"Timey Wimey Wibbly Wobbly"

[SGTdude]

Why this comic is (not) possible


Now before all of the zealous acolytes begin flaming me with their "Thou shalt not defile the Temple of THunt," I have three things to say.

1) this is THunt's comic, he can do whatever he wants. Even if means violating the laws of time as we (and apparently the characters within the strip) understand them.
2) I am writing from a position of thorough research (which many of the older posters like Seesamoose will know) and am not throwing out wild speculation.
3) if you read NOTHING ELSE in this post, please read my summation paragraph.

In fairness, I will present both sides of the argument briefly (no i will not be completely recreating the timeline in this thread) in the hopes that someone, even THunt, can answer how this strip is possible.

Because honestly its not from my understanding of the timeline which, as some will remember, was very impartial and factual.

NOT POSSIBLE
Even if we believe that goblins is just a D&D game with people playing all the characters, the observance of the passage of time is a real part of the setting. It is recognized by so many characters the real challenge would be finding someone in the strip who does NOT seem aware of the passage of time. Time, unless otherwise stated, follows the normal rules. It has not been stated that time is a wibbly wobbly plaything, so we must logically conclude it moves forward.

In order for MM to arrive in front of Names, laws of time had to be broken (i.e. time travel) for the following brief reasons:
- According the observance of time in the comic, the strips featuring Minmax and Forgath were never consistently synced with the Goblins adventuring party. That means that one group was always further ahead in time than the other, according to the events depicted in the comic. This means that in order for them to meet, either time must pass for one and not the other, or time travel must occur.
- At the time that Minmax and Forgath entered the Maze of Many, we were clearly told, time effectively froze for them. If they could have walked out the same way they came in, any observer who had seen them enter would have seen them exit instantaneously even though from the perspective of the crew much time had passed. This means no time can pass for them by exiting the Maze of Many.
- The jade teapot does promise to take people anywhere, so getting to the goblins is no challenge of the imagination. However it would carry them out of the maze of many returning them to their own timeline, again moments after they first entered, meaning no time has passed.
- The two parties were separated by at least one day if not two by a very fair and fact-based accounting. So that means in order for them to meet up, those days have to become meaningless, i.e. time travel.

SOLUTIONS
(If it seems like I am breaking established reality in the comic, its because I am. I see no other solution unless THunt wants to offer one, which he doesnt have to: see my first comment)
- If the goblins were further in the past than minmax (i honestly cant remember who was in the past and who was in the future): the maze of many doesn't actually freze time. It just passes very slowly. This means that the goblins could have essentially "caught" up to the other group while they were in the maze.
- If the goblins were in the future: the jade teapot takes you to the place you want and perhaps when you want, although that is a bad wording. The jade teapot sees not only where you want to go but why and puts you in that place at the ideal time to fulfill the desire the user has.

Problems with the solutions:
- This is not how the maze works, and it was explained very clearly.
- There is literally nothing about the Jade teapot that indicates it should function outside the laws of time, and I would think that would be part of the fan-service description we received regarding its function. I mean as we heard it, its a teleporter. As the solution above demands, its basically a wish granter.


SUMMATION
While I could go back and reread every strip multiple times, again, and write up the timeline for this comic, again, I really dont want to unless its absolutely necessary. The time problem is easy enough to solve here if time passes. The major problem is that there is nothing in the comic to build upon the hypothesis that "time passed" and the goblins caught up (im pretty sure they were behind the other group in time), so they might as well be dragons wearing goblin costumes and who cares? Well, I do because I love this comic. I have followed it since just before it turned color, for the first time. I have been active in the old forums and even in the streaming until military life and other things got in the way. I mean CRAP! I even got on stream with THunt when our base was taking a rocket attack. So, yeah, Im a loyal fan. I did a timeline of the comic very carefully and very objectively to better understand what is happening when. The problem is (as my memory is returning to me) that when the Goblins reach Kore and fight with him Minmax isnt even in the well yet. If i remember right they were camping the night before they entered the maze. So for him to appear in front of the goblins means he is literally existing in two places in that realm at once. If this is time travel, then fine. If time can't be broken, then the comic has a problem.

Maybe i need to do the timeline again so everyone can judge for themselves. But I dont want trouble. I just want to know how the world that THunt has masterfully created works. So you tell me (you being THunt or the community either one): flame this thread and I will know that the community doesn't care how the world of the comic works, just that it does; tell me you seriously want to see my proof and I will recreate the timeline for this comic to be subjected to peer review. Tell me a way that the comic reasonably can work within the limitations of time and I will believe it.

Thanks

Thanks

[scienceboyroy]

I don't know the timeline, but what if the freezing of time in the Maze of Many didn't include the one time in which the party was successful?

Or alternatively, what if travel via Jade Teapot isn't instantaneous? What if, like the Willy Wonka version, it takes some (albeit relatively small) amount of time to cross the distance?

Again, I don't know the timeline, so I don't know if either of these would explain any of it. And I don't remember the rules of time passage in the Maze of Many, though now that I think about it, I wonder how anybody would know these things about it. How many other adventuring parties have faced nigh-infinite hordes of their alternate selves within its walls? Would such a thing even be possible? But I digress.

[SGTdude]

Interesting point Roy, so I will address them while waiting on the will of the author or the community.

1: Even if we consider the successful run being the only time that counts (I dont think the MoM works this way but I would have to review the relevant strips to be sure) the problem is that FMK is ahead of GAP. So literally while MM is standing on the bridge with Forgath, he is ALSO camping with FMK outside of the MoM. He went backwards in time. But I would have to present the timeline to prove that. But the more important point is that the successful run would have moved them further ahead in time, not back. And this solution only works if GAP was ahead of FMK on the timeline (which the could have been, but I dont think so. I dont have a copy of the timeline to review and would have to recreate it, which I will only do under conditions stated above).

2: I can buy this. If the teapot does take time, and FMK is ahead of GAP, I can almost see this being a reasonable possibility. The problem is I think they were about 12-18hrs ahead on the timeline. So its a stretch, but still a possibility.

I appreciate the input and will just say the reason I did the timeline in the first place is because it was immune to character perspective. It didnt matter what rules they did/did not know, it just worked the way it always works unless otherwise stated (like in MoM). So I dont think the character's understanding of time changes anything enough to "fix the problem."

If there is one.

[ChuckDaRighteous]

Maybe I missed something but I saw no definitive proof the timeline is displaced. It may seem that way because the GAP engaging Kore was shown before FMK entering the maze, but I saw them as happening simultaneously. Since unless Thunt showed half the panels of each on each page (which would either be confusing or forboding), He couldn't show them happening simultaneously. Kore attacks as Minmax is trapped in the treasure plant, Fumbles turns back as Minmax contemplates pissing on the giant sword, FM show up as they're entering the maze. They're just separated into individual continuous plot lines instead of disrupted intertwined plot lines.

[SGTdude]

The problem starts when GAP and FMK leave the goblin village. At that point they separate from eachother on the timeline and never sync up again. So when you view FMK and GAP thoughout the comic, while you think you are viewing simultaneous events, you are, in reality, viewing events that are absolutely no less than several hours apart from eachother in respect to what time it is in THunt world. In order for these groups to then meet up, there must be some literary/visual/etc device to answer for the missing time.

or its time travel.

[HuntsAPanda]

In a movie, things often happen simultaneously, but they are not shown that way.

Time taken to travel is usually not included as there is no meaningful dialogue.

It is not unreasonable to assume that Thunt is doing this as well.

If you take out any time spent in the MoM, there is not a huge difference in time spent showing us the GAP and time spent with FMK, so when you add any traveling time, the timeline synchronizes.

[ForgetsOldName]

The problem starts when GAP and FMK leave the goblin village. At that point they separate from eachother on the timeline and never sync up again. So when you view FMK and GAP thoughout the comic, while you think you are viewing simultaneous events, you are, in reality, viewing events that are absolutely no less than several hours apart from eachother in respect to what time it is in THunt world. In order for these groups to then meet up, there must be some literary/visual/etc device to answer for the missing time.

or its time travel.

This.

You can prove this to yourself simply by observing that the last time we saw the GAP Forgath and Minmax were leaving the Maze of Many. Then we saw them consulting with Kin and eventually entering the Maze, i.e., things that took place earlier were shown later.

This is common in fiction. It has to be because whenever you have two groups doing something at the same time you don't normally show both of them on a split screen or whatever. You show one half, then the other, and you arrange it for literary merit.

[SGTdude]

This would seem to be true. However because of the early de-synchronizing of GAP/FMK we were shown things in the comic (sometimes in the same strip) which seemed to be occurring simultaneously but, because of the previously given information about how the timeline was going, could not possibly be happening at the same time.

To put it more simply, you can't solve the problem by just looking at when we last saw GAP and FMK (especially since when last saw them both GAP was at a time that can clearly be called "sunset" and FMK was clearly in the middle portion of the day). In order to solve this problem you have to go to its source and work forward. The problem started when GAP left the village and FM-K (cuz she wasnt in the strip yet) was still there.

But we all digress. The point being raised is: how can FMK travel to when GAP is, when they are separated by no less than 12hrs in my most objective estimations? How is this possible? I think the answer should come in one of three forms:
1) its not, but we love the comic, so who cares. Dear THunt: MOAR PLZ!!!!
2) it is possible by this method right here...
3) there is not enough information to solve the problem, i.e. lets all review the timeline.

While I obviously have an interest in the latter, my loyalty demands I answer the former. But yet my curiousity has been hopelessly piqued for....almost 3 years now. I never expected this comic to be written because it was impossible. The mystery guest on the bridge could be anybody, except somebody from FMK. Now that it is FM-K, I want to know how THunt pulled this magic act of bending time if not breaking it. Cuz i want to know how THunt world works.

PS - I would love to hear from one of the old dogs who actually read the original timeline.

[SGTdude]

Speaking of which: I can't believe it still exists. I want to review and revise it before posting it (with consent of course) but since I can't keep you from clicking on a link:


EDIT: after a very brief review of my analysis I can say that there seems to only be a few hours of separation between GAP and FMK. The problem is that FMK is still a few hours ahead of GAP and still would have had to go back in time. If the timeline is accurate. Im going to do a more thorough review and would even do more analysis before reposting it officially here though.

2nd edit: I have removed the link because i would like a chance to review, and ammend if necessary, the timeline for accuracy before posting.

[LoneStarNorth]

Extremely easy answer: a few days went by in between scenes for both groups which were not explicitly refered to because nothing of particular note happened during that time. Getting from Brassmoon to the Dragon's Maw, getting from Brassmoon to the Maze, etc.

[SGTdude]

Even Easier answer: No.

Not only is there no visible indication of these couple days passing, there is no reference to those days passing (like "man Ears, that was a long three day hike"). If we assume time is synchronized just because it appears to be so now, and then apply that same reasoning through the rest of the comic systematically from the begninning it creates lots of chaos.

I covered times traveled between the various locales in the original timeline. The question I am wondering now is this:

Even if Minmax and Forgath are not in front of GAP in the timeline (which I don't honestly believe based on facts from the comic) and they are instead behind GAP (FMK entered MoM during the day, GAP fought Kore and are on the bridge now at sunset), we still have FMK jumping forward a few hours in time after they left the MoM (which is supposed to return people to the moment just after they stepped in).

Granted this is more likely if FMK is further back than GAP and actually possible for an explanation, almost, but still requires there be some explanation for where those few hours went. If FMK was not in the past behind GAP. Which they are not. So assuming the comic is not wrong or mistaken, how did this happen?

Edit: 2 questions to prompt discussion
1) do we know for sure that when you exit the MoM, even as the winner, that it kicks you out right after you went in? (Im not sure whether this is correct or not)
2) do we know how the jade teapot works really? Is it just teleportation? Does it destroy you and remake you someplace else? What do we know for sure?

[BuildsLegos]

)1 The opening poster's assumptions about the timeline have already been disproven by Chuck Da especially.
)2 I'm sure the teleportation spell took a few hours to float from the giant sword to the bridge.
)3 After all, have you SEEN the map? That's a lot of ground to cover!

[Davis8488]

One theory is that when you exit the maze you do at a place in time after you entered equal to the length of your successful run. This would prevent a party which took 20 years to complete the maze from exiting the same day as they entered. (If you exited the same time as you entered someone could send in a group of children to be raised in the maze, spawning instant soldiers.)

If you account for this, do the timelines add up?

[AntMac]

Time, unless otherwise stated, follows the normal rules. It has not been stated that time is a wibbly wobbly plaything, so we must logically conclude it moves forward.

I am certainly not disagreeing with your posts entire analysis of the comic. I just want to point something out about this last sentence. When Dr Who explains some seeming paradox that some other character points out, not everyone in London hears his explanation. And yet, in the context of the internal logic of the show in fact we viewers then go on with the idea that for everyone in the show, events have now been explained as "subjective to" wibbly-wobbly . . . timey-wimey . . . stuff.

Maybe someone else* explained all this to someone else**, just out of our hearing?.

* Herbert?.
** The players?.

[RedwoodElf]

We have never seen either party "Camp for the night" - we cannot, however, conclude that this means that all the events which have occurred to GAP and FMK occurred in one day. The only time characters have slept "on camera" was SKGD, once in the slave tent, and once to give Dies' arm the opportunity to dump the key/knife down the chasm. That, however, is irrelevant, since we don't know if the Dies party is ahead, behind, or in sync with the rest.

(Edit: OK, so FMK "made camp" at least once, after the party, but that doesn't mean the GAP didn't also do so)

From the events taking place in the background of the scene where Forgath and Minmax get into brassmoon, it looks like it's probably later the same day as the Battle of Wonder, or the next morning. Presumably, after Kin's birthday party, they went straight to the dungeon, since Kin had researched it's location and could take them straight there, while the Goblins probably had to search around a bit to find the entrance to the other dungeon.

[Gryphonic]

My theory has been covered in parts by Davis, Lonestar, Panda, Chuck, etc. THunt followed the GAP to a pivotal moment where the two parties meet, and then went back and showed us how the other side got there.
- SGT, you said you accounted for the time spent traveling by both parties. How? The pages don't show an in-world clock or even a calendar for reference. We can be sure that FM got to Brassmoon after the GAP, because the talking wall says so. The goblins even took a shortcut to get there. So FMK didn't start toward the Maze until after the goblins were headed home.*
( @ RedwoodElf: I think it would take more than a day to dismantle a several-stories-tall statue to knee-high, but there's no proof either way.)

We have never seen either party "Camp for the night" - we cannot, however, conclude that this means that all the events which have occurred to GAP and FMK occurred in one day.

Not only is there no visible indication of these couple days passing, there is no reference to those days passing (like "man Ears, that was a long three day hike").

We've seen a lot of time passing in the comic. Complains said it was a day or two just to the Swamp http://www.goblinscomic.org/03182006/. Fumbles disappeared while they slept after that, discovered in the morning http://www.goblinscomic.org/05012006/. They fought the yellow mush creeper at night, then under the heading of "Later" we saw Fumbles reaching Brassmoon in daylight http://www.goblinscomic.org/08182006/. The Gap entered Brassmoon at night again http://www.goblinscomic.org/11262006/, it was day when they found the execution notice, and the Battle of Wonder was the next morning http://www.goblinscomic.org/01242008/. (Looking at the map, if it took three nights to get from near the warcamp to Brassmoon, distances suggest that from Brassmoon to the Maw is nearly is far, but I'm not going to count an estimate.) That's explicitly 4 nights passing for the GAP before this page, and we haven't been shown as many for FM(K), so Thunt is not showing every party going through every 24 hour period. We don't know if he's skipped drawing any.

- The Maze 'exists outside of time' but 'the success exists for us.' Time passes within the MoM between resets. Kin specifically says the reset happens after the winners are ported out, and time is erased for everyone except the winners (http://www.goblinscomic.org/02112011-4/). Normally parties leave by the red circle, which is part of the Maze's magic itself and may or may not return them to instant of entry. But FM left by 'teaport' (couldn't resist) and so jumped out at the end of their run, which may lasted hours or days of local time.

In short, I see no way to compare timelines enough to be certain of days between FMK and GAP right now, much less hours.

Though that last point brings up something else curious. If Kin somehow leaves by red circle, and is returned to her moment of entry as some readers assume the Maze does for the winners, then she will be skewed in time compared to the others.


*Which is a very long way from their warcamp! I assumed till I saw the map they would build it somewhat near the village, in case the village needed protecting. But it's halfway across the realm.

[LAYF]

Hmm.. I see no problem:

Goblins; just after escape from Brassmoon, lets call this day 0, and it looks like evening:
http://www.goblinscomic.org/10232009/

MM + FG enter city: Note the demon foot being moved from after the battle, so same day I'd asume. day 0
http://www.goblinscomic.org/11242009/

MM+ Forgath escapes with Kin, no indication of this being a new day as its still high light outside when GS is thrown through the window. day 0
http://www.goblinscomic.org/04132010/

FMK just escaped, still no day swap indication: Day 0
http://www.goblinscomic.org/04272010/

FMK "We are making camb" Day 0, evening
http://www.goblinscomic.org/05312010/

FMK MM walks away to make kins birthdayparty, note whne kin awakes, its evening, still day 0.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/09102010/



Back to goblins:
The first strip, note the horizont light, some asume this to be evening light, others morning ligth on; day +1 morning or evening
http://www.goblinscomic.org/10122010-3/

(Note, this si the same time all the way until "Hi names, remember me": Day +1 morning or evening
http://www.goblinscomic.org/01212011-2/


BACK TO FMK:
This is the first after theire camb, Not the sun in the horizont, so its safe to asume its either morning or evening, and its day +1: Day +1 morning or evening
http://www.goblinscomic.org/01252011-2/

The entrence to MOM, no time except "for hours uphill" have passed, so still safe to asueme day +1, but there is still a cleare diffrence between the lightin oin the horizont.
so probaly more evening than morning: Day +1 evening
http://www.goblinscomic.org/02012011/

FMK enter the MOM, same time:
http://www.goblinscomic.org/02082011-2/



My conclusion, there is no eveidence that the FMK do not enter the MoM at the same time as the GAP runs from kore.
there are on hte other hand good evidence to support that both ocurenece happens at either sun rise OR sundown.

I see no problem with concluding that all happens at sun down 1 day after the brassmoon "attack"


that is all just my 2 cents ofcause!

[Nerre]

Some of you seem to presume that every travel only costs 1 day or less. In games I played so far we sometimes traveled for weeks, so I see no reason why there should be a time conflict, cause the groups could have traveled for a different amount of time between the scenes. I neither think the entrance to the maze of many nor the place were the goblins are now are remotely close to Brassmon. Typically GMs keep some distance between places, so they can add locations later. Take a look at the map from Thunt (not sure which update), it does not look like everything is so close together that it only takes 1 day to travel. The Maze looks close and they only had to pass plains/forest, while the place the goblins went through (Is it Depths of dragon's maw?) is about 3 times as far, with some mountains and a hill between. More if it is another dungeon they went for.

[SGTdude]

Nerre, thanks for posting the map. It will be useful as we get further into this.

Antmac, I had considered this, but it basically puts the comic into the "THunt can do whatever he wants" category. While I am not against following that, I dont like it cuz it suggests that there are no rules (i.e. -10 = dead unless magically resurrected somehow).

Gryphonic, thanks for posting the clarification about the Maze. I couldn't remember how that worked. I do wonder also how this works for FM-K because they didnt leave by the red circle. But that isnt really the core issue anyways, so I'm ignoring it for now.


There seems to be alot of doubt as to the validity of my original timeline. So, and partly because Looks posted a very short one, I would like to put my findings in regards to the timeline for review. The two things I say before doing so though are: 1) Im not trying to create a heated argument about the comic, I just want to take a careful analytic look at what happened. 2) I have to go to work, and putting the timeline up will take me just a little while. So if people want to see my evidence I just ask for a little bit of patience (a day or two tops) and I will present everything I have found relating to time in the comic. I would want to do so in a different thread and in a format that both presents the information for all to view and sets up conditions for good discussion and evaluation of the relevant strips and time in the comic.

As long there is an interest in pursuing this intelligently for the sake of understanding what happened in the comic, I will go forward. But if the community (especially mods) think this would just create more strife, then I will forgo doing it.

Let me know.

[RedwoodElf]

The main problem with the map is, the Goblins are STILL WET from crossing the river when Kore attacks (Ears hasn't even picked the axe back up yet), and they're RIGHT at the entrance to the dungeon. If the map is to be believed, the dungeon is at least one "map inch" from the river. Either the map is highly inaccurate (Given the state of medieval cartography, not impossible) or each inch on the map is "A couple of meele rounds of running"

[ChuckDaRighteous]

Not only is there no visible indication of these couple days passing, there is no reference to those days passing (like "man Ears, that was a long three day hike").

The lack of proof that time has passed is not proof that time didn't pass. Not everything is one right after the other unless otherwise stated. The fact of the matter is there is no indication how much time has passed one way or the other in the gaps between the action. So while no one can definitively say how much time has passed (except Thunt), we can say that the timelines lining up would be the most logical.

[SGTdude]

well determining what is "most logical" is honestly a matter of opinion. However, I think there is enough information in the whole comic to present certain facts which are basically unarguable to establish a rough timeline. The trouble is those soft middle spots where certain conclusions must be made based on the information given. Because we are human, those conclusions will be made differently. Taking the most conservative approach is how I reached the conclusions I made, but I will save that for when I present the timeline findings.

Redwood - while I like the map, I have wondered about seeming inconsistencies like that as well. I am not sure if it is a result of the map not being accurate or if it is the result of THunt not being overly picky with time and distance. Thats why I want to dig into this again and see, as clearly as we can, what is what.

Edit: To return again to the question at hand without diving deep into all things "timeline", how does the teapot work? Is it just a teleport? Or is it possible that the teapot can transport users through time? And how does all of this affect time as it relates to the MoM (as it was earlier pointed out that FM-K did not leave by the red circle)? There is clearly a time/space issue on the table even if my most conservative estimates on the timeline are wrong. And while I am wanting to get back into timeline discussions if there is interest, it is the issue of time and space as it relates to the MoM that I would like to try to chase down in this thread.

Final edit: I have retitled this thread to better reflect the question on the table here. If I do get into the timeline, I will make a new thread for it.

[RedwoodElf]

Redwood - while I like the map, I have wondered about seeming inconsistencies like that as well. I am not sure if it is a result of the map not being accurate or if it is the result of THunt not being overly picky with time and distance. Thats why I want to dig into this again and see, as clearly as we can, what is what.

I think the map is way off in some ways. for example, look how far the Cryptic Fall Warcamp is from their village. It's further away than the distance from Brassmoon to the Sunset Fields (and Forgath explicitly said that was "A long way" and asked why Kin was "So far north")

And where is the lake that was so close to the Cryptic Fall Warcamp?

And where do the rivers flow to anyway? Every river on Earth flows to an ocean or sea eventually (The Great Salt Lake is actually an inland sea like the Dead Sea) - they may pass THROUGH a lake, but I don't see any outflows that go to the ocean anywhere (Maybe there's an unshown river that flows into the big canyon and connects to an underground sea in the Underdark?)

[Caliban]

Are you for real? Getting your panties in a bunch over whether or not you think Thunk has adequately accounted for time passing between two groups who haven't been in contact with each other is more than a little silly. Here's your real answer: It's a comic. Stuff happens off panel, and isn't always explained. Deal with it.

[Wolfie]

Um, welcome to the Fandom and to the Forum.

Here we speculate and try to figure out the inner workings of THunt, including time lines and maps and other such stuff... and all for fun. If SGTdude wants to figure out the timeline and finds things a bit off, then we're welcome to speculate as to why.

Please don't put others down for being analytic about one of their favorite comics. It's things like this that keep the forum going and keeping people thinking. We're here to get along.

Thanks! and have fun.