games, the cards are a recent extra they added (in 2011 they did not have a card printing service, not even in connection with board games).
Goblinscomic transcriptions
Collection of G:AR cards

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DrinksBeer
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by DrinksBeer » Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:24 pm

FWIW this is the company that Evertide was going to use to print the game:

http://grandprixintl.com

They manufacture in China.

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by deFrisselle » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:24 pm

Thunt may want to consider looking into a DMCA Cease and Desist Letter to be sent to KickStarter and Facebook due to his IP on the G:AR pages on both sites. He has stated in his updates that the contract with Evertide is broken and the game IP has reverted to him. So, he has that right. Either way, his Goblins IP is used on both pages. He may also want to hit up Evertides web host with such a letter, since their site still has postings about the game and Goblins images on them.

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by frontalbread » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:44 pm

There is also international law kickstarter has to abide by when releasing data.

Example, for the UK we have the Data Protection Act which governs whom to a company can give data to, that it has to be adequately protected, and cannot be held for longer than is necessary.

Over here, releasing personal data to a person not attached to the actual account would open a whole bag of worms up for kickstarter, which is likely one of the reasons they aren't been forthcoming.

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Krulle
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Post by Krulle » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:24 am

Kickstarter is not bound by any EU laws regarding data protection, as their base of operations is the US, and this project was a project started in the US (on the US-platform of KS).

If an European subsidiary of Kickstarted had run this project, then the European rules would apply, depending on in which country the KS subsidiary is situated.
(But according to US law, the US mother might still be subject to US law and might still have to give out the data - a dilemma facebook, Microsoft and Google are facing regularly. Microsoft is in court in the US, as the US wants MS to hand over private data (court order, the judge decided that foreign data falls under US-law if the mother company is US-American), while the EU-Ireland laws forbid MS to hand over data, while the US-law states they have to hand over data they control (through foreign subsidiaries not falling under US law)). So MS has the choice which law they will break. With penalties threatened from both sides.
Subsidiaries of EU-companies in the US are not forced to hand over private data controlled of their EU-mother companies. Yet.

-> Use European companies where possible. But the NSA/Homeland Security might have your data anyway. :p
Goblinscomic transcriptions
Collection of G:AR cards

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