December 2 Update: Twitter

[SpeaksManyLanguages]

I'm kind of a marginal person on this topic and "late to the party", but i would actually be okay even, if Tarol updated once per month with 4-6 fully-shaded pages.

Also: no reader ever can dictate schedule to an artist. Yeah, sure, there are those who complain. But the decision is only author's to make.

[Nerre]

I rather expected some thanksgiving pun than a twitter joke page, but on the other hand that would have required a full drawing. However, his comic, his speed. As long as he does not quit. Of 100+ comics I read, many just quit, pause for year, or did sidestep from the main plot so much, that it looks like they will never get back to it. I am just glad Thunt is not one of those and managed to get back to the other half of the main plot even after such a long time, without messing it up. And still at least 1 page per week, which is about average for most comics of such drawing quality. Respect for that. If it weren't for the forum, I might have forgot half of the goblin names until the comic finally returned to them.

[fyresentinel]

Any artist who puts a high enough level of detail into their work can understand how long it takes to generate a good art piece. Not only do you have to deal with the detailing itself, but in order to make everything look just the way you want it to look, you have to also double check for mistakes/inconsistencies. Many forget that the creator has to consider all aspects of an art piece, not just creating it start to finish.

When it comes to comic material, where, in addition to the artwork itself, there are character, storyline, and mood expectations, it takes even more time to make sure it comes out right.

Couple this with the fact that Thunt doesn't get paid for each comic page he posts here, and that it drains stamina to sit down for hours at a time, in addition to the other aspects of his life that he must focus on... Personally, I find the fact that he is even considering the "wants" of his readerbase in terms of the comic schedule is incredibly admirable, especially when so many other comic artists simply don't. So yeah... all of those who insist he post full detailed content more often, keep thinking that way, and watch when he breaks down from the headaches and stress he acquired from both the complaining and the workload, and us "free" readers don't get ANY content. Or we could just behave and appreciate what we get and enjoy what content Thunt is able to post at any given time...

[Starling]

On the other hand, can you name another comic that has the level of detail, shading, etc that mine does and is done entirely by one person?

Oh no, you didn't...

Okay, I'll be fair, I created the account immediately when I saw you making that declaration and I'll also be fair that I can't answer your request exactly but...
There's this comic called Drowtales that has the level of detail, shading and colors that surpass yours and they do it daily. Daily. Yeah, all right, it's not done by one person but two, one writes the story, draws the page drafts and does the lineart and the other person then does the coloring, shading and backgrounds. Yeah, it does not count because there's two of them but consider the fact that they do it 6 days a week. And they also struggle with getting a page out every day, except Sundays but they are late by half a day at most. To catch a breath, they use volunteering quest artists to draw a side stories to use as fillers after every chapter. And yes, they do find time to live as I'm certain you are doubting that by now.

And their subcomic Path to Power is done by a single person who pumps out two fully colored pages twice a week.

I haven't written all this to say that you should be that able or willing, I'm just saying you shouldn't make bold claims that quickly. I for one am perfectly okay with your update schedule and I can appreciate your hard work. (I read another web comic which is updated whenever the author feels like it, which lately is one page per 3 years or something. )



Anyhow, don't worry, I didn't create this account just to rub something in your face, I have been reading your Goblins for nearly 8 years by now and been reading the forum for past three years. Now that I have an account I will put it to use.

So, on topic: I like this kind of meta material like characters having Twitter accounts and bantering with each other. If you've seen Hellsing Ultimate Abridged, Alucard says "Hold on, I've got to tweet this." and if you look his account up on Twitter you'll get a lot laughs out of it and it still is being updated every once in a while along with few other character accounts.

Also, this sort of made me like Kore more.

[Brings Cupcakes]

I would have preferred an Altsplanation, but then, it's been Thanksgiving in the US (in Canada too?), and even if THunt may not have celebrated this, he is entitled to a few days off.

In Canada we have a shorter growing season, hence earlier harvest; we celebrate Thanksgiving in mid-October.

[Nerre]

On the other hand, can you name another comic that has the level of detail, shading, etc that mine does and is done entirely by one person?

Oh no, you didn't...

Where did you quote that from? Cannot find the post. Twitter?

Also I think at least the shading is done by another person, isn't it? I think that guy also posted in the forum and introduced himself. Don't remember his name.

I like girl genius from Phil & Kaja Foglio as much as I like goblins, I think they are one of the top comics this days. I think it is similar to Goblins speaking about dedication, quality and number of creators. One man and his wife doing the story and drawing, colors and shading, with only colorist helper:
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php

[Krulle]

On the other hand, can you name another comic that has the level of detail, shading, etc that mine does and is done entirely by one person?

Oh no, you didn't...

Where did you quote that from? Cannot find the post. Twitter?

This post. (middle of 3rd paragraph from the end)

Please, Nerre, learn to use search functions and in-browser search....
The last few days you had quite a few obvious questions where it would have taken less time to use google/forum search than typing a question and wait for an answer.

[Steelhaven]

@Starling:

While drowtales is VERY pretty artwork, to say it's just as detailed as Goblins is misleading. From my artists eye, it seems to me that it's actually a lot simpler, both in layout an drawing style.

Thunts artwork is more cartoony, and his coloring is a little sloppier, but overall his lineart and composition are much more dynamic. That's what I would honestly say is thunts biggest strength in his style, he has incredibly expressive and dynamic linework.

Were I trying to mimic, drowtales style would come out a lot quicker than goblins style.

@Nerre: Thunt had a colorist once upon a time. He started around the "it's a sunny day" biscuit arc. He was doing awesome, but he couldn't handle the pace and had to quit. There's probably more to the story than that, but that's what I recall.

[RedwoodElf]

Now, Now, we wouldn't want Thunt to decide to pull a Mike Richardson where, at the end of the original strip "Masque", he had every important character riding in a car, and the driver looks in the rear view mirror and Masque was in the back seat with a bomb. BOOM! (The End)

(For those not familiar with it, "Masque" was the orignal on which the later Dark horse comic "The Mask" was based - the story became too political, so the author just did a "Rocks fall, everybody dies" ending.)

[Kamos]

I never really understand when people complain about missing or late updates, especially when the defined schedule is so long to begin with. I mean, would it kill you to wait another day for the comic? Surely Goblins (or really any comic people complain about this) is not the only one you read, and if it is, then why not try and lessen the blow by looking for other comics to read in the meantime (such as this one, or this one, or this one)? Even if none of those are your cup of tea, surely there's another comic on the internet you can find that can help bridge the time span. Isn't waiting for the comic better than getting a crappy one? And as for fillers, considering the author did it for the fanbase, so they had something to look at, you should be happy he made it instead of just saying 'got nothing today'.

Sure filler isn't the comic itself but that's why it's called filler. Nearly every comic has filler at some point or another, it's just part of making a comic. Life doesn't exactly sit down and let you do this before picking up once you've finished, and life sometimes won't take 'no' for an answer. Not to mention you can read this for free.

(PS Anyone who likes drama and hilarity I recommend the middle one, it's a beautiful comic, and very rich with backstory!)

This is obviously my cocaine. If I don't get my fix I start jonesing and eat my left shoe or steal other peoples right shoes.

[Wolfie]

I love the off-beat filler pages. It gives me a look into THunt's sense of humor outside the comic. I love that Thaco is the quintessential "old man trying to use the new fangled contraption". "Did I use hashtag right?" had me


/gets on soap box

Regarding The Complaints: Put yourself, for a moment at least, into Thunt's shoes.

Do your job for 16+ hours per day with few breaks, eat your breakfast/lunch/dinner at the desk while you worked, plus try to juggle family time and other life things. Now top that with a small paycheck that depends almost entirely on people looking at your work. Now, TOP THAT with thousands* of people grumbling, complaining, and adding their $0.02 to criticize what you do, in very public ways (Twitter, the Forum, email, etc). Oh and while you're working you are also expected to interact with everyone using those public forums while not getting distracted from your work.

* Ok, thousands might be exaggerating a little bit, but you get the point

.... It might not be that bad all the time, but he is one person doing all of us a personal favor by continuing with putting out this comic that we all love. He doesn't have to put up with the flack he gets. But he does.

Personally, I believe THunt does an awesome job with his comic. If he's a bit late, oh well. I'll check back later. Since he's put up the Countdown Clock he's been much better about keeping to the schedule or updating it so it reflects what's going on, plus keeping us updated with why things are late. He doesn't have to do this and it show just how much of a Stand Up Guy he is.

Cut him some slack, let him work, sit back and enjoy the comic.

/gets off soapbox

[Sessine]

On the other hand, can you name another comic that has the level of detail, shading, etc that mine does and is done entirely by one person?

Oh no, you didn't...

I, too, blinked when I saw that. I was going to let it go, but... yes, actually, I can. I can name such a webcomic. This comic (also referenced earlier in this thread) is written, drawn, coloured, and shaded by one person. She updates three times a week like clockwork, maintains a 20-50 page buffer, interacts daily with her readers, and also manages to earn her living with graphic design jobs. She sometimes posts multiple pages when the story demands it. She has a policy of taking an announced break at the end of each chapter to refill her buffer.

The fact that one person is amazing and deserves a huge amount of respect for what he/she is doing, should not be taken as a criticism of other people who are also amazing and wonderful. Thunt is great. I second pretty much everything that napslikecat just wrote.

[Jotunheim]

On the other hand, can you name another comic that has the level of detail, shading, etc that mine does and is done entirely by one person?

I've heard that argument from you before, Thunt, and it's just not a good one. Comics with as much or more detail as goblins that are or were done by one person on a regular or semi regular update schedule (just off the top of my head):
Inverloch
Phoenix Requiem
Commissioned Comic
Commedity
Sunstone
Finders Keepers
Skin Deep (not off the top of my head, but mentioned by one of the folks in the chatroom)
Unsounded (Same)

And in all likelyhood there are many more that just aren't popping into my head atm.

Your comic is very detailed, and well drawn, but it is not unique in being so and being done by one person, and claiming that it is kinda seems like devaluing the work of these other people. Heck, I can't recall Commissioned ever missing a single update.

[SGTdude]

I have 2 things to say:
1) yes it is a crappy argument. If it were the only thing THunt said, it would have been a really sucky response. But it wasnt the only thing he said, and what you quoted came at the end of basically defending his comic from needless assault (which he shouldn't have to do anyways). I give him a pass on this one even though what Jotun says may be true.

2) The reason that THunt's comic is so great is because: its free, its an awesome story, and he has personally seen to making a great community where fans are not just annoying gnats to be appeased whenever he feels like, but instead are almost real life friends and a welcomed part of his life. Thats why Goblins is so great, because THunt has tried very hard to personally make sure it is so.

I think he deserves more credit that he gets, but then what do you expect from the internet I suppose?

[scienceboyroy]

I'm really tired, so I'll probably come across as an offensive troll, but I don't mean it that way. I'm just trying to be honest, but I'll probably only manage to be abrasive...

I know I may be in the minority, but I don't care if it isn't perfectly shaded. The artwork here is top-notch, yes, but that's not what draws me in. It's the story. I want to know what happens next, and I usually have to wait a week or so before any real developments... develop.

And let's take a quick look at that. In the past week and a half, we've had two non-filler comics, which essentially showed the two parties fighting. In the first one, we learn that Forgath's beard is now impervious when Thaco tries to slit his throat. In the second one, Minmax and Complains debate whether or not Minmax knows what loss is, and as they clash, Fumbles timidly plinks Minmax on the head.

And then, some 5 days later, the filler, along with the notification that it'll be another 4 days before anything else is posted.

Sometimes, quantity is important. You leave us in suspense for so long, but then you're annoyed when tensions run high. I can understand where you're coming from, but you have to remember that many of these comics have been very emotionally charged. You wound us up with Chief and abandoned the GAP for three years. You killed off Klik and shifted away from the Dies Horribly fork. Now, following all the recent Kinmax drama, we have a 9-day period with no substantial updates, and the first post I've seen that expressed displeasure (and while clearly frustrated, the author didn't seem excessively rude) immediately gets ridiculed by fans and criticized by the author himself for expressing an opinion on the matter.


One last thing...

Wasn't it Thunt himself who -- not too long ago -- said that he felt a once-a-week schedule was *too slow* to move the story along?

------

If I sound reasonable so far, you can stop reading. Seriously, I'll probably just get worse from here, and I'd rather leave you with a good impression. So if you still have one, keep it and stop reading. Otherwise...

It can be said that since we read the comic for free, we shouldn't get impatient and complain about wanting the next one sooner, no matter how suspenseful it gets. But then I imagine two scenarios that would probably be more appropriately chosen if I'd gotten more sleep:
1. I like breathing. Air is cool. But if I had to breathe through a straw, I wouldn't be very happy about that. I'd be like, "Dude! Give me a bigger straw or something, this isn't cool!" And then whoever I was talking to would be like, "Hey, you know what? You're breathing this air FOR FREE, so I don't want to hear it from you, whiner. If you don't like it, stop breathing it."
Clearly, the problem with this one is that air is much more abundant and there are *many* trees working together to produce it; not just one tree for everyone. I guess Thunt would be the tree.
2. If I'm driving down the road and realize that I have a slow leak in my tire such that my tire is low and I need to refill it somewhat urgently, I would be happy to come upon a gas station with a "FREE AIR" sign. I always hate the ones where you put in your $0.75 (which is a very odd amount), realize the hose is horribly tangled, and finally get it on your tire just as it shuts off and you have to dig in the seats for more quarters or something... But I digress.
After you fiddle with the free air compressor for a bit, you ask the attendant, "Hey, I think something's wrong with your air compressor. It only goes up to 10 PSI." He looks at you incredulously, saying, "Hey, that's high-quality air! And we give it to you FOR FREE! You should be grateful. I mean, I'm the only one working here, and we still give you this service even though you haven't even bought anything." The fact remains, 10 PSI doesn't satisfy, even though it's both high-quality AND free.

[RocketScientist]

2. If I'm driving down the road and realize that I have a slow leak in my tire such that my tire is low and I need to refill it somewhat urgently, I would be happy to come upon a gas station with a "FREE AIR" sign. I always hate the ones where you put in your $0.75 (which is a very odd amount), realize the hose is horribly tangled, and finally get it on your tire just as it shuts off and you have to dig in the seats for more quarters or something... But I digress.
After you fiddle with the free air compressor for a bit, you ask the attendant, "Hey, I think something's wrong with your air compressor. It only goes up to 10 PSI." He looks at you incredulously, saying, "Hey, that's high-quality air! And we give it to you FOR FREE! You should be grateful. I mean, I'm the only one working here, and we still give you this service even though you haven't even bought anything." The fact remains, 10 PSI doesn't satisfy, even though it's both high-quality AND free.

Wait, what would the guy say where you live? Because around here you'd get "oh well. Sorry." What you wouldn't be getting is free air no matter how long you stood there and complained. In fact, I'd wager you'd get the same response if it were a not-free air compressor. That's the way it is. Maybe things will change eventually, but right now you're pretty much wasting everybody's time, including your own, by sitting around and complaining at the gas station.

[napslikecat]

Yes and to all the arguments above about free air...
Air in your tire can be considered a necessity. Air in your nostril is a necessity. Comics are a luxury.

I just glanced a bunch of the comics Jotunheim listed. And taking random samplings, compared to random Goblins samplings, we have more detail, and/or more panels per page for Goblins, different art styles... Believe me, I'd love Goblins to update daily too. But to criticize the author that he doesn't update precisely like someone else, go read that other comic. Not to mention that a few of those comics are finished and don't update anymore, or got abandoned, and few have been going as long as this one. It's easy to throw out names there, but without details even.. that's just plain lazy.

Thunt's argument stands. You're like the spectator who boos a marathon runner because he came in 4th and missed a medal, calling him slow. I mean, there's 3 runners in that race faster than him so he must be out of shape. Plus the 100m sprinters run faster than he does, and the triathletes are good at swimming and cycling too while he can only run, and you know all this because you sit on your couch all day watching sports.

And if you really want speed, there's artists like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVyDuJrRot4
This took 10 minutes, I've seen some done in under 60 seconds. Maybe Thunt should switch art styles to this, and update 3-5 times a day. I mean speed is everything, right?

And yes, quantity is important. Which is why Thunt has so many panels per page. Just looking at the last update, I see at least 3 days worth of comics in 1 update, if not more. This style works well with his comic, the price is longer delays between updates. Doing simple math this would mean 4.2 updates a week on a regular sized comic. Fillers aside, I don't see how you can complain about output like that.

[Changes_everything]

You know what that snowboard paintbrush dude, whose video was edited to 10 minutes anyway, cannot do? He can't create Goblins.

Thunt certainly could be faster, we've seen him speed drawing online. But after some years of following this comic, having sighed myself a lot about missed deadlines and whatnot, I've come to this conclusion:

It's all about what speed the artist feels comfortable at. Because it's art, not the production of, say, technical drawing. Art is an individual thing by definition, it may take time, sometimes more than you like maybe, but there it is. I wouldn't want Thunt to sacrifice too much to people's update greed.

[Liesmith]

The complaints about the new schedule are especially chuckleworthy to me...with the new schedule, Tarol has had to push the clock back a few hours for several updates, and only had a full-day delay once that I can remember offhand. This is compared to the old schedule, where he frequently had multi-day delays, or entirely skipped updates because the pace was too intense to allow any intrusion from life.

If your favorite webcomic's update is delayed of several hours and that sends you into a tizzy, I suggest you go watch some episodes of MST3k, then come back and try again (admittedly, that's my solution to everything).

And I think the best metaphor for Tarol's situation is that of a street musician who tends to show up once a week to play some lovely music for tips. Sometimes he gets rained out, and sometimes he just can't make it for personal reasons, and he often doesn't show up exactly at 3pm as he intended. Most people don't mind, because he's not an employee and he's providing free goodness. Other folks tipped him once, and now feel entitled to their weekly serenade. Still other folks have never tipped, and still feel they're owed a concrete schedule because a musician is nothing more than a particularly finicky iPod, in their eyes.

[Nerre]

Please, Nerre, learn to use search functions and in-browser search....

Answer in spoiler since the main essence of my post is something else:

► Show Spoiler

I tried to use it, but to be honest, the search function in the forum sucks. If you use a "too common" word, it does not even allow you to search. If you use a longer part like "can you name another comic" it does not allow a search for the whole text block using "" or let out words using - like in a browser, it looks for every single word and spit out nearly all posts in this thread. I found Thunts post on page 2, but it was not the one quoted. Thunt was mentioned in more than every second post. I already asked the admins a few times if it could be changed, but I got no positive response, therefore I started to care less about looking for things properly. I know how to properly use browser search, but the browser cannot search other pages of a thread let alone other threads.
I know some people "live" in the forum and seem to read and remember every post, lurk for comic updates, but I think it is close to arrogance to expect everybody to spend the same effort into it. If you don't want to answer it, ok, but don't blame people for asking or just hanging around with knowing less. People should be allowed to just jump on the bandwagon (did I get the idiom right?) if they are not in the mood to read every single post or just don't have the time for it. The forum is for everybody and not just the hardcore-users. Some just use it (or parts of it) casually.

About the complaint and Thunts reaction:
I think it is natural that somebody wants appreciation for his work, no matter if there is somebody better or not, if he did it on his own or if he got help. If you like it, you should show appreciation, and not discuss it like "But I like this more than yours, so you will get a bit less appreciation, sorry". I think everybody has the right for advertisement, as long it does not end in massive fishing for attention/compliments, but I cannot see that Thunt did this here. He just used the quoted sentence to defend himself against a complaint which made him angry. I can understand that the artist is in the focus much more than most people can imagine, so it is much more pressure than people think. If one writes "I wish I would get the next update quicker" it is normally a sign of appreciation, and the artist should take it for it. Okay, it can annoy you if you got a bad day or people put too much complaint into it, but you also should keep in mind that people longing for more of your work is one of the highest signs of appreciation. But the longing also should come with respect.

It is okay to write "Come on Thunt, hurry, I want more of that story!", but not if you accuse him of delaying it all the time and that his new schedule is a joke.

Extrabigmehdi did write his post disrespectfully in my eyes. I think Thunt also did a bit of overreact, but I can understand his point of view. Maybe that post was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

I like comics that end a story arc and do not keep overextending it all the time, so I am glad we just returned back to the original goblins. I already bought some books of other comics that ended to support the author. For example, I just bought both volumes of Remind and Keepers of the maser. I will do this for Goblins too when the main story arc is done (don't feel urged to do it because me, Thunt) and also for the humanoid comic and girl genious. I just don't like having a half story in my book shelf.

[Jotunheim]

Thunt's problem isn't so much that he's slow, but he has steadily added more detail to the comic as he's grown faster over the years, meaning that the end result is that the speed is pretty much the same it's ever been. And yes, I do agree that the "Rabble rabble, update moar" stuff is kinda needless and tiresome and in a lot of cases just trolling. My reaction was mainly due to having seen Thunt make that argument before, and it dosn't hold water because A. the other comics listed above, and B. Danielle does some of the flats at times. Goblins is a great story, and a good comic, but, to me, it's just that.

[Sleeping Bear]

If this page was actually canon...

[Liesmith]

Thunt's problem isn't so much that he's slow, but he has steadily added more detail to the comic as he's grown faster over the years, meaning that the end result is that the speed is pretty much the same it's ever been. And yes, I do agree that the "Rabble rabble, update moar" stuff is kinda needless and tiresome and in a lot of cases just trolling. My reaction was mainly due to having seen Thunt make that argument before, and it dosn't hold water because A. the other comics listed above, and B. Danielle does some of the flats at times. Goblins is a great story, and a good comic, but, to me, it's just that.

The problem is that Thunt made what argument before? That his speed has remained the same because he's added detail? Isn't that the very argument you're making? Color me confused.

[Jotunheim]

The "Name one other comic that has the same level of detail shading etc. that is done by one person" as an argument against "You're late rabble rabble" folks.

[Gryphonic]

I'll try and organize my thoughts on the update debate, but they loop into each other.
Comparisons to other comics: all of those that I am personally familiar with have shown the same faults being complained about in Goblins; delays and filler pages. Life happens to artists, the same as any of us. Finder's Keepers was especially ironic there; several long delays followed by closure. Most particularly, Drowtales' art is prettier at a glance, but that's mostly photoshop blending and the lineart under it is usually deceptively simple. if Goblins pages were blown up or DT ones shrunk down I imagine it would break even a lot of the time. DT is at heart manga, which is stylized, regularized art, and therefore faster to produce. When DT has a lot of lines, they're often of non-organic shapes, and drawing flesh and muscle expressively is a lot more frustrating as I'm sure Thunt can attest. That they frequently use guest artists for short story arcs means *gasp* they aren't untiring little art machines. They take breaks.
As naps said, quantity, on Goblins, is a large page every few days instead of a few panels every or every other day.

Here's where it's all a loop in my mind; art/pacing/story. I apologize for not ordering the next sentences well.

THunt puts a lot of time and work into each page. We see his results because the forums can get hung up for days discussing the nuances of dialogue or non-verbal details in the artwork. That takes time to create, and do so consistently - consistently in that what we point at and theorize about isn't just in our heads; it's really there, and spanning months and years of real-time creation. We enjoy having material to chew over for days, and that takes more work than rendering only the action that is happening. Other comics mostly follow the speed priority, and do we stare at those pages and discuss them nearly as much? No, because the same content is broken down into smaller chunks, if it's there at all. We look at the page, possibly click back to check yesterday's again, and then move on. THunt spends more time on this, we spend more time on this, seems fair all around.

I'll use Drowtales as the counter example since that's what Starling held up and it's a useful comparison. It has plenty of quantity, put out by two (and for a while three) people, but Drowtales has variable quality, sometimes of art but more of plot - there's been a lot of meh on the forums over the last arc, almost two - except for those who are having their character cameos in the spotlight. The story quality in the eyes of many others starts dropping whenever the artists make accommodations to their readers.... because that's outside interference in the artists' vision and plan. And when we on the forums start wanting THunt to do this or that - yes, I have things I'd like to see myself, but I won't try to ask - we're wanting him to change the very thing that we've gotten hooked on. We may not be happy about this event or that, and be vocal about it, but he's made us care. If we didn't have much investment in the story, we'd just say 'meh' and click to the next comic in our daily/weekly roundup. And what he's made us care about is all his own creation. I don't presume to mess with that when there's so much undiscovered.


ETA: I look at it the same way I do when a book I've been impatient for is delayed. Even if there was a nasty cliffhanger end to the previous book (Changes/Ghost Story - dammit, Jim Butcher!) I know I'd rather have a GOOD follow-up than a timely one.