A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

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thinkslogically
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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by thinkslogically » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:44 am

Argh! I couldn't stay away!

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by Rogbull » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:54 pm

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Prometheus
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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by Prometheus » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:50 pm

This series started out amazingly, it has deep characters, rich history, a Tolkien setting. It starts out as one of the greatest works of fiction of all time. And then something happened: the true tragedy of the series isn't in the words, it's between the lines. Perhaps i'm the only one who feels uncomfortable at the vague sexism written into Sansa, into Caitlyn, into Cersei. Perhaps i'm the only one who grows increasingly annoyed by Jon Snow's Mary Sue development and progression. But i can't be the only who who feels like Martin destroys beloved characters merely to keep readers coming back. With dance of dragons especially it feels like he has killed off key characters and doesn't know how to get his story back on track. Or perhaps he's just a prolific writer who doesn't realize when something is utterly uninteresting to read. Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons should have been a single book, they would have been far, far more interesting, they would have contained less mind-numbingly boring exposition.

All of that said, i'm undoubtedly going to read the next book and pray that he fixes Tyrion, that Dany does something with her life, that Jon and Arya develop the way i want.

Who agrees with me? Who disagrees? Why?

And as always, thanks for being awesome. (i know you're awesome, because you clearly like goblins as much as i do)

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by TinSoldier » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:17 pm

Prometheus wrote:This series started out amazingly, it has deep characters, rich history, a Tolkien setting. It starts out as one of the greatest works of fiction of all time.
I agree. In some ways I think that the world of Westeros is even richer than Middle Earth. You get a real feeling that the world existed before you started reading and that it will continue on afterwards. While Tolkien has a rich mythology woven into his world, the myths, legends, and religions feel much more a part of Westeros than apart from it. If that makes any sense.
Prometheus wrote:And then something happened: the true tragedy of the series isn't in the words, it's between the lines. Perhaps i'm the only one who feels uncomfortable at the vague sexism written into Sansa, into Caitlyn, into Cersei. Perhaps i'm the only one who grows increasingly annoyed by Jon Snow's Mary Sue development and progression. But i can't be the only who who feels like Martin destroys beloved characters merely to keep readers coming back.
I don't know about the sexism, it's kinda part and parcel to the "gritty, pseudo-Medieval setting". You can especially see that in how Brienne gets treated.

I'm not sure what you mean with regards to Catelyn though?

Prometheus wrote:With dance of dragons especially it feels like he has killed off key characters and doesn't know how to get his story back on track. Or perhaps he's just a prolific writer who doesn't realize when something is utterly uninteresting to read. Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons should have been a single book, they would have been far, far more interesting, they would have contained less mind-numbingly boring exposition.
I agree especially with the bit that I emphasized up above. I haven't read "A Dance With Dragons" yet, but I remember being quite unhappy with "A Feast For Crows" and its seemingly aimless meandering. It's like he painted his plotlines into the corner and can't figure out how to continue on to some kind of resolution of some of them.

Originally Feast and Dance were supposed to be one book, but he just couldn't stop writing and it got to be too long. Then after he split it up he had to go back and change a lot of stuff (and probably add even more).

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by WastesTime » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:18 am

I might be a little slow, but have you ever noticed how Stark and Lannister are similar names to York and Lancaster? Furthermore, the Lancastrians were "the baddies" in a way, they deposed Richard II, and established their House, while the House of York's claim was stronger and more justified. Margaret of Anjou (Lancasters) is described as having an "ill-judging enmity toward York" which brought about her downfall. Of course, there are a lot (I mean A LOT) of differences but still... could Martin somehow (intentionally or not) stylize the Houses on the Wars of The Roses period? What do you think?
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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by lingrem » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:45 am

WastesTime wrote:I might be a little slow, but have you ever noticed how Stark and Lannister are similar names to York and Lancaster? Furthermore, the Lancastrians were "the baddies" in a way, they deposed Richard II, and established their House, while the House of York's claim was stronger and more justified. Margaret of Anjou (Lancasters) is described as having an "ill-judging enmity toward York" which brought about her downfall. Of course, there are a lot (I mean A LOT) of differences but still... could Martin somehow (intentionally or not) stylize the Houses on the Wars of The Roses period? What do you think?
Oh yaeh I think it's influenced by it. But then again... everything's influenced by something or another :)
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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by TinSoldier » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:38 am

Martin has stated that he was directly inspired by the Wars of the Roses, so it's not exactly a coincidence.

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by John » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:25 pm

TinSoldier wrote:Martin has stated that he was directly inspired by the Wars of the Roses, so it's not exactly a coincidence.
Your avatar scares me for some reason :paranoia:
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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by TinSoldier » Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:12 pm

John wrote:
TinSoldier wrote:Martin has stated that he was directly inspired by the Wars of the Roses, so it's not exactly a coincidence.
Your avatar scares me for some reason :paranoia:
As well it should.

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thinkslogically
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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by thinkslogically » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:22 am

Prometheus wrote:And then something happened: the true tragedy of the series isn't in the words, it's between the lines. Perhaps i'm the only one who feels uncomfortable at the vague sexism written into Sansa, into Caitlyn, into Cersei. Perhaps i'm the only one who grows increasingly annoyed by Jon Snow's Mary Sue development and progression. But i can't be the only who who feels like Martin destroys beloved characters merely to keep readers coming back.
The 'vague' sexism? I'm not sure what you mean with regards to those three characters? The sexism in the books is obvious enough that it beats you around the head constantly (is there an unnamed woman in a scene? Better believe that she's either a whore, being shagged, or has children), but the protagonist women are the most interesting I think and the three you mention are three of my favourites as strong females in the book. Arya and Brienne are 'strong' in their own way, but they are strong by denying their sex (and emulating men). Sansa, Caitlyn and Cersei by contrast have to be feminine and yet still find a way to survive in spite of that.

Some thoughts (directed at the notion of sexism in general and in the books):

Sansa believed she was a fairytale princess whose sole life aim was to become a wife and mother to a shining white knight or prince. She has had her expectations repeatedly destroyed and is only now learning how to stand on her own feet. When Sansa's story is finished I expect her to be stronger than any of them. Broken-hearted maybe, but strong.

Caitlyn is a mother who for the most part wants to go home and be with her children. Is that sexist? Or the legitimate desires of an aging woman who already lived through one war and almost lost everything? Why shouldn't she desire the peace of a quiet family life? And for that matter, why should family and motherhood be ever be 'weak' choices?

Cersei is an absolute bitch, but does the wrong things for the right reasons (her children). She often complains that she should have been born a man, and I think a lot of her story comes from the fact that she has always been sidelined in favour of her brothers. Even Tyrion got more respect than she did from their father (when he was named as Hand for example). She is neither as cool-minded as Tyrion nor physically strong like Jaime, so who does she get to be? In a court full of men how CAN she have a place beyond being the mother of the king?

-----------------------

I will give you Jon Snow though - his progression is somewhat unlikely, though again you need to bear in mind that amongst all of the other Night's Watch who are rapists, murderers, thieves, bandits and the rest, he is the only one who appears to have gone their willingly, as the (bastard) son of a lord, with all the arms- and book-learning that would have gone with it. So yes, he's young and unlikely, but he is at least competent. His faults I think are mostly his youth.

Regarding the length, I can see what you mean there as well. The books are long and there's not a lot going on for long periods, but I really love Martin's style of writing and actually really enjoy just immersing myself in his work, even if it's just a description of a street market or something :)

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by Arydra » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:26 pm

thinkslogically wrote:Argh! I couldn't stay away!

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This is how I see it:
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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by someone » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:21 pm

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by TinSoldier » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:37 pm

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by Arydra » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:45 pm

That is interesting, never heard that one before.
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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by lingrem » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:38 pm

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by John » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:36 am

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by Wolfie » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:55 am

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by lingrem » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:59 am

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Felicia Faustus in Shipwrecked!

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by WastesTime » Mon May 27, 2013 11:11 am

lingrem wrote:
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"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know"

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by John » Fri May 31, 2013 7:22 am

I need to reread the books so I can start doing some smart spoiler posts :P
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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by lingrem » Fri May 31, 2013 8:31 am

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by WastesTime » Fri May 31, 2013 8:34 am

lingrem wrote:
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"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know"

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by John » Fri May 31, 2013 8:36 am

WastesTime wrote:
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If Batman started listening to a disciple of Dormammu....
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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by WastesTime » Fri May 31, 2013 8:52 am

John wrote:
WastesTime wrote:
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If Batman started listening to a disciple of Dormammu....
He still has his Alfred in the form of
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"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know"

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Re: A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones

Post by John » Fri May 31, 2013 10:46 am

John is more a Batman. He has his Alfred in either Delourious Ed (spelling?) or Sam Tarly. And Ghost is like his Robin.... or batmobile :P

That would make Victarion Greyjoy Aquaman
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