Kliks Info

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Sockmonkey
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Sockmonkey » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:04 am

We don't know that Junior was actually metal. Other things can be smooth and shiny. All we know for sure is what his positive and negative are, along with why he's green. We have to see if Thunt is willing to nail it down for us.
On that note, while it's easy to see why it's forbidden for kliks to permanently bond with non-kliks, I'm curious as to why it apparently makes them crazy.

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RidcullyJack
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by RidcullyJack » Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:37 am

I think that the thing that Klik did for Dies was somehow akin to the process of a group of kliks forming a klok. This would merge similar minds of the kliks into one mind for the klok. But by making a partial merge of some subset of Klik with Dies, some subpart of Klik's consciousness was connected to an alien mind, and turned crazy (or perhaps Evil).

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Unlucky-for-Some
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Unlucky-for-Some » Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:08 pm

Sockmonkey wrote:We don't know that Junior was actually metal. Other things can be smooth and shiny. All we know for sure is what his positive and negative are, along with why he's green. We have to see if Thunt is willing to nail it down for us.
On that note, while it's easy to see why it's forbidden for kliks to permanently bond with non-kliks, I'm curious as to why it apparently makes them crazy.
There are some niggling thoughts in the back of my head making me think I remember seeing sound effects suggesting metallic-ness ... I will have to go check ...
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Zathyr
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Zathyr » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:11 am

Dies does specifically refer to his arm as metal, before it goes all Junior. http://www.goblinscomic.org/08282006/ (panel 5, right in the middle) I think it's reasonable to think Junior is still metallic.
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Zeus1976
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Zeus1976 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:13 am

RidcullyJack wrote:I think that the thing that Klik did for Dies was somehow akin to the process of a group of kliks forming a klok. This would merge similar minds of the kliks into one mind for the klok. But by making a partial merge of some subset of Klik with Dies, some subpart of Klik's consciousness was connected to an alien mind, and turned crazy (or perhaps Evil).
what our Klik did was essentially created another Klik. When a mommy Klik and a random creature love each other very much ...
Basicly when a Klik sees a species it likes, it creates a small orb who h attches to itself. That orb becomes a new Klik with it's own personality, pros and negative, this process actually makes the creature it bonded with slightly stronger.

Klik only partially completed the process, not giving the orb it's own soul - this backfired badly, I am also guessing it has something to do with why juniors positive is kliks negative

edit -. Link to the pags
http://www.goblinscomic.org/04072006/

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Re: Kliks Info

Post by vernes » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:46 am

PsyCrystal Klik?
Psionic Material Klik?
Living Magic Klik?

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Re: Kliks Info

Post by SpellsBedly » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:52 am

Rorrik wrote:
Zeus1976 wrote:Would be nice to make a basic Klik Creator. Anyone feel up to making a list of possibilitys for kliks?

Here's my stab at the table. I know I missed some options, but this could get you rolling. :P

While this is amazing and detailed work with lots of options I wouldn't have thought of, I would personally tend towards a more open approach. People get a certain amount of base stat points if they have a broad positive and a narrow negative or something, and can just decide everything themselves. That's because the world of Goblins does seem to run at least partially on whatever makes the best story. A hair klik should be able to have moonlight as its positive (and silver as its negative of course), no matter if it exists on the table used. Something like "cold" could also be a kliks positive or negative, despite not being a form of energy but rather an absence of it. A fluid klik with a heat leaning but a cold positive would be awesome, for instance. Kliks materials, positives and negatives are pretty much random, but the "random" options people can come up with are often better, I think, than ones that are actually random. Take a look at the magical options, they're all solid, but it would also be cool to have a klik specifically weak or strong to healing magic, conjuration spells, bard magic, spell like abilities, magic items etc etc. In a table, many of these options should be like a one percent possibility, they're a unique twist to a character, which is why it's so much cooler if whoever wants to use this klik comes up with it themselves.

As another note on this table, A broad or average positive or negative would feel a lot more natural if it was just "metal" or maybe "noble metals", instead of steel, brass, chromium, tin and mercury. But that's something that a version 2 of the chart could do differently.

So, I still like it, it definitely appeals to part of me, but this is one situation where I can also see some drawbacks of completely channeling the world into numbers.

For a DM its a different matter of course, the table is pretty much perfect for rolling out a small tribe of genuinely interesting kliks as fast as possible.

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Rorrik
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Rorrik » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:51 am

SpellsBedly wrote:
Rorrik wrote:
Zeus1976 wrote:Would be nice to make a basic Klik Creator. Anyone feel up to making a list of possibilitys for kliks?

Here's my stab at the table. I know I missed some options, but this could get you rolling. :P

While this is amazing and detailed work with lots of options I wouldn't have thought of, I would personally tend towards a more open approach. People get a certain amount of base stat points if they have a broad positive and a narrow negative or something, and can just decide everything themselves. That's because the world of Goblins does seem to run at least partially on whatever makes the best story. A hair klik should be able to have moonlight as its positive (and silver as its negative of course), no matter if it exists on the table used. Something like "cold" could also be a kliks positive or negative, despite not being a form of energy but rather an absence of it. A fluid klik with a heat leaning but a cold positive would be awesome, for instance. Kliks materials, positives and negatives are pretty much random, but the "random" options people can come up with are often better, I think, than ones that are actually random. Take a look at the magical options, they're all solid, but it would also be cool to have a klik specifically weak or strong to healing magic, conjuration spells, bard magic, spell like abilities, magic items etc etc. In a table, many of these options should be like a one percent possibility, they're a unique twist to a character, which is why it's so much cooler if whoever wants to use this klik comes up with it themselves.

As another note on this table, A broad or average positive or negative would feel a lot more natural if it was just "metal" or maybe "noble metals", instead of steel, brass, chromium, tin and mercury. But that's something that a version 2 of the chart could do differently.

So, I still like it, it definitely appeals to part of me, but this is one situation where I can also see some drawbacks of completely channeling the world into numbers.

For a DM its a different matter of course, the table is pretty much perfect for rolling out a small tribe of genuinely interesting kliks as fast as possible.
I definitely agree. For example, the first thing I put on the magic table was "bloodlight" because that was one we had seen as a specific negative, but then I scratched it in favor of broader categories. I think you should make them up by hand if you're going for story or a main character or something. That or roll randomly on the table and then refine it from "Visible Light" to "Moonlight" at DM fiat. I still think DMs would want to do a lot of that.

For the next iteration on narrow and broad, I was thinking of reorganizing the tables so similar materials were next to eachother, then having narrow mean you get the one you rolled, average mean some area around what you rolled, and wide a larger area around what you rolled, so rolling average and copper gives you copper, brass, silver, bronze, and gold or something like that. I think I'd also add an omni after wide where you get all of the type.

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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Moppety » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:35 pm

I was inspired by the previous chart and decided to give it a go myself. Obviously, it spiraled out of control and I barely even made a dent.

First of all I have to say that so far I'm not such a big fan of the Klik mechanics. So far. I wasn't impressed that much by what Thunt has revealed about them in this thread, but that just may be because he barely scratched the surface and I've come to expect a lot of him. I guess that not liking the idea too much, I felt like making my own version.

Secondly, I'll explain what I went for here. I started out by trying to flesh out mechanics for a very complex table, but when I went into it I spent most of the time actually going into more detail than I planned description-wise. I have a rough draft of the mechanics, mostly in my head, which I'll explain in a moment. I found out that it was very important to me to get an image across and not just say "hey, wouldn't it be cool if a klik was made of X?" That brought me to write some pretty in-depth descriptions of all types and sub-types that went in there, which I hope you'll enjoy.

It was also important to me to encompass as many possibilities as I could in each table, with every table leading to a consecutive one if further detailing is needed. That is to say, if you're rolling for the material your klik is made of, you'd probably want to go down the charts and be fairly detailed. If you're rolling positives or negatives there'll be a dice roll for the amount of consecutive tables you'll be going through, to simulate the possibility of a positive or negative being broadly or narrowly defined. Almost all dice rolls on this table aren't filled out since I'd have to decide on them after it's all set up, and I'm going for a fairly realistic simulation of the abundance of the substances in the world. That's why you'll see those exact percentages on the first material roll - I based it on a quick check of the relative amounts of each klik type in the big reveal panel.

Obviously there's still a ton to add and I'll do it in my own free time when I feel like it, if I feel like it. I've almost only fleshed out the energy type as you can see, and there's still a lot of work to be done there. If you guys will like the little that's already in there I might be motivated to do more, but so far I had fun and it was a pretty cool experiment with building a very complex table (never having built one for anything remotely D&D and not having played D&D nearly at all in my life).

TL;DR
My attempt at a klik table. Very complex, barely fleshed out. Had fun, hope you'll enjoy reading the descriptions.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... ingle=true

Some ideas were inspired by a couple of messages in this thread. A lot was taken from Rorrik's table. Credit goes to all these people and anyone else who wants some.

EDIT: I'm open to all criticism - the harsher the better. I'd love to hear your opinions or any additional ideas. Thanks!

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Rorrik
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Rorrik » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:29 am

I love what you've done with the energy categories. You went much more detailed than I did, and I think you thought a lot more carefully about how to split the categories (I just used Thunt's list and then looked up a list of energy types and picked the ones without overlap). I really did like the descriptions. They really get across the point of the klik table.

I was confused by the temporal handling, but heck, none of us really understands how temporal kliks work yet, so that's no surprise. I can't wait to learn more about that.

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JustRight
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by JustRight » Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:06 am

Klikan - Klokan - Tican - Tocan. What a great vehicle for thinkin' machen. :cheer:
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Moppety » Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:23 am

I based the temporal mechanic on yours, only I added the option of rarer kliks existing in intervals of minutes or hours as well as seconds. It works as follows:

You roll 1d4+2 for the number of moments the klik exists in simultaneously. You move on to rolling the intervals of those moments in seconds - a 3d20 roll for an outcome of 3-60 seconds. If one of those rolls is a natural twenty you move on to roll an additional minute interval. Two natural twenties out of three rolls there move you to another roll, this time 2d12, for an outcome of 2-24 hour intervals. I stopped there because honestly, the chances of rolling that many crits is astonishingly low. If I were to DM a game where you rolled that well that klik would be pretty much elevated to god status.

Example:
Roll 1d4+2 --> 2(+2) = 4 moments.
Roll 3d20 --> 15, 4, 20 = 39 seconds. Natural twenty earns a minute roll.
Roll 3d20 --> 2, 20, 3 = 25 minutes. One natural twenty does not meet the criteria for an hour roll.
This temporal klik exists in four simultaneous moments with intervals of 25 minutes and 39 seconds between any two adjacent moments.

Hope that makes it clear.

Any ideas to upgrade the table?

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Rorrik
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Rorrik » Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:50 am

That does make sense. I was just confused the "you win the campaign" line. While having a 24 hour 45 minute look ahead is valuable, if you're moving around, that's a gap too large to make you all powerful. Suppose you rolled 4 moments, they would be the current moment, this time tomorrow, this time the next day, and this time the day after that, but only in the area where you currently are. This means, when that klik flies into a room, it knows what will happen there in a day, but not what will happen right now, because it wasn't in that room 24 hours ago. I mean, obviously it gets complicated, but with a spacing that wide, the klik is endagered by short term events more than one that can see 2, 4, and 6 seconds ahead, for example. So if the klik stayed in one place, I suppose it could be the god of that place, but I don't think it would be much use in a dungeon crawl. I hope I'm making sense, as Thunt said, this all gets very complicated and paradoxy.

As far as improvements, I think it's just unfinished. To nitpick a little, you have gamma radiation under both EM and nuclear, but that's a blurry area, so it works. Makes me want a neutrino klik. Just to clarify, if I wanted to make the thunderous acoustic klik you described, I would make it a low pitch, harmonic variety, right? This concept of acoustic struck me as really cool. You could have a klik whose positive is the singing of a woman's high voice. It would be so cool to have the klik fighting to defend her while her singing heals it.

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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Moppety » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:13 am

I was being cynical with that comment. In practicality the system you described does work well, especially when taking into account what Thunt said about them consuming paradoxes. I didn't go too far down that road because it makes no sense at all very quickly, which means you could build that time paradox system whatever way you'd like on the one hand, but on the other it will always seem somewhat forced and out of place.

If you do want to nitpick, gamma rays are in the part of the electromagnetic spectrum that's more energetic than x-rays. That means that they consist of photons. Radioactive decay, on the other hand, can emit alpha and beta particles (which are not photons) as well as gamma rays. That's why I included it in both tables, though it's not critical.
No degree in nuclear physics here, just what I learned on my own. If anyone knows the subject any better feel free to correct me, I'll be glad to learn.

Also, I like your idea of a woman's voice as a positive a lot. That's exactly that kind of creativity I'd like to inspire with such specific descriptions. Made my day!

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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Sockmonkey » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:45 am

To add to this, you know those doll creator things? How about one of those for kliks? Wouldn't be all that complicated. mostly just layers for textures, color, and glow effects.

Kliks kind of work like Pokemon it seems.

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Rorrik
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Rorrik » Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:35 pm

Moppety wrote:If you do want to nitpick, gamma rays are in the part of the electromagnetic spectrum that's more energetic than x-rays. That means that they consist of photons. Radioactive decay, on the other hand, can emit alpha and beta particles (which are not photons) as well as gamma rays. That's why I included it in both tables, though it's not critical.
No degree in nuclear physics here, just what I learned on my own. If anyone knows the subject any better feel free to correct me, I'll be glad to learn.
Not a physicist, but an electrical engineer focused on EM. You're right that radioactive decay emits the particles as well as the gamma rays. It's perfectly legitimate to put it in both. I did some lumping with just "Nuclear" for radioactivity and "Ionizing" for Gamma and X rays. Gamma rays are technically in both on mine as well. :P

More critical points (or problems I foresee or whatever you want to call them): 1) Thunt said something to imply that stone-like kliks fell under metal, but you have them under organic. Full disclosure: I simply ignored the existence of rock in my first go at the chart because it seemed complicated. 2) Cool and Warm are way awesome as klik types, but very rough or fortuitous as negatives or positives respectively, especially if you get both. Just something to think about when you get to that part. (I am stealing the Hot and Cold thermal split though for my next iteration.) 3) I realize there has been some disagreement on this point, but I'll stand by my understanding. I think all fluid kliks are actually liquids at room temperature, but can become gaseous or solid at extreme temperatures depending on which they favor. I think fluid was an unfortunate use of words where liquid would have served better in a literal interpretation. Thunt will have to clarify to be sure, though. That said, I love the colorful descriptions in your table. Acoustic is still giving me ideas: a metallic klik that thrives on the sounds of clanging weapons and armor or maybe just the sounds of the battlefield in general. :cheer:

I just realized something while working on liquids: if Forgath has the any mug with him right now, then he has with him a source of infinite healing and power for any (barring acids and such) liquid positive kliks in the congregation. We just need to hope one of the kliks merged into one of those kloks was a healing magic energy klik.

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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Zeus1976 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:15 pm

The klik I made is
metallic Klik with the special ability to take on the properties of any none magical metal it comes into contact with (it must take a round of concentration to change state, due to it's special ability its shape change ability is limited, he can only store one shape other than it's normal at a time (the one it usually stores is a broadsword)
it's positive is the blood of evil magical creatures
it's negative is any metal which had been enchanted.

this Klik has grouped up with a high level paladin, the paladin had a pouch of coins each made from different metals which the klik uses to change states.
the paladin and klik hunt the lands for evil creatures and smite them down. Klik changes (if possible) to a metal that would do the best against the creature they are hunting (such as silver for werewolves)



I used the following for my ideas
Type: metallic
Pro: evil magical creatures blood: I got this by Organic - blood + energy - magical - evil
Con: Magical metal: I got this by metailic + energy, magic

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BuildsLegos
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by BuildsLegos » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:14 pm

So it's "A Boy & His Blob, but with paladin status". Sounds like fun.

(And if you haven't heard of it, find Wayford's Wii version, it has a wonderful hand-drawn art-style and dedicated hug button.)
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Zeus1976
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Zeus1976 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:09 am

BuildsLegos wrote:So it's "A Boy & His Blob, but with paladin status". Sounds like fun.

(And if you haven't heard of it, find Wayford's Wii version, it has a wonderful hand-drawn art-style and dedicated hug button.)
Not owned a Wii, looked at some pictures and I'd say yeah :)

Abit more info on my klik. Due to it's negatives the paladin may never use any enchanted rings/gloves or risk hurting (or worse) his best friend and partner in smiting evil. It also stop him parrying against magical blades for the same reason.

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Re: Kliks Info

Post by SpellsBedly » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:08 am

On a minor detail of the last klik chart: per the opening post rock-like kliks are part of the metallic category, rather than organic.

Moppety
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Moppety » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:31 am

Yeah, I'll move it around if I work on it again. So thanks.

The categories do seem to be somewhat confusing. I'd have divided them differently, but it's not that big of a deal I suppose.

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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Sockmonkey » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:25 am

I wonder what would have happened if oblivious (prior to being locked into oblivion status) had touched a klik.

Moppety
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Re: Kliks Info

Post by Moppety » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:51 am

I remember Thunt mentioning somewhere that it can't copy organic material, or something along those lines. It'd make sense that it wouldn't be able to imitate anything that's alive, because if it comes in contact with anything that is it's most likely an enemy you're trying to slice through.
Maybe it was even explained in the comic itself?

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Re: Kliks Info

Post by BuildsLegos » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:32 pm

The only one to pay attention to what happens in Goblins.

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Re: Kliks Info

Post by fitzorai » Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:53 am

G-guys, what about a Klik that is paradoxically made of oblivion - is that even theoretically possible? Afterall, there is in-fact in existence - or rather, not in existence, but kinda in existence but by definition the opposite of existence, Minmax's sword, Oblivious.

We've already seen oblivion paradoxically be replicated into a blade, perhaps it is possible for oblivion to be paradoxically replicated by a Klik.

What would it's weaknesses even be, what would heal it? My speculations on this comes from looking at Oblivious; Oblivion Klik would heal itself with ignorance and be weakened by someone trying to understand the nature of its existence. I would also think that said Oblivion Klik couldn't possibly be a living entity; it would basically be a Klik statue that does not travel through time.

Oh, and hi, I'm new to the Goblins forum!

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