Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

[CooksACarrot]

Well, I think this whole project has probably soured THunt on outsourcing in general (for good or ill, I don't know). Fortunately, as he did not own the project I don't think he can be sued for its failing to deliver. Unfortunately, I highly doubt he will ever get the list from Kickstarter, lawyers are EXTREMELY cautious when it comes to this kind of liability. He might be able to ask them to send a message to all the backers on his behalf, telling them to speak to him about details about the project moving forward. As long as they don't turn over the information to him directly, but continue to act as an intermediary, this should not violate their privacy policies. This is absolutely not the first time a project has been funded and failed, they must have some sort of contingencies in place.

I hope THunt is following this thread a bit, I think there have been a lot of helpful suggestions he should be aware of (Hi THunt!). I do worry that he is taking on too much too early, but he does have to be aware of the potential damage to his brand.

[Changes_everything]

I don't get it. I mean, the whole picture.

- A Kickstarter project starts, people pay money after the limit has been reached. They pay to the creator, Kickstarter gets its share.
- So far so good. Now, there is no legal guarantee (by Kickstarter!) that the money will actually be put to the use that was promised.
- But if the project is proven to have been a scam (not by our artist of course, but by the people he trusted...), wouldn't the backers be entitled to claim information from Kickstarter, even if reclaiming the percentage might not be affected?

Question B.

If that G:AR site is still taking registrations AND people's money, there must be a way to follow said money. Not for everybody perhaps, but I'm talking about the FBI or the Royal Canadian mounted police if need be.

Why Thunt is not sueing the sh*t out of everybody in that chain seems clear to me, he can't afford it - ok, but why not have them found and arrested by the authorities?
A fraud case of that magnitude, can't the police be bothered to investigate such a thing or what's the deal?

[CooksACarrot]

That assumes it is fraud, rather than just running your business shittily. It would seem that what we have here (granted I do not have all the facts, but this seems the most likely scenario based on the available information) is a case of a guy handed a whole bunch of money for a project, using it to expand (in terms of staff and other commitments) far more quickly than he should have, or would have had the money been coming in steadily instead of being in one lump sum. Think of it like a guy who wins the lottery, takes a lump payment and ends up bankrupt in a few years because he can't manage it all (this happens WAY more often than you would think), or a guy that thought this was his big break and things would be awesome forever. He used that money to fund other projects while the game was still in development (big mistake, the development money and the production and distribution money should have been handled separately), but because the game wasn't published, and because the vast majority of the target audience had already paid, no new money was coming in to replace it. The money evaporated (180,000 is NOT a lot when you are paying salaries and rent on top of everything else, and it is also not enough to retire on when your business fails), and he disappeared in a cloud of panic and/or shame. Evertide was not a fly-by-night company set up to run a scam, they had been around for a while and had a history, but they also were not large enough to handle a project as big as this became. Had this received a smaller amount of money up front, with the promise of more sales to come, this would have turned out differently.

I imagine that the website is still taking orders because the system is automated and no one has shut it down, not because anyone seriously thinks that they will get a lot of money out of it.

[mustache_man]

- But if the project is proven to have been a scam (not by our artist of course, but by the people he trusted...), wouldn't the backers be entitled to claim information from Kickstarter, even if reclaiming the percentage might not be affected?

You can ask whatever you want. They'd would be stupid to give sensitive information to anyone without a court order. So if anyone actually has a legitimate reason to ask for that info they need to go through the proper channels.

If that G:AR site is still taking registrations AND people's money, there must be a way to follow said money. Not for everybody perhaps, but I'm talking about the FBI or the Royal Canadian mounted police if need be.

Why Thunt is not sueing the sh*t out of everybody in that chain seems clear to me, he can't afford it - ok, but why not have them found and arrested by the authorities?
A fraud case of that magnitude, can't the police be bothered to investigate such a thing or what's the deal?

It's not necessarily fraud. Even if nobody starts a lawsuit, someone might be bothered to check if it makes enough noise in the right places, but even if there's an investigation it might turn up nothing. Companies go belly up after all.


I'll be honest. After all this time and all the stuff I read about it, the only surprise for me is that some people are actually surprised by the outcome.

[Changes_everything]

He used that money to fund other projects while the game was still in development (big mistake, the development money and the production and distribution money should have been handled separately), but because the game wasn't published, and because the vast majority of the target audience had already paid, no new money was coming in to replace it.

Do you know that for a fact?

Because if that were so, it would probably (I can't be sure, I'm not learned in US or Canadian law, but it would certainly be considered that in western European legal systems) constitute a breach of trust, not just a breach of contract - in relation to Thunt, with whom Evertide had an agreement on how the money would be used. Also some bankruptcy rules might apply.

Of course all of this is a bit speculative anyway, without having seen all the paperwork you never know, but still. Looks very much like some criminal behaviour to me, on the outside...

[deFrisselle]

I don't get it. I mean, the whole picture.

- A Kickstarter project starts, people pay money after the limit has been reached. They pay to the creator, Kickstarter gets its share.
- So far so good. Now, there is no legal guarantee (by Kickstarter!) that the money will actually be put to the use that was promised.
- But if the project is proven to have been a scam (not by our artist of course, but by the people he trusted...), wouldn't the backers be entitled to claim information from Kickstarter, even if reclaiming the percentage might not be affected?

Question B.

If that G:AR site is still taking registrations AND people's money, there must be a way to follow said money. Not for everybody perhaps, but I'm talking about the FBI or the Royal Canadian mounted police if need be.

Why Thunt is not sueing the sh*t out of everybody in that chain seems clear to me, he can't afford it - ok, but why not have them found and arrested by the authorities?
A fraud case of that magnitude, can't the police be bothered to investigate such a thing or what's the deal?

See my post towards the bottom of the previous page about contacting the CT Attorney General's office to file a complaint. A few filed complaints will get them investigating. Same with the FTC. Contacting the police in New Canaan, CT would be another option.

I do worry that Thunt is planning an unsustainable and economically dangerous way to fulfill what was promised in the KS. This stated plan he intends is the way to bankruptcy or never ending slow fulfillment. His best bet is just to finish up the game and let people buy via print on demand at they want. He'll just have to come to terms that people got ripped off, mostly his fans, and he got taken along for the ride. All while trying to work on this comic.

[CooksACarrot]

Well, I don't think we know anything for sure and for certain, but even if the money didn't directly fund other projects, it likely subsidized them through increased staff, building costs and other things.

[Sessine]

I do worry that Thunt is planning an unsustainable and economically dangerous way to fulfill what was promised in the KS. This stated plan he intends is the way to bankruptcy or never ending slow fulfillment. His best bet is just to finish up the game and let people buy via print on demand at they want. He'll just have to come to terms that people got ripped off, mostly his fans, and he got taken along for the ride. All while trying to work on this comic.

This.

Yes, it sucks that Evertide isn't going to deliver what they promised. Too bad, but I am a grownup. I knew there was a risk, and I took a chance. I can't win them all. It would suck far worse for me if Thunt ruined himself financially trying to deliver what they won't.

Thunt, if you're reading this: think about what's important. To yourself -- and to your fans. Do we want you to spend all your time and slender resources on the unachievable quest of delivering on Evertide's promises? Hell, no!

First: we care about the Goblins story. Most of all, we want to know what happens next in the comic! That won't happen if you're swallowed up by G:AR!

Second: Yes, G:AR would have been a cool card game. It still can be. The rules are the essence of the game, and after that, the cards with your art. If you're having fun refining the rules, then go ahead and do that. Make them Thunt-awesome. This is called development, and it needs to be done. Once you have a game that's been improved with all your RP touches, a game you think is now worth getting out into the wider world... make a print-and-play version that people can download, and let anyone who asks, playtest it. This will achieve the most important objective. The game will exist! And people -- backers, most of them -- will be playing it! Objective achieved! And you are not sinking under a mountain of debt! Bonus!

After a while -- if you want to, and the playtesters are asking you to do it -- create a fancier print-on-demand version for sale in some printer's online marketplace. There are options. (And you still won't be sinking under a mountain of debt!) But that's for later. First, just relax and have fun creating the game.

[Glemp]

I think the best compromise would be to discount replacement shipments to cost of production. It'll still cost the backers, but Thunt won't make profit either.

[speakslittle]

Looks like he got the backer list. Maybe RJ is reaching out.
Fingers crossed.

[Krulle]

Huge step forward! I now have a list of every #GARBacker who put in $11 and up. Both KS and PayPal backers! I have all those emails! XD

And it's looking like I can probably get the rest of the #GARBacker ppl too. Blog update coming soon.

Oh hell yes! I just this minute got Richard's phone number. #GARBacker

The game itself is coming together beautifully. It's something that I'm becoming very proud of.#GARBacker

[Vrie]

Worst case, could Thunt release the game through someone else or as an online game? Does he still control the Intellectual Property of the game or is it locked up with Evertide?

[WearsHats]

According to the blog posts, since Evertide failed to deliver by the agreed upon date, Thunt has full rights to the game. Print on demand is a possibility, though I don't know how he'd feel about that. He did mention interest in seeing it developed as an online game, but he can't do that himself.

[Chir]

Though the problems are not directly related to kickstarter concept its self, kickstarter could do a better job policing the probable criminal who absconded with the funds. If not for Thunt then for the people who donated with faith that kickstarter is not a scam. Kickstarter not kicking this up a notch encourages the con-artists who fleece both the donators and creators.

Interestingly enough. The company in question who's owner absconded with the funds still has its website running under Amazon Web Services. Although it looks like it was abandoned around 10/13. The fact that it is still there also leads to whois dns information, which leads to owner email addresses and company address. Further research uncovers that his admin physical address whois dns information is out of date and he has moved since then which was revealed under public property records. All of this is publicly available and took 15 min discover.

I am considering firing up my Tails and running a Tor to send him an email and politely ask him to do the right thing and contact Thunt to work it out. If that doesn't work there is always a fax from an anonymous email repeater and lastly a simple letter with the same information. Couldn't hurt to ask nicely.

[RocketScientist]

I suspect that Thunt would appreciate it if you shared your findings with him, personally.

[CooksACarrot]

THunt's last tweet indicated that he would post a new update on the whole affair two days from now, and an earlier tweet indicated that he had found current contact information for the person in question, so I think we should probably cool our jets until January 2nd, once we have received new information and had time to process it.

[Krulle]

He has Richard's phone number, as shown in this post.

Just a reminder that #Goblins starts up again on New Years Day. I'll have a #GARBacker update and responses done before then.

[RocketScientist]

Just to clarify, we don't need to be doing anything ourselves, as far as the Kickstarter. If you have information that you think Thunt might find useful, feel free to share it with him. Please don't post anything here, or go after the company yourself. Thunt is handling things.

[Glemp]

Just to clarify, we don't need to be doing anything ourselves, as far as the Kickstarter. If you have information that you think Thunt might find useful, feel free to share it with him. Please don't post anything here, or go after the company yourself. Thunt is handling things.

Well sonovacrap, what am I gonna do with all these torches and pitchforks now? I guess I could sell them to Tumblr, everyone seems to victimised in some way there, or maybe to the Star Wars fan forums, they're always at civil war over something...

[CooksACarrot]

But what are anonymous forums for if not to enact random acts of misplaced justice?

[Xaosmaster]

► Show Spoiler

I registered just so I could post here...

This guy should not be too hard to find. We have the internet...

[mod="RocketScientist"]links removed[/mod]

[mod="RocketScientist"]What did I just say? Hint: Don't post personal information.[/mod]

[CooksACarrot]

At this point, none of us should be trying to find this person. THunt has contact information for him (the Facebook page has apparently been ignored for months in any case), and is dealing with the issue. Any vigilante activity on his behalf is only going to make his life, and any potential legal action he will choose to undertake, much more difficult. Despite my previous, lighthearted post I do not believe this is something that should be undertaken by any fan of THunt or any member of a forum linked to him. Especially as we DO NOT know what has happened, why this person has been incommunicado, or even if there is money left to recover. There will be new information tomorrow from THunt himself, until then any speculation or attempts to track down and/or destroy this person should be on hold. Anything more than speculation should be put on hold indefinitely. THunt does not need cops knocking at his door to take him in because of activities done on his behalf without his consent or knowledge.

Incidently, is it THunt or Thunt? I have seen it both ways, and tend to go with THunt myself, but I always get a nagging feeling that I am doing it wrong, like when I use a semi-colon.

[WearsHats]

Thunt* already has him on FB. He mentioned that Richard wasn't responding to messages there.

We do not condone stalking or harassment.

*

► Show Spoiler

It started off as T Hunt, but ended up becoming a nickname. Either is correct. FWIW, his Twitter handle is Thunt_Goblins. So that's how he does it.

[kisa360]

IS it just me or has the goblins pre-order been removed from the website?

[Krulle]

Looks like it.
I take this as a good sign.