1 Jan 2014 --- Hope goblins are good at puzzles...

[YardMeat]

A Blackguard most emphatically cannot "trade any number of Paladin levels for Blackguard levels".

I'm afraid you are mistaken.

11 or more

A fallen paladin of this stature immediately gains a blackguard level for each level of paladin he trades in.

Ah, I was mistaken. So if Kore had 11 or more levels of paladin before becoming an ex-paladin, and then he became a blackguard, then he could choose how many levels to trade in. I'm not really sure what the point would be to that, however. There would literally be no advantage to keeping any of your ex-paladin levels. All you would be doing is voluntarily passing on some special abilities.

It doesn't matter, though. The point was that Kore can't be a blackguard if Thunt is using the RAW. He has used a paladin-only spell that he would not have had access to after falling, regardless of whether he traded his paladin levels or not. He also used lay on hands in a way that blackguards can't, and he could not have retained that power as a fallen/ex-paladin. No matter how he mixes and matches his paladin and blackguard levels, he can't become a blackguard without falling and he can't retain paladin spells and special abilities if he falls. Kore is a paladin, not an ex-paladin, hence the puzzle in the the first place.

[Ultima]

Just gonna say this: Herbert's a dick.

If my DM did this to me, put me in an encounter that my character can not possibly survive, I'd yell at him and storm out. I understand you are trying to tell a story, but if that story causes my character to die "because the story demands it", I'm done. If my character dies because of my incompetence, that's a different story altogether, but I don't like losing, so I'd probably still be grumpy for a couple hours.

So, either there is some (possibly secret (probably hidden in plain sight, because I'm dumb like that)) way in which I can be victorious, or my DM is an asshole.

Conclusion: Forgath can somehow win this, or Herbert's a dick.

[Wandering Mage]

Last night, after going to bed, I had a weird theory about why Thunt didn't show us Kore's face.

► Show Spoiler

Part of his face is transparent.

Kore, being the last of the Greyhill Paladins, Cursed Scourge of the Realm, was claimed by the demon that now inhabits the Ax. The demon tried to give himself an 'out' from being imprisoned, and twisted Kore's beliefs. It's the Demon that's providing Kore with his abilities. (A Blackguard can trade any number of Paladin levels for Blackguard levels. And their abilities are almost identical. Not sure if even taking only one level of Blackguard, and keeping Paladin will allow access to the Paladin abilities. But, this is Thunt's world...)

The Demon is counting on Kore to root out and destroy all 'seeds of evil' that it can find. And, when the ax doesn't have a 'jailor,' it emits an ever growing aura of evil. The demon is counting on Kore to search the realm, and stumbling upon it's current jailor.

Thunt did set things up where the Demon-claimed lived a long time (Biscuit) He also provided a visual short cut so we could identify them.

► Show Spoiler

Other than the Blackguard stuff (as previously explained by another above), this is an incredibly good theory. It also would cover why he has his helmet covering one of his eyes. While that could easily be explained by eye damage or loss by a number of other means, the demonmarking is just the sort of thing Thunt would sneak in there. The design of that helmet is so unique, I really doubt this was just Thunt deciding the character is one-eyed. The motivations for the demon causing his curse are spot on, it explains his potentially long life, it explains his "last of the Greyhill Paladins," it explains the source of how Kore is still a Paladin and can still commit these evil acts.

Not sure why with the spoiler tags. In any case I'm going to head and agree with you, this is totally what's up with Kore.

[vonpenguin]

Just gonna say this: Herbert's a dick.

If my DM did this to me, put me in an encounter that my character can not possibly survive, I'd yell at him and storm out. I understand you are trying to tell a story, but if that story causes my character to die "because the story demands it", I'm done. If my character dies because of my incompetence, that's a different story altogether, but I don't like losing, so I'd probably still be grumpy for a couple hours.

So, either there is some (possibly secret (probably hidden in plain sight, because I'm dumb like that)) way in which I can be victorious, or my DM is an asshole.

Conclusion: Forgath can somehow win this, or Herbert's a dick.

Or Forgath's player and Herbert could have worked this out well in advance. I've planned out horrific things for my characters months in advance before. I know at least one player who's character was plotted to die before the end of the first story arc. And there's no certainty that Forgath will even die here and now. He'll die under those conditions but we don't know that it's not a set of similar conditions later in the story.

[Madfox11]

Just gonna say this: Herbert's a dick.

If my DM did this to me, put me in an encounter that my character can not possibly survive, I'd yell at him and storm out. I understand you are trying to tell a story, but if that story causes my character to die "because the story demands it", I'm done. If my character dies because of my incompetence, that's a different story altogether, but I don't like losing, so I'd probably still be grumpy for a couple hours.

So, either there is some (possibly secret (probably hidden in plain sight, because I'm dumb like that)) way in which I can be victorious, or my DM is an asshole.

Conclusion: Forgath can somehow win this, or Herbert's a dick.

Or Forgath's player and Herbert could have worked this out well in advance. I've planned out horrific things for my characters months in advance before. I know at least one player who's character was plotted to die before the end of the first story arc. And there's no certainty that Forgath will even die here and now. He'll die under those conditions but we don't know that it's not a set of similar conditions later in the story.

Or the DM knows there are ways to ressurect the character afterwards. Mind you, considering how Herbert dealt with MinMax bragging and complaining about the ease of earlier adventures (randomly opening a gate to Hell) I am not entirely sure he is the best of DMs Than again, if a min-max slayer type of player changes into a real RPer as the player of MinMax did, I am sure the DM might have changed his gaming style a bit as well

(Edit: removed the use of mature in regards to gaming style.)

[willpell]

There would literally be no advantage to keeping any of your ex-paladin levels. All you would be doing is voluntarily passing on some special abilities.

You contradict yourself. Special abilities ARE the advantage of keeping your ex-paladin levels. If you start out as a Paladin 12 and then fall, you have the choice of becoming, say, a Level 5 Blackguard with Fiendish Summoning, extra Sneak Attack, and Lay on Hands...or you could be a Level 3 Blackguard with extra Sneak Attack and Lay on Hands, or a Level 1 Blackguard with just Lay on Hands. Going strictly by Smite Good, you gain a daily at 2nd level, one at 5th and one at 10th, but you also get one for keeping an ex-paladin level and another for keeping five or nine of them. Thusly, Paladin 12 turns into Blackguard 7/Ex-Paladin 5, he has Smite Good 4/day, but if he became a Blackguard 8/Ex-Paladin 4 instead, he would only Smite Good 3/day. Not that one daily Smite is worth more than an entire level of Blackguard, with spells and everything, but still, if you're really into Smiting Good, you could regard this as an advantage.

[LooksAndSmiles]

I admit I don't know sh*t about DnD classes and rules, and am still intrigued / amazed by the story.

Reading all these "game related" speculations makes me realize that there is a whole new layer of excitement that comes from figuring out how would this actually work in tabletop... Anyway, I'm too lazy to immerse in DnD, so I'll just sit back and enjoy the show as it is.

[RedwoodElf]

Well with Forgath attempting a "You Shall Not Pass", the prophecy may be close, but I don't see any serpent...yet.

[WastesTime]

Well with Forgath attempting a "You Shall Not Pass", the prophecy may be close, but I don't see any serpent...yet.

"When the serpent becomes your prey" - they are already going after the VIPER clan (maybe they don't know it, but the White Terror is Duv so...)

[TripsTraps]

So I guess...

...Forgath is gay after all!

[stevedj]

To those that think Forgath has a chance, be very, very afraid...

You see, THunt said this earlier in this very thread:

I have a theory.

Forgath comes back as an Autobot.

Now, let's take that apart shall we? I would expect that his theory (in jest, of course) is the Autobot. What likely ISN'T theory in that statement is "Forgath comes back"

That suggests that THunt has kinda revealed that Forgath is going to die.

At least, that's my take on this.

[gordo]

Just gonna say this: Herbert's a dick.

If my DM did this to me, put me in an encounter that my character can not possibly survive, I'd yell at him and storm out. I understand you are trying to tell a story, but if that story causes my character to die "because the story demands it", I'm done. If my character dies because of my incompetence, that's a different story altogether, but I don't like losing, so I'd probably still be grumpy for a couple hours.

So, either there is some (possibly secret (probably hidden in plain sight, because I'm dumb like that)) way in which I can be victorious, or my DM is an asshole.

Conclusion: Forgath can somehow win this, or Herbert's a dick.

Of course some dungeon masters are just bad and arbitrary, but Forgath made the choice to sacrifice his characther to let the rest of the party live. I did it with one dark hero that was slowly becoming attached to the group and it was a memorable scene, mostly because it was my choice to do so.

D&D is about heroes and their stories, and sometimes a hero defying the impossible is way more interesting than a opportunist only fighting what he can defeat because he is afraid to lose.

Herberth can have some trick to save Forgath, but this scene where he pulls the responsability to himself in order to save his bro only is heroic because he cannot see any way to get away with his decision.

[Indilee]

What's going to be interesting to me is if Forgath does die during this - is how it affects Minmax. We know he's taken a level of barbarian, which given the amounts of rage that Kore has made Complains go through with Chief's death - I doubt Minmax will sit still if the prophecy of 'lots of screaming' happens with Kore vs Forgath. Especially after separating from Kin in the maze as they have just done. While MM has his strengths, one of his strengths and hindrances is his own heart, which it's pretty clear that he cares a lot about Forgath after all their adventuring together as well. I think it'd trigger MM's rage if Forgath went down, which could equal him going after Kore himself, or turning it on the Goblins who might end up pulling him into the dungeon crawl to save him (something I could see Ears doing).

I do like the speculation of Kore not being a dwarf at all, given what Thunt's shown us, but I believe that was discussed earlier before I joined the forums, so is moot now. Very interested to see where this is going though. I'm enjoying it even if it's tugging the heart strings.

[YardMeat]

There would literally be no advantage to keeping any of your ex-paladin levels. All you would be doing is voluntarily passing on some special abilities.

You contradict yourself. Special abilities ARE the advantage of keeping your ex-paladin levels. If you start out as a Paladin 12 and then fall, you have the choice of becoming, say, a Level 5 Blackguard with Fiendish Summoning, extra Sneak Attack, and Lay on Hands...or you could be a Level 3 Blackguard with extra Sneak Attack and Lay on Hands, or a Level 1 Blackguard with just Lay on Hands. Going strictly by Smite Good, you gain a daily at 2nd level, one at 5th and one at 10th, but you also get one for keeping an ex-paladin level and another for keeping five or nine of them. Thusly, Paladin 12 turns into Blackguard 7/Ex-Paladin 5, he has Smite Good 4/day, but if he became a Blackguard 8/Ex-Paladin 4 instead, he would only Smite Good 3/day. Not that one daily Smite is worth more than an entire level of Blackguard, with spells and everything, but still, if you're really into Smiting Good, you could regard this as an advantage.

Wow. I completely misread how ex-paladin/blackguard levels work. That's going to have some major implications for another game that I am in.

As far as the comic goes, however, it doesn't matter. Kore is not a blackguard and he is not an ex-paladin. He has used paladin-only spells and abilities. For whatever strange reason, he remains a paladin despite his actions, most likely because his curse means that he is not committing these acts knowingly/willingly.

[LAYF]

► Show Spoiler

Forget the previous sneak peek. This one is better. Dwarf vs dwarf! Cleric vs Paladin! A fight 9 years in the making!

A fight 9 years in the making".... NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[warrl]

Yes, those odd marks have been noticed. And discussed at length.

You know, there's a silver lining here: When Kore kills Forgath, I will revel in the glory of that idiotic theory being proven wrong once and for all.

Seriously... I hardly even care anymore, I just want the rampant speculation to stop.

HEY GUYS I HAVE A THEORY....

It could be bunnies!

(Somebody had to say it.)

[EatsAbug]

Forgath and Kore HAVE to spend some time talking! It should be very interesting to see if Kore adds anything to his motivations - why he has to destroy "seeded with evil" rather than just "all evil monsters". Probably something that will shock and anger Forgath, like a claim that it is Herbert's will (which of course, it is, since Kore is Herbert's NPC!)

[Adzuroth]

Has anyone else besides me figured out who Kore really is? My best guess is he is a Palamandyr, as featured in Dragon Magazine #106. I don't recall if he leaves any identifying marks (calling cards if you will) typical of Palamandyrs but perhaps he does and we don't see them, or else he chooses not to for whatever reason. On a different note has anyone else noticed that the late klik-klik came straight from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

How about this for a fantasy match: Tempts Fate vs. Kore! Who will win and how? Place your bets now!

Message to Thunt: IF FORGATH DIES WE RIOT!!!!!!

[speakslittle]

Come on Thunt. This is when Junior shows up and eats Kore dead. Right?
Right?
Please?

[Never Finishes Anyth]

You know... while we're considering the possibility that Kore is somehow future Forgath... why not go all the way with it? What if Forgath manages to kill Kore, thus fulfilling the prophecy and redeeming his future self and staying alive?

Isn't that the plot of Looper?

[RMT1976]

Or, an impressively powered up Kin appears having realised how she was betrayed by the other Kin and kicks Kore in the painfuls, saves Forgath and reunites with MM. See how it resolves itself.

[AntMac]

Or, an impressively powered up Kin appears having realised how she was betrayed by the other Kin and kicks Kore in the painfuls, saves Forgath and reunites with MM. See how it resolves itself.

Why can't we plus one posts here?.

Or have a happy resolution, for that matter?.

[WastesTime]

A powered up Kin would really be nice but I doubt such a deus ex machina is possible in Thunt's universe. If someone dies, their death is always meaningful - and in this case it is so. Forgath's death will propel Minmax's growth as a character and as for Kin - we are yet to see her again, no doubt.

[PatchworkBBC]

Just gonna say this: Herbert's a dick.

If my DM did this to me, put me in an encounter that my character can not possibly survive, I'd yell at him and storm out. I understand you are trying to tell a story, but if that story causes my character to die "because the story demands it", I'm done. If my character dies because of my incompetence, that's a different story altogether, but I don't like losing, so I'd probably still be grumpy for a couple hours.

So, either there is some (possibly secret (probably hidden in plain sight, because I'm dumb like that)) way in which I can be victorious, or my DM is an asshole.

Conclusion: Forgath can somehow win this, or Herbert's a dick.

Forgath was warned that Bad Things would happen if he went after the GAP. He went after the GAP. Bad Things will happen.

[willpell]

Forgath was warned that Bad Things would happen if he went after the GAP. He went after the GAP. Bad Things will happen.

Unless of course THunt wants the moral of his story to be Screw Destiny, which is a quite legitimate trope. If I were writing it, I would almost certainly make all prophecies turn out to be bunkum, because I don't much care for the idea of our fates being written. With Saves a Fox we've seen the trope get averted and then reiterated, but it could get subverted again somehow; we really aren't sure what's written in stone yet.