Kore Discussion / Speculation

[Krulle]

i do think that Kore's backstory is gonna have something to do with the Axe of Prissan though,

http://www.goblinscomic.com/11262010-2/

I'm trying to read something into the 1 eye worth of facial expression in panel 9... fear? shock?
seems to me like he's encountered that axe before.

Yes, Kore did meet the Axe of Prissan before.
Read Flejj Hillmovers biography page here.
(art is visible on the page translated to russian here.)

[YardMeat]

Kore states he was "gifted". He was one of the Nine Paladins who survived after sealing the Prissan Demon and due to this service his God blessed him to be unable to fall.

There is probably something to this. Paladin powers do not come from deities, but perhaps a deity can perform some sort of curse/blessing to prevent a paladin from falling anyway.

I think it is going to end up being a curse rather than a blessing, however. The fortune teller called it a curse while Kore called it a blessing, and I think the fortune teller is being slightly more objective about the situation than Kore can be.

My prediction is that Kore will end up being one of the nine surviving paladins, as you said. Somehow the demon was able to curse him so that he retains his powers even while committing heinously evil acts. Kore is convinced that he is good, but he is actually one of the most evil beings in the setting, and since he is still a paladin, he is drawn to the axe and can't be harmed by it. This is all part of the demon's plan for Kore to take the axe. With someone as evil as Kore wielding it, the demon will escape again.

[BeanDip]

My prediction is that Kore will end up being one of the nine surviving paladins, as you said. Somehow the demon was able to curse him so that he retains his powers even while committing heinously evil acts. Kore is convinced that he is good, but he is actually one of the most evil beings in the setting, and since he is still a paladin, he is drawn to the axe and can't be harmed by it. This is all part of the demon's plan for Kore to take the axe. With someone as evil as Kore wielding it, the demon will escape again.

Oooh. That just became one of my favourite theories

[SamWiser]

My prediction is that Kore will end up being one of the nine surviving paladins, as you said. Somehow the demon was able to curse him so that he retains his powers even while committing heinously evil acts. Kore is convinced that he is good, but he is actually one of the most evil beings in the setting, and since he is still a paladin, he is drawn to the axe and can't be harmed by it. This is all part of the demon's plan for Kore to take the axe. With someone as evil as Kore wielding it, the demon will escape again.

Oooh. That just became one of my favourite theories

My only problem with this is that it doesn't fit in with what we know about Kore. First off, he isn't chasing the GAP for the axe. He is chasing them because he wants to kill the Cryptic Fall Clan. Also, he has never chosen an enemy that he can't defeat. We know that because he never picks a new target until the current one is killed, and he is still alive. If he was one of the original paladins, then he would know that he can't fight the demon and live. He doesn't seem arrogant. At least not that arrogant.

[ChuckNorris]

My prediction is that Kore will end up being one of the nine surviving paladins, as you said. Somehow the demon was able to curse him so that he retains his powers even while committing heinously evil acts. Kore is convinced that he is good, but he is actually one of the most evil beings in the setting, and since he is still a paladin, he is drawn to the axe and can't be harmed by it. This is all part of the demon's plan for Kore to take the axe. With someone as evil as Kore wielding it, the demon will escape again.

Oooh. That just became one of my favourite theories

My only problem with this is that it doesn't fit in with what we know about Kore. First off, he isn't chasing the GAP for the axe. He is chasing them because he wants to kill the Cryptic Fall Clan. Also, he has never chosen an enemy that he can't defeat. We know that because he never picks a new target until the current one is killed, and he is still alive. If he was one of the original paladins, then he would know that he can't fight the demon and live. He doesn't seem arrogant. At least not that arrogant.

If this theory's right, it could just be coincidence; he chases the cryptic fall clan members because he thinks they're evil, and came by the axe, which he'll now continue chasing the GAP for. I don't support this idea entirely, just thinking how it could work.

[Lee]

My prediction is that Kore will end up being one of the nine surviving paladins, as you said. Somehow the demon was able to curse him so that he retains his powers even while committing heinously evil acts. Kore is convinced that he is good, but he is actually one of the most evil beings in the setting, and since he is still a paladin, he is drawn to the axe and can't be harmed by it. This is all part of the demon's plan for Kore to take the axe. With someone as evil as Kore wielding it, the demon will escape again.

Oooh. That just became one of my favourite theories

My only problem with this is that it doesn't fit in with what we know about Kore. First off, he isn't chasing the GAP for the axe. He is chasing them because he wants to kill the Cryptic Fall Clan. Also, he has never chosen an enemy that he can't defeat. We know that because he never picks a new target until the current one is killed, and he is still alive. If he was one of the original paladins, then he would know that he can't fight the demon and live. He doesn't seem arrogant. At least not that arrogant.

How exactly does he know the GAP is from the cryptic falls clan? Y&B tells him she doesn't know if anyone survived the battle and then he goes from the war camp to their village. The only way he could know is if after killing everyone at the village Kore went back and decided to follow all the tracks leading away from the war camp, which begs the question of how he managed to catch up with them as, in this comic: http://www.goblinscomic.com/03262006/ Y&B tells him the village is 8 days to the south. So Kore would have to have traveled 16 days just to start tracking the Gap, which doesn't even include the swamp, Brassmoon, and the mad cart dash from Brassmoon.

It may not be a matter of Kore wanting to release and kill the demon. Kore does not believe he is doing anything wrong he is convinced that he is eradicating all evil. So if the demon was powerful enough to curse him so that he could commit evil acts and not lose his Paladin status, the first question would be why would the demon do that? Answer because the demon also placed a spell on Kore to convince him (Kore) that he is the only one worthy of wielding the axe because he is the only Paladin that is dedicated to destroying all evil and potential evil, thus if/when Kore every takes up the Axe of Prissan Kore would be using it for evil thus releasing the demon from its prison.

[SamWiser]

Y&B tells him that she doesn't know if anybody survived the battle then he leaves. We don't know where he went. I'm assuming he can track people somehow, so it isn't that big of a stretch to think that he followed some mysterious goblin tracks out into a field then toward Brassmoon. Or, maybe he needed to get more supplies and Brassmoon was the closest city. That would explain the first sighting. Then he could have wanted to go through the same dungeon as the GAP, as the exit is very close to the camp. I think that it could easily be chance that they met, or he could have been tracking them the whole time. Both situations seem workable to me.

[Dragomok]

Y&B tells him that she doesn't know if anybody survived the battle then he leaves. We don't know where he went. [...]

Actually, we do - he went for the Cryptic Fall's village - which, coincidentally, is exactly the same place GAP is headed.

As for what took Kore so long to catch up - there was a lengthy discussion about that when the map was revealed on Pinterest, but I'm afraid it went the way of the dodo with the latest forum crash.

[Lee]

Y&B tells him that she doesn't know if anybody survived the battle then he leaves. We don't know where he went. [...]

Actually, we do - he went for the Cryptic Fall's village - which, coincidentally, is exactly the same place GAP is headed.

As for what took Kore so long to catch up - there was a lengthy discussion about that when the map was revealed on Pinterest, but I'm afraid it went the way of the dodo with the latest forum crash.

Before they started heading back to the village they all took levels and: http://www.goblinscomic.com/03182006/ traveled east a day or two to reach the swamps. Though there is the possibility that they went South as well as East (I've never seen the map so if someone could clarify that, I'd be grateful). Though to me that still doesn't explain how Kore found them knowing they were from the Cryptic Fall Clan.

[SamWiser]

Like I said earlier, he could have noticed the group of goblins footprints and decided to track them. Or he could have wanted more gear and went to Brassmoon. Then decided to clear out a dungeon before he finished the Cryptic Fall clan for good.

They went East to Brassmoon (A little south as well) then SW to the dungeon. Map spoilered below.

► Show Spoiler

[Dragomok]

[...]Though to me that still doesn't explain how Kore found them knowing they were from the Cryptic Fall Clan.

► Show Spoiler

Or she could simply just run into them by an accident. According to the map, Depths of the Dragon's Maw (the dungeon) is one of the two shortest ways to reach the village, so whatever circumstances made him choose that path guaranteed that it would sooner or later either follow GAPs footprints or have GAP follow them.

[Reads_Forums]

I expect Kore will be taking a trip down the forever drop, clich├®d way to get rid of an unstoppable for but would make the pacing right for a chase through the dungeon, culminating in a similar standoff at the exit, if Kore is beaten at the entrance the would be no need to split the arc at this point.

[Godbot]

I expect Kore will be taking a trip down the forever drop, clich├®d way to get rid of an unstoppable for but would make the pacing right for a chase through the dungeon, culminating in a similar standoff at the exit, if Kore is beaten at the entrance the would be no need to split the arc at this point.

I dunno, Kore's this unbeatable legendary badass/constant looming threat who may or may not have been doing his whole Dalek thing for the past 1057 years. Not to mention he killed Chief. I see fighting and defeating Kore (and proving that monsters can be heroes too) as suitable material for the end of the comic. He's not some temporary villain who only serves as a plot device to get the GAP to go into the Dragon's Maw and then dies - he's more like a potential final boss.

That or the unseen wizard who apparently made K'sellis and Goblinslayer. Either/or.

[Reads_Forums]

I expect Kore will be taking a trip down the forever drop, clich├®d way to get rid of an unstoppable for but would make the pacing right for a chase through the dungeon, culminating in a similar standoff at the exit, if Kore is beaten at the entrance the would be no need to split the arc at this point.

I dunno, Kore's this unbeatable legendary badass/constant looming threat who may or may not have been doing his whole Dalek thing for the past 1057 years. Not to mention he killed Chief. I see fighting and defeating Kore (and proving that monsters can be heroes too) as suitable material for the end of the comic. He's not some temporary villain who only serves as a plot device to get the GAP to go into the Dragon's Maw and then dies - he's more like a potential final boss.

That or the unseen wizard who apparently made K'sellis and Goblinslayer. Either/or.

I believe that it would be pretty near the end of the GAP line. They have to confront him somewhere and they wouldn't carry on running to the village to make their stand, the forever drop at least provides and environmental factor which could allow them to win, they have no hope in a straight fight. Also villains who fall off a cliff and body isn't found have a tendency to turn up again.

The biggest big bad would be the demon in the AoP, there's also junior and the remaining potential of the great white terror to consider, all of which weigh comparably in the scale of big badness to Kore. I'm not sure how the lines will recombine but I suspect they must and I doubt all the big bads will end up sharing the final arc.

[Caltera]

There is sure much badass vilain in Thuntverse. Kore is one that may be the final villain, as I believe junior will fall by the hands of die, and the white terror is somehow really improbable, as she don't have her wings anymore. Yet the demon curse theory is one of my favorite. It could go along with the rules and would make a nice ending for goblins (all group reunited facing the demons and winning)

Well, I guess we'll learn more about kore once we return to the GAP (maybe just after the MoM arc)

[Prometheus]

It's really cool how many theories there are about how Kore can
1. Retain his paladin abilities.
2. Be unharmed by the Axe.
3. Still kill goblins.

I have two theories which essentially boil down to one truth: alignment is relative.
1. Reality 156 is ruled by a human god. This is why goblins are hunted with prejudice despite big ear's clear use of the axe. Assigning Alignment to Kore is as silly as assigning alignment to Boba Fett after only watching the original 3 movies. When it comes down to it, we simply don't have enough information to decide.
2. Alignment (even in the player's handbook) is about a character's INTENTIONS. It never says anywhere in the alignment section anything about ACTIONS. It gives a few examples of possible actions a character of a given alignment might take. That is why the paladin section specifies that a paladin may never consort with an evil creature. They recognize there is no "Ends justify the means" but that doesn't mean that they have an unquestionable grasp of right and wrong. They're only human (or dwarf, or goblin, or elven, or whatever).

[YardMeat]

It's really cool how many theories there are about how Kore can
1. Retain his paladin abilities.
2. Be unharmed by the Axe.
3. Still kill goblins.

Somehow he has remained a paladin, but characters within the setting have remarked that this is unusual considering his actions, we know that it is somehow tied to a curse/blessing, and killing goblins is not the only issue. He knowingly kills and tortures living beings that he knows are not evil.

I have two theories which essentially boil down to one truth: alignment is relative.

Except that it isn't in D&D. If Thunt wanted it to be relative in his own setting, that's fine, but I don't see any indication that he has done so. If alignment is that relative, then there wouldn't be anything unusual about Kore. Paladins like him would have happened before, and there would be no reason for characters within the setting to be surprised by the fact that he has retained his abilities.

Just out of curiosity, how would detect evil work in a D&D setting where alignment was relative? Would the Paladin be detecting people that think they are evil or would he be detecting people that he would consider evil given their actions and intentions? Similarly, how would smite evil work?

1. Reality 156 is ruled by a human god.

Gods have nothing to do with alignment. They have alignments themselves, and they have no ability to change the definition of alignments (at least not in the core). Good is defined as an independent divine force all its own in the core rule book. As I've mentioned elsewhere, a Paladin's powers do not come from a deity. They come from the impersonal "divine forces" of good and law just as Druids and Rangers get their spells from the impersonal "divine force" of nature. Similarly, theistic Clerics get their powers form their god and Clerics that do not follow a deity get their powers from the impersonal "divine forces" of the cause that they are devoted to. Needless to say, the existence of such a divine force of good implies that good and evil are objective.

2. Alignment (even in the player's handbook) is about a character's INTENTIONS. It never says anywhere in the alignment section anything about ACTIONS.

Then we must be reading entirely different books. I just got through reading the alignment section again.

If your character acts in a way more appropriate to another alignment, the DM may decide that your characterÔÇÖs alignment has changed to match her actions.

It has plenty to say about actions, as does the section on "Ex-Paladins."

Edit - after another look, the very first paragraph of the alignment section clarifies that good and evil are external forces, not just a matter of point of view:

Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos.

[Caltera]

Another crazy theory came up to my mind.

We know that Kore:

-Is a dwarf
-Is a Paladin
-Is doing evil act but keep is paladin status
-His cursed but see his curse as a blessing

Now we think that he was somehow one of the paladin that have sealed the demon of the Prissian. Now one theory I've seen here said that the demon cursed him to do evil act so that one day he can free him from the axe. But Kore wouldn't see it as a blessing if it were like this. Now we know that if he was willingly doing evil act he'd lost his paladin status.

Now what about if the blessing he had received was the eternity? Well not dying from age can be a curse as a blessing. Imagine the god pleased by the humans effort to drive the demon into the axe of Prissian have blessed the only paladin remaining, Kore, with immortality, at one condition. His mission was to hunt all evil in this world so that any evil can't ever draw the axe and set the demon free. To accomplish his mission he was allowed to use any way he would see fit, even evil act like torturing.

Now a true paladin wouldn't do evil act even for this kind of mission. But what after hundred year? Seeing the evil growing more and more powerfull, seing the danger of the axe become more important. Evil is like a seed, once you begin to use it and see how easy it is, you become used to it, and commit it more and more often (see it like the dark force point in sw tabletop rpg)

This is not the best theory but I find it interesting story telling way. Will it be possible in a D&d settings? For what I know, curse can be dispelled at high lvl, so if Kore would like his curse to be released he'd have seek a way to get rid of it.

[YardMeat]

Now we think that he was somehow one of the paladin that have sealed the demon of the Prissian. Now one theory I've seen here said that the demon cursed him to do evil act so that one day he can free him from the axe. But Kore wouldn't see it as a blessing if it were like this. Now we know that if he was willingly doing evil act he'd lost his paladin status.

When I put forth the theory that the curse came from the demon, I did not mean that Kore is now willingly and knowingly working for the demon and/or willingly and knowingly committing evil acts.

Now what about if the blessing he had received was the eternity? Well not dying from age can be a curse as a blessing. Imagine the god pleased by the humans effort to drive the demon into the axe of Prissian have blessed the only paladin remaining, Kore, with immortality, at one condition. His mission was to hunt all evil in this world so that any evil can't ever draw the axe and set the demon free. To accomplish his mission he was allowed to use any way he would see fit, even evil act like torturing.

Now a true paladin wouldn't do evil act even for this kind of mission. But what after hundred year? Seeing the evil growing more and more powerfull, seing the danger of the axe become more important. Evil is like a seed, once you begin to use it and see how easy it is, you become used to it, and commit it more and more often (see it like the dark force point in sw tabletop rpg)

I think the curse and the fact that he retains his paladin abilities are going to be closely related, so I don't think the curse is something like immortality. Immortality might explain why he has a different view on evil now (treating it as a seed, as you said), but that would not explain how he has kept his abilities.

However, I really, really like your idea that his curse/blessing has something to do with eliminating evil so that the axe is safe. That is one of my favorite theories so far.

This is not the best theory but I find it interesting story telling way. Will it be possible in a D&d settings? For what I know, curse can be dispelled at high lvl, so if Kore would like his curse to be released he'd have seek a way to get rid of it.

I'm assuming that the curse is effecting his mind in some way so that he thinks it is a blessing, which is why he is not seeking a way to get rid of it.

I'm assuming that Thunt is following the basic core rules when it comes to paladins and alignment. It's his setting, though, so he can change whatever he wants. However, if he is using the core rules, we can immediately rule out two popular groups of theories regarding Kore:

1) All theories that have to do with good and evil being relative. Good and evil independent forces in D&D that objectively influence the universe without regard for philosophy or sophistry.
2) All theories that involve his god allowing him to keep his powers for a special mission. Paladin powers do not come from deities.

I think we can also assume that whatever magic is at work is extremely powerful. It appears to be permanent, and it is either strong enough to alter his mind so that he is not knowing/willingly committing evil or so strong that it allows him to keep his paladin powers despite his evil acts.

[Reads_Forums]

Does that make a good act that due to a lack of information which was actually evil, a good act or a evil act in the d&d universe?

Or vice versa, evil overlord kills an innocent only to discover that person was part of a plot against the king *ping* "What, neutral??? But I LIKE these black robes..."

[YardMeat]

Does that make a good act that due to a lack of information which was actually evil, a good act or a evil act in the d&d universe?

Or vice versa, evil overlord kills an innocent only to discover that person was part of a plot against the king *ping* "What, neutral??? But I LIKE these black robes..."

I've never seen a game run that way. Intention has to be involved somehow. However, intention alone is not enough to make an act good or evil. It is necessary, but not sufficient.

[Prometheus]

Ok I reread every section of the comic and the section in the PHB about alignment and I have a few more thing
1. Not sure where this curse/blessing theory came from, maybe it's in one of thunt's tweets which i didn't see?
2. What if he's done so many good things that he's managed to actually remain good? (killing two hundred actually evil monsters makes up for killing four or five neutral or good ones, right? 500 and you can torture one evil creature without losing your abilities.) He can't talk to them after all, to see if they're really evil because that would be knowingly consorting with evil creatures.
3. Is there any evidence that the world does NOT have relative alignment? Even without alignment being relative maybe just REALLY believes that all goblins are evil, so he is not knowingly committing an evil act by accidentally killing a few who aren't.

[Krulle]

Ok I reread every section of the comic and the section in the PHB about alignment and I have a few more thing
1. Not sure where this curse/blessing theory came from, maybe it's in one of thunt's tweets which i didn't see?
2. What if he's done so many good things that he's managed to actually remain good? (killing two hundred actually evil monsters makes up for killing four or five neutral or good ones, right? 500 and you can torture one evil creature without losing your abilities.) He can't talk to them after all, to see if they're really evil because that would be knowingly consorting with evil creatures.
3. Is there any evidence that the world does NOT have relative alignment? Even without alignment being relative maybe just REALLY believes that all goblins are evil, so he is not knowingly committing an evil act by accidentally killing a few who aren't.

1. Read http://www.goblinscomic.com/03252006/ and following pages (Book 2, Chapter 8: Kore's Conversation), especially this page.
2. One evil deed is sufficient to loose paladin status. Normally. Racism is evil, and racists absolutely believe in it...
3. THunt confirmed, that Kore is a paladin according to the rules.

[YardMeat]

2. What if he's done so many good things that he's managed to actually remain good? (killing two hundred actually evil monsters makes up for killing four or five neutral or good ones, right? 500 and you can torture one evil creature without losing your abilities.)

That might allow him to remain lawful good (though I don't know of a DM that would let a player get by with this), but the paladin code of conduct is much more strict than that. One evil act is all it takes to lose your abilities.

He can't talk to them after all, to see if they're really evil because that would be knowingly consorting with evil creatures.

It would take an extremely liberal reading of the term "consorting" to rule that even speaking to an evil character counts. Besides, it doesn't matter. He doesn't have to speak to anyone to find out if they are evil. Paladins can detect evil at will.

3. Is there any evidence that the world does NOT have relative alignment?

The core rules do not have relative alignment. In the core rules, good is an objective, divine force that shapes the world, not just a philosophical notion. Thunt has said that Kore is still a paladin by the core rules (or so I have heard everyone say). Besides, as I have pointed out before, if the world did have relative alignment, there would be other paladins like Kore running around. A couple of characters have noted at this point that he should have lost his powers by now. His retention of his powers is something clearly unique, even within the setting. We also have seen things like detect evil and smite evil work in this setting. How would these abilities work if evil were relative?

Even without alignment being relative maybe just REALLY believes that all goblins are evil, so he is not knowingly committing an evil act by accidentally killing a few who aren't.

He can detect evil at will. He knows they aren't evil. I thought at first that his ability to detect evil might be broken, but he has already knowingly killed an innocent, non-evil character at least once. He outright said that he knew the dwarven kid was not evil, but killed him because he might one day grow up to sympathize with evil.

[currently_awake]

What if Kore KNEW beyond any doubt that the dwarf child he killed was EVIL beyond redemption? If he truly believed that then his killing the child makes sense. If his armour was cursed to make him see everything as either very good or very evil then his actions make sense. Sort of a confusion spell, only it makes him detect evil from anyone who violates a very narrow code of conduct. Since he never kills/harms GOOD creatures he keeps his paladin status.