Shinng! 3/12/18

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speakslittle
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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by speakslittle » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:33 pm

The particle effects/IME on the teleportation suggest that she drank from the teapot to find Minmax.
Unknown whether she returned the teapot to her clan first, or whether she was, perhaps, impacted by the TrueSight and sought MM out ahead of schedule.

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by SpeaksManyLanguages » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:33 pm

Sessine wrote:Edited to add: But her remarks about being puzzled by her IME and maybe understanding more as she advances in levels suggests that she has not reached an extremely high level. She isn't on a level with Kore, for sure. You could be right -- she might have left the Maze early for some reason. Or maybe she's somewhere in the... 7-9 range? What clues has Thunt dropped for us about how IME details become more defined with level? Does anyone remember?
Here you go

The description matches level 5-6, I'ld say.

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by Jochi » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:43 pm

Teiresias wrote:Electricity follows the path of least resistance. If Kore is not sweating and has relatively dry skin, the plate armor will likely have vastly less electrical resistance than his skin. The real question is, how well grounded is the armor? If the stone offers a reasonably conductive path to ground, then the armor may act as a faraday cage and protect Forgath, but if the ground is not very conductive, then I'm not sure what would happen...the lightning could fizzle, or Kore could roast. TBH electricity is fickle and I'm no physicist.
Speaking AS a physicist I have to point out that speculating based on real world physics is pointless. Electricity is an elemental damage effect with a line-shaped area of effect, and being grounded or insulated or sheathed in a Faraday Cage doesn't matter a whit. Resist Elements or Endure Elements might if he had one up for the right element. If she has the Missile Deflection feat her impervious tail could be very useful as she runs if she watches behind her, but that would slow her down. Not as much as Kore unlimbering and shooting his crossbows would slow HIM down, unless he has the feat that lets him shoot while running, I forget the name.
Back in the day there was no cap on the damage fireball and lightning bolt did, and a 17th level wizard (which she could have ground to so she has access to all spell levels) would throw a 17-die lightning bolt. That would have been sweet. I'm still hoping it was a full 10 dice.

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by ForgetsOldName » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:27 pm

SpeaksManyLanguages wrote:
Sessine wrote:Edited to add: But her remarks about being puzzled by her IME and maybe understanding more as she advances in levels suggests that she has not reached an extremely high level. She isn't on a level with Kore, for sure. You could be right -- she might have left the Maze early for some reason. Or maybe she's somewhere in the... 7-9 range? What clues has Thunt dropped for us about how IME details become more defined with level? Does anyone remember?
Here you go

The description matches level 5-6, I'ld say.
I'd say she's in the 8 range. But Kore is 15+
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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by MinesData » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:06 pm

As a Yuan-ti Halfblood Snake-person-thing (7 racial HD and a +5 LA) level 5-6 wizard would be getting up to the limits of getting no further exp from the MoM. Those racial levels and LA cost casters a lot (although will provide her enough HP to not get splatted too easily, they aren't exactly optimal). That would put her at ECL 17-18. It's hard to see her being significantly higher.

One presumes she opened with her "best" spell. (If she gets into serious trouble, then escapes using a much better spell then it would seem weird to open with that)

Frankly, Lightning Bolt is a terrible opening move for a wizard right up against a melee character. He has too many HP to try going toe to toe and whittling him down. It does set up a "He took a lightning bolt to the chest and still kept coming" aspect I guess.

Kore, as a paladin, will have huge resistances so a save or suck spell would likely not have any effect also. (although Tasha's Hideous laughter would have been amusing to see)

Simply running away (120ft/round) and accepting "thunk, thunk, thunk" would get her away as well as dropping Kore in the pit if he tried giving chase. I believe this room is set up so that dropping Kore in the pit is the likely way she will escape him (temporarily)

Expeditious Retreat, Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Blink, Displacement would all be wiser choices (as would taking a move action away from the homicidal dwarf), some better than others but those are all pretty reasonable choices for a wizard soloing a dungeon. Playing Blaster against a melee character within melee range seems like it's going to get her into a hell of a lot of trouble. I don't see Kore killing her here but I suspect she (and minmax) are in for a lot of pain in the next round.



As for Banishment: 1. Kore is not extraplanar. 2. If Kin has access to 7th level spells (very unlikely to have 20+ HD in addition to the LA), she should curbstomp him without any trouble. Maybe you are thinking of another spell?

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by Hjerne » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:20 pm

SpeaksManyLanguages wrote:
Sessine wrote:Edited to add: But her remarks about being puzzled by her IME and maybe understanding more as she advances in levels suggests that she has not reached an extremely high level. She isn't on a level with Kore, for sure. You could be right -- she might have left the Maze early for some reason. Or maybe she's somewhere in the... 7-9 range? What clues has Thunt dropped for us about how IME details become more defined with level? Does anyone remember?
Here you go

The description matches level 5-6, I'ld say.
But also going by those descriptions I would say Kore's IME is only 8-10. There is no glow or audible fx. It just looks like heads on chains that flail around. In fact it sounds almost exactly like level 8 Rudy but with the addition of chains.

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by MinesData » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:27 pm

Hjerne wrote:
But also going by those descriptions I would say Kore's IME is only 8-10. There is no glow or audible fx. It just looks like heads on chains that flail around. In fact it sounds almost exactly like level 8 Rudy but with the addition of chains.
We've seen Kore cast Holy Sword (level 4 paladin spell), that places him at 14+ (if he has 18+ WIS, otherwise 15+).

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by GathersIngredients » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:19 am

MinesData wrote:As a Yuan-ti Halfblood Snake-person-thing (7 racial HD and a +5 LA) level 5-6 wizard would be getting up to the limits of getting no further exp from the MoM. Those racial levels and LA cost casters a lot (although will provide her enough HP to not get splatted too easily, they aren't exactly optimal). That would put her at ECL 17-18. It's hard to see her being significantly higher.

One presumes she opened with her "best" spell. (If she gets into serious trouble, then escapes using a much better spell then it would seem weird to open with that)

Frankly, Lightning Bolt is a terrible opening move for a wizard right up against a melee character. He has too many HP to try going toe to toe and whittling him down. It does set up a "He took a lightning bolt to the chest and still kept coming" aspect I guess.

Kore, as a paladin, will have huge resistances so a save or suck spell would likely not have any effect also. (although Tasha's Hideous laughter would have been amusing to see)

Simply running away (120ft/round) and accepting "thunk, thunk, thunk" would get her away as well as dropping Kore in the pit if he tried giving chase. I believe this room is set up so that dropping Kore in the pit is the likely way she will escape him (temporarily)

Expeditious Retreat, Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Blink, Displacement would all be wiser choices (as would taking a move action away from the homicidal dwarf), some better than others but those are all pretty reasonable choices for a wizard soloing a dungeon. Playing Blaster against a melee character within melee range seems like it's going to get her into a hell of a lot of trouble. I don't see Kore killing her here but I suspect she (and minmax) are in for a lot of pain in the next round.



As for Banishment: 1. Kore is not extraplanar. 2. If Kin has access to 7th level spells (very unlikely to have 20+ HD in addition to the LA), she should curbstomp him without any trouble. Maybe you are thinking of another spell?
We have seen just before that while Kin is very smart, she doesn't necessarily come up with the "best" solution in any given situation that require quick thinking. That's MinMax' speciality, to come up with the most efficient solutions in a tough spot (e.g. removing the finger from the wand of Forgarth of the Scorpikin group, because that wouldn't allow him to use all the other bonuses from the rings on it any more.)
I'm talking about her not coming up with the idea of simply moving along the room, while touching one of the symbols at any time to make the floor safe, nor turning back to where she knew there was a door when she found out about her IME turning all the shapes green. So it has been established when in a dangerous situation, Kin may "panic" and/or go for a less than optimum course of action (also, remember her extreme wordiness in the tower with Chief, where he was trying to figure out the gate opening mechanism designed for at least two people; while not exactly hindering, her verboseness didn't help in that situation).
Possibly that is to suggest a difference in experience of the players, MinMax' player is exactly that, someone who knows most rules by heart and (mis)used them to minmax his character, whereas Kin's player could be relatively new to D&D and still find out about stuff as she goes along, therefore forced to "wing" it more often than not, because she doesn't remember about feats and spells and whatnot.


Therefore I do hope the lightning bolt to Kore's face was some variant of that and she does have "better" spells than that and/or thinks of using them soon (she might even have the fly spell, but didn't cast it because changing the colour of the one shape was enough to ensure safe passage, no need to "waste" a spell on the room. At least that's what she thought at that point in time.). Also, I think the situation (lightning bolt against a melee enemy) may be slightly different than with a regular wizard, because they tend to be rather squishy, whereas Kin has her very dense tail to hide behind/fight with. Since she had it even before she started the runs in the MoM with the all Kin group (all of which are prone to give advice and figure out things, if given enough time to think about it), we can assume she has learned by now pretty well how to use the tail to the best of her advantage.
but I suspect she (and minmax) are in for a lot of pain in the next round.
OMG... I didn't even think of that before, but yes. If they are still close enough to each other, Minmax would feel any pain/damage that Kin takes. And that could prompt him to go back and look for her! Maybe we will see a "reunion" of them, after all! :cheer:
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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by Arrow » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:03 am

I'm no physicist as well but I agree in real life plate armor would be excellent protection from lightning.

However the DND world is not very physical accurate (understatement of the year) and the fact that the wizard can direct the lightning towards a target is itself wrong.

In real life the electricity would turn around and go through the wizard to the ground (ie. electrify the wizard himself/herself) or in case the wizard is temporarily highly insulating the electricity would go through the air down to Earth.

So, if we can accept the wizards can not only generate huge electric potential but also direct the current to a certain direction, we may as well accept that the electric current can ignore a Faraday cage.

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by spiderwrangler » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:59 am

Had the unpleasant thought that if she does get through all this, and does drop Kore down the pit... he could fall and land very close to MM and GAP...
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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by Jochi » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:27 am

spiderwrangler wrote:Had the unpleasant thought that if she does get through all this, and does drop Kore down the pit... he could fall and land very close to MM and GAP...
Could, but they appear to be headed level when we saw them last, and she descended a staircase of at least 3-4 floors. She is probably far below them now, and Kore would end up even lower. But we'll see.

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by spiderwrangler » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:31 am

True... I'm not sure how much time has passed since she's arrived, but you're right it's not likely.
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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by Morgaln » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:44 am

I don't think Kore's armor could work as a Faraday's cage. From what I understand (and school was more than 20 years ago, so I might misremember), Faraday's cage only works if you're completely enclosed by it. Kore's helmet is not connected to the rest of the armor, so the cage ends at his neck. And since his head is sticking out of the armor, that part of his body isn't protected and thus susceptible to lightning. I'm also not sure if Faraday's cage works at all if you are touching the inside when it is struck.
People who know more about physics than me may correct me, since I'm certainly not an expert on this.

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by ForgetsOldName » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:57 am

A Faraday is often just that--a cage. But if there is a large window in the cage, there would be an electric field inside the cage that would be shaped like a piece of pie radiating out from the window.

I thought she was targeting his eyes, but looking at the image again that isn't obvious.
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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by Dann » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:01 am

Kin T_T

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by Maelphaxerazz » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:22 am

Lightning Bolt travels in a horizontal line, which isn't how lightning would normally behave, so we can safely assume that normal physical means of redirecting electricity would not work against it. Kore took that damage. It just won't help much because Kore has a ton of HP.

Since Kin leveled up by grinding the Maze of Many, her questionable choice of spell might be just that she did not find the best spells in the loot of the Maze. No Magic Marts to shop at. If she found a Lightning Bolt scroll in loot, and only has two other 3rd level spells known (the ones she gained when she reached 5th level of Wizard), then it would actually be a smart choice to prepare at least one Lightning Bolt. For example, say Kin chose Dispel Magic and Mass Curse of Impending Blades as her 3rd level spells. Those are decent picks, especially if she is working as part of a larger party rather than alone (she expected to meet up with Minmax & Forgath). Neither of those spells would do her any good in this particular instance, even though they are good spells overall. You cannot prepare for everything.

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by BuildsLegos » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:37 pm

ForgetsOldName wrote:A Faraday is often just that--a cage. But if there is a large window in the cage, there would be an electric field inside the cage that would be shaped like a piece of pie radiating out from the window.

I thought she was targeting his eyes, but looking at the image again that isn't obvious.
This is why I say the helmet is a design flaw in this moment; so long as pedants like me focus on realistic physics, however much of that lightning reached his head will surely do more damage. Keep in mind that the helmet is disconnected, so his whole neck is subtly unarmored.
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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by Bapuvitttssf » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:28 pm

BuildsLegos wrote:Keep in mind that the helmet is disconnected, so his whole neck is subtly unarmored.
We can see his helmet is in contact with his metallic door right now (well, that's after he got hit, but...).
I'm agreeing with the "non-real-world physics of electricity", so not sure if that has any consequence at all anyway.

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by BuildsLegos » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:35 pm

Bapuvitttssf wrote:
BuildsLegos wrote:Keep in mind that the helmet is disconnected, so his whole neck is subtly unarmored.
We can see his helmet is in contact with his metallic door right now (well, that's after he got hit, but...).
I'm agreeing with the "non-real-world physics of electricity", so not sure if that has any consequence at all anyway.
Hence it works as a faraday cage for the volts coming from the shield, but not what's traveling up his chest. But then, I forget to factor (what remains of) the beard which I have no idea how that would affect the flow. All the same, dice might indeed rule over reality here and the sprinkling of home-brew could make it go either way.
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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by redfeather » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:33 pm

All this discussion of real-world physics in a D&D game... :roll:
GathersIngredients wrote:(she might even have the fly spell, but didn't cast it because changing the colour of the one shape was enough to ensure safe passage, no need to "waste" a spell on the room. At least that's what she thought at that point in time.)
It's fairly clear, from the internal dialogue as she raced to escape the color-changing pit trap, that she wasn't thinking in any such metagamey terms.

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by speakslittle » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:34 pm

Hmmm...options. We've seen him cast Holy Sword and Remove Paralysis, and I think that's it.

Rope Trick solves everything here, but a Dispel would have a better than even chance of breaking it. (Min DC 16, vs Min Dispel 1d20+7). And it's not like there's a ton of competition for 3rd level paladin spellslots. Cure Moderate, Dispel, or Resist Energy/Remove Paralysis from Level 2.

Full Plate weighs 50lbs, and a Tower Shield is slightly less. So both could be valid targets for Shatter. Saying 'could be' because it's entirely possible Kore's stuff weighs more than 10xKin's CL. Kin even knows how powerful it is because Psimax did something similar all the time. Break a weapon or armor, destroy all potions. Extremely useful, and there's no real counter beyond having more stuff. He might find new weapons or armor, but even so, that's got to be better than letting him keep his fullplate, or his special shield.

Glitterdust and Pyrotechnics are similarly strong, but have the added counter of Remove Blindness.
A second Hold Person could work. It's 50/50 on whether his other second level spell is Remove Paralysis or Resist Energy.

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by MinesData » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:20 am

speakslittle wrote:Hmmm...options. We've seen him cast Holy Sword and Remove Paralysis, and I think that's it.

Rope Trick solves everything here, but a Dispel would have a better than even chance of breaking it. (Min DC 16, vs Min Dispel 1d20+7). And it's not like there's a ton of competition for 3rd level paladin spellslots. Cure Moderate, Dispel, or Resist Energy/Remove Paralysis from Level 2.

Full Plate weighs 50lbs, and a Tower Shield is slightly less. So both could be valid targets for Shatter. Saying 'could be' because it's entirely possible Kore's stuff weighs more than 10xKin's CL. Kin even knows how powerful it is because Psimax did something similar all the time. Break a weapon or armor, destroy all potions. Extremely useful, and there's no real counter beyond having more stuff. He might find new weapons or armor, but even so, that's got to be better than letting him keep his fullplate, or his special shield.

Glitterdust and Pyrotechnics are similarly strong, but have the added counter of Remove Blindness.
A second Hold Person could work. It's 50/50 on whether his other second level spell is Remove Paralysis or Resist Energy.
I think going up against a high level paladin, anything which offers a save (Including Shatter which offers a will save, Kore's wisdom is likely to be through the roof due to stacking age bonuses) is likely to be ineffective. We've see him cast LOH so we know he has a charisma bonus. Ugly can be independent of charisma despite what Minmax thinks.

That's why I think a self buff to get out of there/mitigate damage as you run away from the homicidal dwarf. She has a good HP pool (around 12-13 HD worth with a good racial Con bonus) so that is one thing which is in her favour, (a 50% miss chance is equivalent to doubling her HP). It also has the benefit of dropping the dwarf in the hole after he takes a few rounds with his crossbows then giving chase. Even if Kore runs (which would be unprecedented) he won't get across the room in time once Kin leaves the room.

Ok he could pull a pair of rocket skates out of his armour which gives him 60' movement and a +20 bonus to run checks (while remaining able to full attack with his crossbows just for extra cheese).

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by Generic » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:56 am

ForgetsKeys wrote:I hadn't realized that the Psionic-based body parts were THAT strong. But, looking back at http://goblinscomic.com/comic/09172014, I now see that Kore first broke his axe on Forgath's beard. The Maze of Many was very good to Kin and Forgath.
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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by Scoshan » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:11 am

Love that description. :lol:

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Re: Shinng! 3/12/18

Post by qTzal » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:27 pm

Bapuvitttssf wrote:
GathersIngredients wrote:Part of me wonders if Kin will just hide her tail again and try to say "Oh, I'm sorry that I hit you with the lightning bolt, I was aiming for the monster... Can we join up now?" o:)
I guess you said that as a joke, but I think panels 6 & 7 show Kore understanding this green "tentacle" is made of the same material as Forgath's beard, hence Kin knows that evil dwarf (and the evil human known as Minmax too).
This is an important thing to note: from the point where Kore asked "Did you know this dwarf?" the gig was up for Kin. Remember that the wisdom bonus stacks with age and that Kore is very old (how old exactly?); he had to have perceived her first lie right then.

I suppose that the real question is how screwed up in the head does he has to be to either not perceive her lies with his probably massive wisdom bonus or that he knows that she is lying and still fell for "LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU! MONSTER!"

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