Dungeon design and discussion

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LAYF
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by LAYF » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:26 am

Borys wrote:-SNIP-

Also I'm sure that in castle of Malbork (biggest castle in Poland) there were some toilets...
Yea.. I know, there were some.. that was why I wrote uncommon... most places where they were, they were just holes in a bench over a street or over the wall.......
-Best regards LAYF

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Borys
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by Borys » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:38 am

Yeah, that's as much as I want to put there to.
Also I've just made a pretty complex map of this location. Wasn't that hard.
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by ThroughTheWell » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:42 am

A lot depends on how big the castle is. If it is just a border fort, it might be merely a single tower. Smaller chieftans might have more of a keep with a greathall. Kings and emporers, well they get all of the trimmings of a fully developed and expensive castle.
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by BeanDip » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:59 am

So, perhaps an odd question, how can I keep a lid on ambition and expansion? How to keep it simple, if you will.

Like, I had a simple little dungeon designed and then I added to it a little bit, then added more, then more, and a little more. Some of the additions are just flavour or history, some end up being neat rooms or little sidequests or additional options, sometimes i add a secret passageway or a secret room or a new puzzle, a new item to find or something. Soon, my simple little dungeon is this massive complex with history and secrets and lots of rooms. Too much for a beginning GM with no confidence to cut their teeth on.

However, I don't seem to have control over how my mind expands on the dungeons and if I have an idea for a neat things and don't add it to the dungeon then the simple dungeon now seems incredibly boring and too short. The ideas just sort of spread like vines.
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thinkslogically
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by thinkslogically » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:09 am

First off, keep everything you have. If there are rooms you don't use now, they'll still be useful in the future.

Secondly, look at each room and then be BRUTAL about cutting. If you're adding whole rooms just for flavour, do you really need them? If so, or you can't bear to cut it then keep it. But you could also add the flavour through items e.g. tapestries on the walls, paintings or books & diaries which are much smaller and more discrete.

I'd cut anything you consider a sidequest. Remember, this is a simple test run. It is NOT the end of the story if you don't want it to be, and this dungeon run can absolutely contain seeds for the plot of a new game next time where things can be more complex. But don't let the players play them out here. And if you're REALLY struggling to see them go, just remember that future-DM-Beandip will be wiser in the ways of DMing and will be able to run the next game better. It's ok to mess up in a test game but it would suck to use up ALL your ideas and end up wishing you had run the mechanics differently or something.

Just make it super simple. One quest, one path (you can have different flavours of the same path though), two outcomes (success / failure). When that's done, learn from what you did and move on to the next game :)

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by ThroughTheWell » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:17 am

And of course LAYF shows another way. Post a rough map here or PMed to another forumite, maybe early in the design, and get feedback on the number of rooms for a 1st run. Or, don't make it bigger than his sample shown here, would be another rule of thumb.

Better to get a short run done and save extra ideas for latter than to not get to a run.
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by thinkslogically » Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:39 am

Well, another weekend and another redraft of a few areas of the LotMK :)

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by thinkslogically » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:08 am

Another weekend, another redrafting of a couple of areas from LotMK :)

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Borys
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by Borys » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:23 am

Well, that makes a very funny double post.
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Boro in Unhallowed Isle
Boro in Civilization V
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by thinkslogically » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:30 am

Dammit! oops :S

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LAYF
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by LAYF » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:34 am

@Thinks; Who? redraft? of the known areas or only the so far non explored areas?

@Bean... I'd go with what Thinks and TTW have already said.. really.. a first run should be short, even if you are experienced but try a new system, a short run would be a good idea..

As you can see with my game, I've used 2 updates to even get you to location, Those could off cause just be text and Character make up.. but I decided to draw it..

was more fun for me (and hopefully you) that way...
and after that, as you can see, we will be at least round 3 before you even see the first indoor room.
and currently I update fast (as fast as you guys have made declared actions) to get the game going (will slow down a bit later)

The thing is, and I think it was Thinks who said this once, if you make 4 rooms, calculates 1 round to pass between each room, and 4 rounds in each room, that will ad up to about 50 game rounds....
what? no! that's only 20 you say... true... but your calculations are nearly ALWAYS short,,, maybe not 2,5x short... but short..

there are many. relay many factors to take into account if you want to try and calculate how long time it will take to complete a dungeon. a small example:
Sample run time of game wrote: Planed update rate = every 4th day.
Number of rooms =10
Number of players = 5
Challenges per room = 2.5 updates (The average time it should take to defeat opponents, traps or puzzles in a room)

These are the most "Hard numbers" you will get, and they are far from set at all, but if we expect them to be precise, those numbers will give you.
rooms * challenges * update rate = days to complete.
10*2.5*4 = 100 days to complete.

okay 100 days to complete.
now, there is also a lot of numbers that few remember to calculate.
► Show Spoiler
So, a total of 193 days for just 10 rooms.

And you know what... there are still a row numbers.. and this is the worst ones, that we have not calculated.
► Show Spoiler
so... only a little above 14 years to complete a test run with 10 rooms.. seems fair enough right?

No off cause not...BUT the whole point is, it WILL take longer than you think... because.. without a serious analysis (mine was serious until this last part) you have no idea of what will happen.
the first part of this analysis I presented is fair, most can do it, and that is also the time most will expect.
the second part you can only get a rough estimate by looking at other games, but I don't think is was to far off.
the last part... seriously... roll the dice.. there are so many things you cannot calculate for here, unless you do a deep deep research into all the forum games you can find.. and that will still only give you a rough estimate...
So.... after that horror movie up there, listen to these advises:
-Be brutal to the size.
-then cut it down a bit more.
-combine rooms if you can. (traps and encounters or traps and NPC's in the same rooms are no problem, NPC's and enemies needs a reason, but is also doable)
-then look it over and see if you can reuse a room on the way back, to keep it liner.
-BACKUPS, BACKUPS and BACKUPS!
- have patience, even do that is the hardest thing to do.....

And last.. be honest to yourself... sometime you NEED to make a change, or even worse, drop a game because it did not turn out as you hoped.. this is sad... but true... better you drop a game an lose some reputation as a game master, than you keep a game up till the bitter end, players love it and want more, but you hated it so much that you dont want to do it ever again... remember... making a game is FIRST for you and THEN for the players.... sad but true.

hope that helps and does not scare you away...

Best regards -LAYF-
-Best regards LAYF

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by BeanDip » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:11 am

Thanks everyone. Right now, I'm not exactly making leaps and bounds in progress due to a few factors but this does help. I've also gone back and been reading the Keenspot games to hopefully glean some hints , tips or ideas.
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thinkslogically
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by thinkslogically » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:15 am

The stuff they haven't seen yet :) Once they reach an area, its design becomes 'locked', and I don't mess with it. That's not to say that I won't make in-game changes (e.g. wandering monsters etc.) but I'm not looking to pull the rug out from under the players feet by messing with the places they've already been to. Nor have I changed anything particularly fundamental about the game itself, just changing the design to something better and (I think) more fun.

This is one 'problem' I've had with LotMK actually - because it's taken so long to get inside the dungeon area, I've probably redrawn it all 2-3 times because I've either learned something new about how to draw, or have picked up some more knowledge about how to make a design or puzzle more interesting. For interest's sake, here's a comparison of two areas:

Before:
► Show Spoiler
After:
► Show Spoiler
The first one was left empty-ish so I could add monsters later, but even if you exclude the bats I think the 2nd version is just WAY more interesting. Not perfect by any stretch (what is?) but at least there's more than one point of interest!

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LAYF
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by LAYF » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:27 am

BeanDip wrote:Thanks everyone. Right now, I'm not exactly making leaps and bounds in progress due to a few factors but this does help. I've also gone back and been reading the Keenspot games to hopefully glean some hints , tips or ideas.
Well, no matter the speed, keep it your own :) don't burn yourself out in the process, if you are lucky, you'll find that its a good way to get your mind off things.
It's cool to hear that you've got something out of our rambles... that was the point of this post after all :)
and yea.. keenspot holds a lot of gold.. both story vise and graphically...

@Thinks

Cool.. I love before and after images... sadly, I've reached the point where I delete some of my old stuff. my "build" folder contains 2.103 files currently... so its one big mess.. I really need to make order in it... but.. :S
And yea.. I know the feeling┬┤.. I've promised myself to not change things in the current dungeon, to see how it balances out.. but.... its still a bit of a challenge...
-Best regards LAYF

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by thinkslogically » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:38 am

Meh. You're not running a computer game or selling the ruleset to other people to use - it doesn't have to launch and be perfect. My first game I wanted to make sure everything was perfect before I started out (which worked fine for a short game except I forgot to include any loot), but I now prefer to wing it a lot more. I just add ideas to the pot as the games run and new ideas come from players, random inspiration or sometimes things just 'click' after I've drawn something random in an update. As long as it fits the overarching storyline it's all good :)

I basically run Schroedinger's dungeon, except you don't get to know if it's a cat that lives in the next room or a gelatinous cube :)

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by LAYF » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:44 am

True, and that's also how I usually do it, a big main setup, game ready to run, and then add to it.
but in this case, its also a test run, so keeping the starting setup, with a few exceptions (potions) will help me validate the system after wards, and thus better improve it for the real game :)

also :P nice analogy :P
-Best regards LAYF

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by thinkslogically » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:51 am

Thanks :)

One of the things I find trickiest is making up puzzles that will work in a forum game (which is what I was working on this weekend mostly along with a bit of artwork for the Island), because they DO have to work 'straight out of the box' but they're hard to balance at the best of times. I've had one puzzle lined up for LotMK for a while now, but it's been bothering me because I think it's too much of a deathtrap and that sucks for everyone. Not going to tell you what it is because I'm keeping the major premise, but I have changed what it'll do at least :)

I also had a tilty-floor room, but that just seemed stupid in this kind of game so it's gone. Also it was really ugly.

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by LAYF » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:00 am

thinkslogically wrote:I also had a tilty-floor room, but that just seemed stupid in this kind of game so it's gone. Also it was really ugly.
Yea... Tilt floors are stupid! you are right.. no one in their right mind would use anything like that :lol: what a fool... :lol: :D :| :? :shock: :(

hehe.. off cause you wont tell me.. and I don't want to know.. I still hope one of your players(character that is) dies a tragic but soon to come death and a spot gets open in one of your awesome games and the die gods are on my side just this once :P (a man can dream :P)

but yes... puzzles are tricky, also because, there effect are usually both a single and permanent effect of solved wrong... this leaves 2 choices, make it a weak effect and risk players just making random solutions because they don't fear failure. or make it a strong effect and risk a lot of things hitting the floor because of one small mistake either in game or worse, due to bad communication from the image and text :S
ofcause... puzzles can have multiple effects.. but same problems might still count.... Opponents are more easy to balance, also because their stats are set up the same way as the players...
-Best regards LAYF

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by BeanDip » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:05 am

thinkslogically wrote:I've had one puzzle lined up for LotMK for a while now, but it's been bothering me because I think it's too much of a deathtrap
:shock:

:paranoia:
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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by thinkslogically » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:12 am

@ Bean: >:D Nah, don't worry about it too much - it was a deathtrap because it was a bad puzzle and keeping it in would just have made you all angry with me :)

@LAYF: See that right there is a decent tilty-floor puzzle. Simple, effective and totally deadly. This was mine:

Image

It was based on a D&D-style trap, but I don't think it's particularly well-suited to a forum game. Hell, aside from anything else it would take like 2 weeks to cross the things unless the players just said, 'Oh, it's a tilty floor. Well, I run to the middle, grab the key and run to the far side. Simple!'

So that's gone in the bin today :)

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by LAYF » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:32 am

But but but.. :( that could easy have killed the one player I need to get a spot :becry:
that is off cause made on the assumption with absolutely no prove that 1 death = 1 spot :P

hehe... I can see what you mean.. thats allways the problem with a forum game.. if you divide anything into multiple rooms/squares/floors/ect you better be prepared that the players will use at least 1 turn on each :S
thats why I love conditional actions:
1-Move to the plate
2a- If its stable, run over it and grab the key
2b- if it tilts, run to the key, jump forward to re-balance the floor, run to the other side.
3- be awesome :D
-Best regards LAYF

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by thinkslogically » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:37 am

yup, but then allowing those conditional actions make it no fun at all to play. They either auto-win or auto-fail and it probably comes down to a dice roll, which in my game would be pretty unfair since they have no stats to use for agility etc. so they couldn't alter the outcome in any meaningful way. I think what I have now is a bit more fair, but I guess we'll need to see what the players make of it all (if they get there!).

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by LAYF » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:45 am

Ah true.. when there are no stats to help the outcome its a bit unfair.

See.. this is good things to discuss.. its small things that many would not think about before it actually happened in game...

Speaking about design... anyone know what Happened to Ratha? he suddenly disappeared again in the start of august :S
-Best regards LAYF

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Re: Dungeon design and discussion

Post by thinkslogically » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:03 am

No, I haven't got a clue. Maybe he just didn't enjoy the forum as much as he used to? Hope it's not a recurrence of whatever caused him to leave the first time though.

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