Altiverse Goblins [blue screen of death]

[SGTdude]

This isn't a true recruitment thread, but more like a pre-recruitment thread. At least for now.

I have an idea, but I am not sure if it will work here. The reason is that it is not a "Goblins" idea. By that, I mean it will not follow a home-brew D&D, turn based, kind of twinky hack-and-slash format. I am not saying that any of that is bad mind you, it just has a very particular setting and feel to it, and what I would be going for is more....well I don't want to spoil it so lets just say "different".

If I decide to go through with this, I would need the support of a few dedicated players (dont worry, there are no openings at the moment and therefore no threat of commitment) who are capable of doing more with a character than simply stating the actions they are able to take. I can make a world for your characters to live in, but only you can make your character live.

I would also say that this project, because of its difference from a goblins style game, would be nearly devoid of the experience hunting/gear grinding elements that occur in those types of games. The "currency" as it were in this game would be more story and less stats.

I would definitely be interested in having a co-director for this (especially if said person can make graphical representations of things, although not a requirement) but it is not a prerequisite to starting.


So...what now?

Well, now I continue to bring my whole idea into a workable form and determine exactly how we would do this and what kind of group size would be just right. You can feel free to express interest and ask questions. I will provide a gentle warning that once I am ready to start, there will be a sort of application process, but it should not prove difficult for the kinds of people I imagine would be into this kind of thing.


Thanks and check back soon for more.

[SGTdude]

Just dropping some initial thoughts here which relate to mechanics, since that is really secondary to the whole thing.

This will be in a setting that can generally be considered "fantasy" but I cant really get into specifics other than to say not LoTR, not Goblins, not your typical D&D game. For one, magic will be non-existent initially (which cuts out spells, magic items, and the like). I plan on using a flexible turn system for combat but that is only to keep things organized in regards to the order in which things happen. I would like to keep some kind of experience/trait/leveling system in place but only if can serve the greater story instead of getting in the way (i.e. lets hurry up and get to the next boss so we can level and I can get X).

The larger element, in terms of progression, will be character growth. But this is not intended to be a short story so there should be room for all kinds of challenges, successes, and failures along the way of developing the characters. I dont feel like this means there has to be extensive backstories, but the concept of who a character is, at least initially, should be firmly rooted in each players mind because I will very much be using the color of each character to add to the overall picture of the story I have in mind.

Well, thats enough for now.

[Godbot]

Are we to assume that we can only make human characters?

[Arch Lich Burns]

I am in, seems interesting. And winter break is coming up soon so, that's a plus.

[SGTdude]

I dont know if they will be human yet, but they will be "human".

What I mean is that whatever race the game starts with will be the only race that is known (kind of like how Bilbo had never really met a dwarf or a human or an elf before). I have also not decided how other races will be dealt with in this game as I am still processing the implications of the central underlying plot (which wont make sense, I know). I have thought about this idea in various forms for a few years, so the challenge for me is pulling together the pieces and reworking them to fit together.

Im hoping to have a breakthrough in the next day or so, but this will in no ways be the pre-scripted story that is Goblins. The central plot will be much more flexible with lots of room for twists and turns, even those that are essentially player generated.

[Godbot]

Hrm, all right. It might be a little tricky to play a group of varied characters in a setting where there's no magic and very limited technology, but Game of Thrones pulled it off. I'm tentatively in, too.

[SGTdude]

So here is one challenge that has occurred to me in doing this, and it happens to be one for the players:

Because things that happen in the fantasy realm are pretty much overdone, the little things lose their allure. I think thats the reason that the fantasy rp games that tend to draw a lot of interest are the ones where they allow for any character, even those that are half-dragon vampire exiled sons of demon gods who just really need a hug. So the challenge would be for the players to appreciate the situation in which they find themselves regardless of how it fits or compares with other situations they have read about, heard about, or experienced before.

I have numerous challenges ahead of me, but honestly the more creativity that others pour into this the more my gears go. While I dont have any specifics on how the leveling system would work, the game would, in essence, begin early in the period before most D&D characters hit level 1. I would want to do this for a couple reasons, one of which is to help players establish the foundation of their identity before "choosing a class", that way they aren't defined merely by titles such as: fighter, mage, etc.

I still have more work to do though.

[SGTdude]

Well I havent seen GoT so I cant really comment/compare. But compare forum rp's to an MMO: a player jumps in and goes "ok, but what do we do? Oh there is this dungeon run and that gear and these levels to beat? Ok."

I dont like that. A forum RP should not be a theme park event.

What do you do? You are creatively deep and rich character. You be, thats what you do. Im not suggesting a forum rp where characters are locked in a room with no objects inside and keep themselves inside (although, that does relate to this one idea I have...), but the central core of the thing should be let the characters paint the master-work of themselves on the canvas of the game.

Hope that helps to present to feel of what I expect this to be.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Heh, don't worry too much about that. I am certain we will create those situations. Or situations that make you groan for lols. just cause

Also my characters tend not to have a set personality until I get a good feel of what that character's personality is, but it's worked out before. Though staying away from lawful character this time. Having one playing is slightly too much for me anyways and I want to do crazy shenanigans I never could in threads.

[SGTdude]

Well on the subject of Shennanigans...

This is not Goblins. If a big red demon appears by chance and you taunt him, he will not respond verbally, and you will not get a second chance. You will be instantly transported to a realm of pain and awkwardness where you will forever cry "can i please die now".

I am not out to get anyone, but the balance to having deep and rich story elements is also having risk in which you can do one stupid thing and be instantly killed or worse, negatively affected for the life of your character.

Again, I am not trying to kill characters, but I am not trying to save them either. The story tells itself whether the players make it to the end or not. Its another difference of perspective: the game, if done right, won't wait for our heroes to show up to save the day. The world will keep turning and what will happen will happen. But there will be enough potential for things to go very well for the players. Or very badly. Its the necessary element of a great story.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Well obviously not doing stupid stuff like that.

[SGTdude]

Just had to clear up that fact, especially since this is still in the planning stages essentially.

But in order to move forward I just need to figure out how

► Show Spoiler

this thing figured it out

works with

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this other part working on this

and what that means in relation to

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those people on the verge of solving this one

which affects the story because

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of that reason

.

And then all the while

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that is going on. And would you believe this is the easy part?

But im working on piecing it all together

EDIT: and I bet you thought I was just making stuff up.
Double Edit: slowly making progress

[gamecreator]

I'm not the kind of player you want, but I'm quite interested to see where this will go. In my experience games with flexible plot didn't do well.
I'll see how it goes during recruitment, but I feel like I can make a newbie play without copypasting myself into the game.

So the challenge would be for the players to appreciate the situation in which they find themselves regardless of how it fits or compares with other situations they have read about, heard about, or experienced before.

Isn't this the very essence of roleplaying?

[SGTdude]

Well it wouldnt be open in the sense of go anywhere, do anything, because I would have a central plot driving things and would be guiding them along that plot. There will be all kinds of room for other things that are not simply "side quests" and would actually determine how the players fit in with central plot. It would work nice to script out this story ahead of time and then just run it, but: that would take alot of time to just set up before playing even begins, and it doesn't really offer the players any choice other than "choose to follow the plot". But is a game that is not completely wide open any different from a scripted game because is limited choice making different from a game on rails? I think so because I plan to allow the players to affect/not affect the final outcome (and many outcomes along the way, based on what they do (to include them even choosing to involve themselves in certain elements I have in mind).

As for the nature of roleplaying, I will say this:
If a player sees something that they instantly recognize because of their experience and knowledge, it is difficult to then write as if they have never seen it before. This situation will come up at least once in this game which is why I mention it.

One place I dont mind admitting that I am struggling is with leveling. For one, I haven't done anything since 2nd Ed so any rules and elements after that are completely foreign to me. 2ndly, while I recognize the rewarding value of striving for and attaining something like a new level/ability/stat bonus etc. So I want to include this to help keep the game rewarding for all players, but dont want it included to the point that it becomes the focus. How to do that exactly is something that escapes me at the moment.

I am also working on another element of things today.

[gamecreator]

Throw leveling out of the window in favour of more continuous XP system. Also you don't need to open game system to players, Nerre did good demonstration of that in Minelings.
Also I don't understand why everyone worships DnD as if it's some sort of canon or ideal.

[SGTdude]

Its just an established game system that everyone knows, so it makes for a good foundation for things. And I have been considering a more continuous progress system as opposed to static levels.


But on the other hand, there are plot elements I may not be able to piece together at this time. I dont want to table this idea, but certain things have to be worked out before it can be started. I am trying to work on those things now.

PS - if this seems to criticize any games/game types, it does not. There are other games that don't follow the structure I am going for and I enjoy those games. Its just not what I am personally reaching for.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Skill based systems, rather than level based seems to suit your needs better. Also you don't have to know the full plot but at least have an idea of where you are going. No gm I know builds the entire plot first. So if it is not that close to the beginning then you don't have to pressure yourself into making a decision quite yet.

[SGTdude]

Thanks Burns.

I am very close to finishing the beginning. I am just not sure where it goes from there. Hmm...

Imagine it like this:

Its like a monopoly board and I have the first "Go" square mostly ready. Different from the game, this progresses in a not-specifically linear fashion. I have certain "plot hubs" that I have prepared to include, but its the connection between hubs and ultimately "Go" and other sections of the game that is giving me pause. But I am still working on it.

The leveling system (even if its just skills) is another problem that, ultimately, I would probably have to have some administrative support with. I think I would go with the (seemingly) standard HP/ATT/DEF stats that are used in other games for combat just to keep the actual mechanics of it as simple as possible but I have to think about that still.

There is a possibility that I may allow players to play 2 characters each in this game, however if I do that the 2nd set would not come in until later. Its one plot point, among several, that I am working out at the moment because I have to consider how things affect other things.


Ultimately the mechanics dont bother me, because the power of a literary work literally makes anything possible. You just have to explain it well enough. But still I am not trying to write a book....its more like an interactive story. I am going to think about things some more and possibly make some kind of an update today.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Heh. We very much understand seperate plot hooks.

[Nerre]

I am interested too.
If you go for stat based, you might add a randomizer. Many games have rules like dam done = your atk - enemy def. That is kind of boring since it is always the same. And if one char has the better gear, he is better. Better go for skills and just hit a dice you seem fit for the skill. We don't even have to know which one it is. The less math you give to players, the more they might focus on roleplay since they got not much of the game mechanics to think about.
In Threads of reality and Curse of the gold the game is more skill and roleplay than attributes based, even if attributes exist. I think Mortimer does not use a randomizer on the attributes, while I do. Both games focus on the roleplaying and story rather than pure fighting. But you might be able to do it without any attributes, but it would be hard to balance it. Either you would have to do math behind the game in secret, or just roleplay it.

[SGTdude]

Well, like I said, the mechanics part would come second (and I would likely lean on somebody to at least help me figure it out in the beginning). There are story elements I haven't quite....gotten to play well together yet. I am still thinking about this but it has definitely moved from "i got this idea", to "let me see how this is going to work".

[BadgeAddict]

I find this intriguing, but I'm not ready to actually put my foot into the boat yet as there are still so many uncertainties. However, i do have a question. By character development, do you mean to create something similar to what nikohl and I created with Cavemen, where character development is done purely by the character. Basically meaning:

More typing, writing, imaginative thought, etc = More win.

In which case I would be in, because I enjoy creative writing. However, if it falls inline with any other d20 type game in which you must keep track of a character sheet then i am hesitant to proceed. Can you, without giving away too much detail, specify which type it would be based on what I've described?

Granted, I play in a RL pathfinder and now Star Wars Saga Edition game and I have enjoyed them both and yes I have created a character sheet. But in a RL setting, its less about stats and more about the story, which i enjoy (the Story) part the most. However, as with any online game, the details that the players must keep track of, the worst, in my opinion.

Also, if you are looking for graphics, I would like to offer my ability to create semi-under Par crude windows paint graphics. All i need is a good description to go off of.

[Godbot]

If you go for stat based, you might add a randomizer. Many games have rules like dam done = your atk - enemy def. That is kind of boring since it is always the same. And if one char has the better gear, he is better. Better go for skills and just hit a dice you seem fit for the skill. We don't even have to know which one it is. The less math you give to players, the more they might focus on roleplay since they got not much of the game mechanics to think about.

This is solid advice. No one should ever be mechanically completely unable to damage someone else in combat - or at the very least, it should be an extremely rare situation. There should always be a chance of success and a risk of failure. That's why a lot of games have critical hits and the like.

That said, "if you go for stat based" raised a massive red flag in my head. Even if you're emphasizing roleplaying, you definitely want to have stats. Maybe even especially if you're emphasizing roleplaying. It's more interesting if your character is good at some things and bad at others. It influences how they handle situations. I've seen forum games where you just roll a d6 or a d20 to determine success. In situations like that, it doesn't even matter what you're trying to do; there's always a flat chance that it'll work, so you can just keep doing the same thing over and over. There's no element of strategy, and no consideration of your character.

And yes, I'm aware that I just said "there should always be a chance of success, but it's bad if there's always a chance of success." The difference is that the first part refers to avoiding situations where everyone adds up their challenge ratings and the losers go home, and the second part refers to trying to fly over and over until it spontaneously works. Games need both an element of randomness and individual strengths and weaknesses.

Oh, and FATE has an interesting take on game mechanics versus storytelling: you get mechanical bonuses for things your character would logically be good at, and you only roll dice when it would be interesting whether you succeed or fail. You do have skills, but they're secondary to a list of your character's defining characteristics.

[BadgeAddict]

well, the other option there Gbot, is to have skills or better yet a class. And under that class are said skills that you can attempt and possibly succeed at, but then saying that everything which is cross class is next to impossible unless you roll a natural 20. The other thing though that is needed is a negative side. For every diceroll there is a good or bad outcome. lets say you own a gun, and you are a gunslinger. Fixing your gun is easier for you, but you still need to roll to repair it. If you roll a natural 1 it is broken, where a natural 20 may be fixing it and then some.

Thus, the breakdown is like so:
A class skill is possible, but there is a chance to fail. (Succeeding has a positive outcome, failing has a negative outcome)
A cross-class skill is very difficult, but there is a chance to succeed.(Succeeding has a positive outcome, failing has a negative outcome)

The dice rolling itself could be secretly done by the GM. A success means well, a success, whereas a fail could mean horrible horrible things. This makes it so that there isn't someone continually trying to succeed a roll, if the result of failure has the possibility of a bad outcome.

[SGTdude]

That last bit is why I am thinking about just mostly going with stats for combat. I mean if you learn a skill like leatherworking before you even hit level one, there shouldnt really be much of a chance for you to critically fail when making leather armor to the point that the whole thing is a lost cause and not even useful for scraps. That values successful die rolls over roleplaying to me, and I am trying to do the reverse.

But I also dont want to just do what has been done in other "story" style rp's where there is no rolling or anything for combat and it is completely left up for the writers to determine their own hits and whatnot against npc's. Cuz that pretty much always ends in success for the players. And there should be some risk involved.

But like I said, mechanics is not the first thing I am thinking about right now. I am getting close to putting things together but I dont want to just start because there is an interest; I want to have at least a minimally good grasp on what is going to happen. So I will keep working on it and let you all know where I am with this. Given what is involved, its turning out to be more challenging than I originally thought piecing this all together.

PS - Keep the mechanics discussions rolling because it is actually helping me to sort through how I want to handle the more complicated plot elements.