"Timey Wimey Wibbly Wobbly"

[Liesmith]

In regards to the possibility of winners being returned the instant they left: they can't be. If that was true, then Forgath would step into the maze entrance first, and immediately step out before Minmax had a chance to step in. And Minmax would be in and out and showing off his racist axe while Kin hesitated. There must be some "common sense" safety measures in place with the Maze.

The important thing to remember about the Maze is that it is not some force of nature which blindly follows rules; it was intelligently constructed with a purpose in mind. While that purpose can ultimately be debated, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the Maze's creator would include a "conservation of time" protocol in the entrance, to ensure that the time experienced by the winning party is skipped...to a point.

A DM might reasonably include such a measure to prevent players from abusing the fact that they're entering and leaving the Maze at the same time. A DM would also reasonably put a cap on such a measure to prevent players from intentionally camping in the Victory Room in order to skip over time on the outside.

We just don't have enough information to go off of, so any supposition that there's something wrong with the timeline of the story seems ill-founded to me. Any discrepancies can (and have) been pointed out as potential travel-time differences. They could also be an element of the Maze, or the Teapot could be an intentionally tricky magic device, which teleports you to a person of your choosing...at your max run speed. We just don't know. The important thing is that Kore is about to get a racist axe in his stupid smug face.

[Gryphonic]

the Teapot could be an intentionally tricky magic device, which teleports you to a person of your choosing...at your max run speed.

I don't know if it's true, but it's an arbitrary and amusing condition to put on an artifact and now I'm imagining the green teaport motes zooming across the countryside at a steady 60 feet per round. What happens if one of the portees has a lower run speed than the other, and the person they're aiming at is moving?

[Liesmith]

A tangentially-related thought just occurred to me:

Wouldn't it have been a very interesting (if somewhat dickish) development if the time that passed while FMK was in the MoM was real time? As in our real time? They'd step into the MoM, battle for what seems like the better part of a day from their point of view, then they teleport out and almost two years have passed in the outside world, because two years have passed for us:

All of those urgent matters that each group was trying to take care of have been resolved, one way or another, and the world has changed and left FMK behind.

• Junior has wandered into Brassmoon and depopulated it, growing to encompass the entire area. now too large to be very mobile. He's a city-size orb of death, slowly floating across the countryside, spearing anything too slow or stupid to flee.
• The GAP has fallen to Kore. Big Ears and Thaco make a valiant last stand to allow Complains to get Fumbles to the village, and evacuate everyone before Kore arrives. Complains' shirking of goblin tradition at the Warcamp battle is kept secret, and he is made the new Chief. The demonic blood, and his smoldering guilt and rage have turned to hatred. His leadership brings the clan to greater power than it has ever known, but they are now warlike, and reviled by most other goblin clans, and other monster races.
• Distressed by the loss of the clan's spirit, Fumbles leaves to become a true adventurer and seek a cure for Complains' demonic infection. He joins up with the MAP. Two years in the future, he is level 5 in every class, and is a general badass.
• Biscuit makes a quiet life for himself, but eventually runs afoul of Kore. After a brief, vicious battle, Kore lies dead, and Biscuit lives only long enough to reflect on a job well done before bleeding to death, as well.
• Dies Horribly, being the only thing capable of wounding Junior, is on the run. Junior moves very slowly now, but he never stops. Dies travels as far as he can in a single day, then Junior implacably catches up during the night. Dies has a plan, though. He's heard about a place where there rests a weapon of immense power...a weapon that also houses a world separated from time and space. If only he can lure Junior close enough...

[RedwoodElf]

A tangentially-related thought just occurred to me:

Wouldn't it have been a very interesting (if somewhat dickish) development if the time that passed while FMK was in the MoM was real time? As in our real time? They'd step into the MoM, battle for what seems like the better part of a day from their point of view, then they teleport out and almost two years have passed in the outside world, because two years have passed for us:

What would be worse would be if time spent in the MOM was cumulative. 1.9 million runs, assuming each run takes an average of 8 hours for a group to reach the treasure room, comes to about 1700 years.

[SGTdude]

What would be worse would be if time spent in the MOM was cumulative. 1.9 million runs, assuming each run takes an average of 8 hours for a group to reach the treasure room, comes to about 1700 years.

Someone fanfic this now! It would make an awesome story. Forgath and Minmax 1700 years later!

DO IT!

[Tofu]

Here's an inspiring option for depicting narrative and time

http://xkcd.com/657/

[Kore]

A flaw in argument as already mentioned is saying everything that happens is depicted in comic. For example how often do we see parties eating, pooping, etc?

Now consider that each party has monsters and those who have associated with monsters. So extra time passes as they plant seeds of evil along their journey. So for Kin might carve crude pictures of large breasted snakes on trees with message "For a good time call a Kin!" Or Big ears might strip naked and curse the gods while dancing around The Axe to help free the demon trapped inside. These sort of things take time but may not be important enough to depict in comic.

[Liesmith]

Here's an inspiring option for depicting narrative and time

http://xkcd.com/657/

The one for Primer is irresponsibly accurate.

[Gryphonic]

Kin might carve crude pictures of large breasted snakes on trees with message "For a good time call a Kin!" Or Big ears might strip naked and curse the gods while dancing around The Axe to help free the demon trapped inside.

Those images are going to keep me laughing for the next update or two.
Thank you for spreading cheer as well as blood splatters.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm sorry, I must be confused.

Can someone lay out the exact reason we allegedly "know" that the two parties have taken different number of days to accomplish all they've done so far? As far as I can tell...

We know Minmax and friends spent X* days in or around Brassmoon City after the goblins left.
We know Minmax and friends spent Y* days traveling to the Maze of Many, after killing Dellyn and leaving Brassmoon.
We think MAYBE possibly some time elapsed in the Goblins-world while they were adventuring in the other dimension. Call that Z* days.

We know that the Goblin Adventuring Party spent A* days traveling straight from Brassmoon to the dungeon they are now at.

But what possible evidence do we have that X+Y+Z does NOT equal A?

We cannot reasonably assume that Thunt shows every moment of the goblins' lives, or of Minmax-and-friends' lives. Whole days might pass without our even seeing them. That is entirely normal in webcomics as a whole, and in D&D campaigns in particular.

Unless we assume that every day of screen time is accounted for, how can we possibly know that there is some kind of time discrepancy? All we really know is that Minmax and the Goblins aren't synchronized, in that Thunt is free to spend a month drawing strips about one group and this does not imply that time is passing for the other group in the background. That in no way implies that he can't bring the two groups together at the same time, or that time travel would be needed to make this happen.
_____________________________

[Note that any of these variables could be 1, or a larger number, or a fraction or a decimal- but at any rate we know they're all positive or zero. Z in particular could be zero.]

[warrl]

Time taken to travel is usually not included as there is no meaningful dialogue.

Not just travel time, as was demonstrated later that evening...

[SGTdude]

I'm sorry, I must be confused.

Can someone lay out the exact reason we allegedly "know" that the two parties have taken different number of days to accomplish all they've done so far?

See also: my signature.

I am not going to state how many days have occured as of the most recent strip because I am not there yet in the timeline. But by the time I catch up to the latest strip all should be very clear. You can feel free to jump in the discussion there, but, as I mentioned in another thread, you simply can't try to discuss the timelines in the comic intelligently without laying out everything from start to finish because there are few potentially problematic moments. But I dont exactly expect that to keep people from trying.

[Sessine]

I admire your thoroughness and persistence, SGTdude. This is the stuff of legendary fanac!

But... for myself, I confess I am not going to follow your details. I'm going to assume that Thunt has the timeline all worked out in a notebook somewhere. If he says the parties meet now, then they simply do, and that's good enough for me. Here's why I think that way: Okay, suppose you did manage to demonstrate that, adding up all the clues left in the comic, they shouldn't be able to meet. Three possible explanations would occur to me:

1. You'd made a mistake in your calculations. This isn't likely given how careful you're being, but it could happen.

2. Thunt made a mistake in his original calculations. This is even less likely, because Goblins has been the center of his entire life for years, but hey... if he did, I really don't want to know.

3. As Simon_Jester suggests, Thunt simply skipped over some segments of time because they weren't relevant to the tale he wanted to tell. This is very common practice, and I would think it would be overwhelmingly the most probable way to account for any potential discrepancy.

[OnceUponATime]

you didn't factor in travelling time (not time travel - the time it takes people to get from one place to another). if the Maze of Many is a day's travel farther away from the city than the dungeon crawl, it kills your whole argument. (and sorry, people, for cutting your conversation, I was too lazy to read the whole thing so I just responded to the main post)

[SGTdude]

well let me be clear: no one can claim to speak for what I think about time and the most recent strips (even myself in posts towards the beginning of this thread) because I am in the process of reanalyzing and presenting everything about time in the comic. I haven't caught up to the latest comic, so I cant speak for how that works yet. I just mentioned it as a source for possible explanations of how things happen in regards to time in the comic (because there just doesnt seem to be a "one stop" thread for those kinds of answers other than mine).

But whether time travel did or did not occur in the latest strips should not be the subject of discussion in this thread (as I, the original proponent of the idea, have taken it off the table for discussion) and instead be about how other things work in the comic in regards to time (such as the tea pot or the MoM). Or the thread could just fade out too.


EDIT: I had to throw in this last bit just because reason demands it

you didn't factor in... I was too lazy to read the whole thing so I just responded to the main post)

One can not accurately claim anything about an argument that they have not completely read. It is very easy to shoot holes in theories that you do not have all the facts on. Certainly much easier than to take the time to carefully present all evidence on a subject whether it supports your position or not in order to present a clear argument. So, I dont really see what you are trying to accomplish.

Regardless, I am done posting in this thread. Wherever it goes from here, it will go without me, and I will keep my time-related conversations in the timeline.

Thanks

[BuildsLegos]

you didn't factor in travelling time (not time travel - the time it takes people to get from one place to another). if the Maze of Many is a day's travel farther away from the city than the dungeon crawl, it kills your whole argument. (and sorry, people, for cutting your conversation, I was too lazy to read the whole thing so I just responded to the main post)

The map is plain as day, did it not occur to you to take a look yourself?

[RedwoodElf]

you didn't factor in travelling time (not time travel - the time it takes people to get from one place to another). if the Maze of Many is a day's travel farther away from the city than the dungeon crawl, it kills your whole argument. (and sorry, people, for cutting your conversation, I was too lazy to read the whole thing so I just responded to the main post)

The map is plain as day, did it not occur to you to take a look yourself?

Like most medieval maps, the map is very very inaccurate. It's only good for showing relative position, NOT accurate scale.

As just one example, note how the entrance to the Dragon's Maw dungeon crawl is nearly a map inch from the nearest river. Yet the Goblins are STILL WET from crossing the river when Kore attacks them, and the entrance to the dungeon is RIGHT THERE. However, the distance from the Cryptic Fall Warcamp to their village would make one inch nearly a full day's travel, not a couple of minutes.

[BuildsLegos]

Medieval maps aren't THAT bad; I suspect there are 2 rivers afoot: The wide charted one which is either shallow or has a bridge over it, and the light rapids that we see the GAP cross.