Nov 16 - Back to Goblins

[RedwoodElf]

Kore is a paladin (proved by when the Axe went right through him) but he can't be "good" by definition, as he has attacked from behind (Chief and the guy in the hut (can't remember his name atm)), he killed Targoth, who hadn't done anything at all beyond being in the wrong place. YardMeat is most likely correct that his paladin-hood is retained by a curse/blessing.

He reminds me of the Assassin in Serenity

Attacking from behind isn't evil...it's Unchivalrous. Paladins are not only bound by Law and Good, but as they are KNIGHTS, they are bound by the code of Chivalry (No attacking from behind, no turning your back on an enemy, Defending the weak, Respect for ladies, Accepting all challenges from a fellow knight, never breaking your word, etc.)

Also, there is a caveat on attacking from behind. The prohibition is limited to attacking UNAWARE opponents from behind. In the thick of battle, striking from behind is almost inevitable, and if an opponent turns and flees, he's fair game.

[Wolfie]

you're right. I should have put that part in a different sentence. Still, killing a dwarven child for nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time isn't exactly "good".

[thinkslogically]

But that dwarven kid picked up his wooden sword to try and fight back, which would have been a clear indication to Kore of the evil seed planted in the boy. Allowed to grow up, that kid would probably hate Kore, and grow into a monster sympathiser or turn towards neutral-evil given enough time.

So from the perspective of destroying even potential evil in the world, I think it's telling.

I'm not sure what Kore's curse is, but my money's on it being less about his alignment and more about his inability to see anything good in the world (except, perhaps, in himself). It doesn't explain how he can get away with torture, but it does get him out of helping (paladin's don't have to help anyone if it would constitute an evil act or the continuation of evil I think), because if everyone is evil, then he is obliged to destroy them.

[ChuckDaRighteous]

A lot of good is dependent on the perception of good. If you kill a good person most would by standard definitions call it an evil act. Now if that good person was infected with a terrible disease that would slowly and painfully kill them over the next 20 hours, then most people would say you saved them from a lot of pain, or did a good act. This is what Kore is doing on an overly extreme level. He saw the dwarf child as infected with something that can't be cured. He perceived that as a good act even though it most certainly wasn't. He even apologizes to the kid explaining how it was necessary for the good of the world. So I think he's just a good paladin with a warped mind. Either that or he's a paladin of tyranny or paladin of slaughter alt class, but I don't see either of those as likely.

[YardMeat]

So I think he's just a good paladin with a warped mind. Either that or he's a paladin of tyranny or paladin of slaughter alt class, but I don't see either of those as likely.

Nah, he's probably a core paladin. But I don't think it is as simple as his mind being warped. I think the curse/blessing probably goes a little bit deeper than that. Good is an actual, independent, objective, supernatural force in D&D. Something besides perspective is going on here, and I doubt it is as simple as a deity allowing him some leeway for the greater good, since paladin abilities don't come from deities but from the force of good itself.

I'm thinking he may have been present during the Axe event and that the demon that was trapped managed to curse him somehow. Now he runs around committing the vilest evil, while convinced that he is good thanks to his powers. Maybe getting Kore's hands on the Axe is exactly what the demon needs to be freed.

[wyntirrose]

I'm brand new to the forums, so I apologize if these points/questions have been brought up already:

For Kin's return: When Forgath touched the psionic gears back in the Maze of Many, his beard returned and he suddenly remembered that he had always had a beard. Is it possible that that wasn't a healing effect and was instead a reversal effect, and that if Kin touches the gears again (say, in an attempt to help the Kinship to rework the maze) her KEN necklace will return and everyone will remember its existence? that would completely unhinge Ruby's machinations and lead to Kin following Forgath and Minmax out of the maze.

As for Kor and the upcoming battle: Everyone is referring to Kor as being Good (and by that I assume Lawful Good), but since when does he have to be Good? There are Lawful Evil paladins, so isn't it possible that he's just deluded/psychotic? I don't recall ever seeing him mentioning the god he follows ... Honestly, I'm not sure how him being Lawful Evil will help matters any, but you never know.

Again, if these questions were already brought up and answered, I apologize.

[Wolfie]

Minmax touched the sphere too and it didn't bring back his backpack or previous clothing, so I would venture to say no it won't bring back the necklace.

Kore is based on 2.0 or 3.0 (?) rules, I do believe, where Paladins must be Lawful Good.

[thinkslogically]

I think Goblins is 3.x + homebrew

[wyntirrose]

Ah, yes, I had forgotten about the backpack. Well so much for that hopeful theory ...

As for Kore, thanks for the clarification. I haven't played D&D since I can't remember when, and there were still Evil paladins in the gaming world.

[ChuckDaRighteous]

Good is an actual, independent, objective, supernatural force in D&D.

I disagree with this. I've never played a campaign this way. If a character believes he is doing the right thing, his alignment wouldn't shift negatively, if he'd been tricked or misguided. The character (if properly role played) may later feel the need for atonement, retribution, or a quest to undo his wrong upon finding out his hadn't been good but he'd still remain good. I suppose you could play it your way, but that would be more of something left up to the DM than an actual choice.

Kore is based on 2.0 or 3.0 (?) rules, I do believe, where Paladins must be Lawful Good.

The whole comic is 3.5 if I recall correctly. Thunt said something to that effect when he considered and dismissed updating it to 4.0

[Wolfie]

I think Goblins is 3.x + homebrew

Yes, but IIRC, Thunt had explained at some point that Kore is a core character from the Players Handbook and he would be explained in due time.

[YardMeat]

I disagree with this. I've never played a campaign this way.

Many DMs don't run their games this way, but this is the way that "Good" is described in the core rulebooks.

If a character believes he is doing the right thing, his alignment wouldn't shift negatively, if he'd been tricked or misguided.

Perhaps not if they had been misguided or tricked. Intent obviously has to play some role. However, there has to be more to "Good" than "the belief that your actions are justified".

The character (if properly role played) may later feel the need for atonement, retribution, or a quest to undo his wrong upon finding out his hadn't been good but he'd still remain good.

To an extent, sure. Assuming they were tricked or misguided, that makes sense. And as I've said, it could be that Kore is misguided. Maybe that's part of the curse. But "misguided" still implies that he is wrong in doing what he is doing and that his actions can't rightfully be called "good". It might make is actions forgivable, but it does not make them good.

I suppose you could play it your way, but that would be more of something left up to the DM than an actual choice.

Actually, it isn't "my way". It's the way that "Good" is described in the core rule books. "Good" is not just an idea but an actual divine power in itself, independent of perceptions or opinions. But yes, it is up to the DM. The DM can decide that good and evil are perceptions rather than supernatural, independent forces just like he can decide that monks don't exist in his setting or that all elves are 9 foot tall, hairless and bright purple.

A comment I left in another thread might help explain this some more:

HereÔÇÖs what I was looking for:

Divine Spells
Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells. The divine forces of law and good power paladin spells.

So ÔÇ£divine forcesÔÇØ are clearly something distinct from deities. Clerics may choose to serve an ideal rather than a god, and since it states here that their two sources of power are deities or divine forces, impersonal divine forces must be the source of power for non-theistic Clerics. And the ÔÇ£divine forces of law and goodÔÇØ that fuel paladin spells and abilities are something comparable to the ÔÇ£divine force of natureÔÇØ that powers druid and ranger abilities. That is, something impersonal, more like (pardon the comparison) the Force than a god. Like druids and rangers, paladins can certainly have deities, but they are not the source of their power.

There are two kinds of divine sources in D&D: deities and divine forces. I'm assuming that deities are personal while divine forces are impersonal forces, but I could be wrong there. Either way, divine forces of good and law exist in D&D (unless the DM decides to exclude them), meaning that good must be something distinct from simple opinion and perspective.

More to the point:

Good and Evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are forces that define the cosmos . . . good and evil are objective states, not just opinions.

[Jochi]

something nobody has commented on is that MinMax still has his purple eye, which means that when Kin leaves (assuming the reset doesn't reset her tail) she will have her green tail.

Forgath's Invulni-beard is also still there. One consequence is that, unless they eye and beard having more time to 'set' is significant, Psimax probably survived being sent back to his own reality. Which means he may come seeking revenge at some point. It doesn't really affect the odds of whether Oblivious will survive being pulled out of the Maze or not. We'll see that next panel or so.

Dies isn't Chief of the clan, he turned down the offer:

Good point. It's also quite probable that Duv was LYING about having the authority to make Chiefs of other tribes. She wanted Quislings, and other than Dies and Fox, seemed likely to get a few.

There's ... the possibility that this is the last time he'll be able to use [Oblivious] 'normally' since technically the sword is still in the MoM right now. It could be that removing it from that particular space-time bubble breaks some of its magic and we won't know for an update or two.

It occurs to me that, if the 'breaking' is spectacular enough, it might distract Minmax and Forgath enough for the surviving GAP to slip past them, leaving them as an obstacle for Kore and setting up Forgath's death by 'another Dwarf', not to mention 'lots of screaming'.

Kore ...reminds me of the Assassin in Serenity

I've said the same thing. I expect that he sees himself as the last being tainted by contact with Evil he will remove from the world he has cleansed. Leaving mostly butterflies I suppose.

Also, so much for the Kinslayer axe being used by JadeKin against Ruby. By Forgath against Kore IS still a possibility, but have you considered the possibility that Kore will wrest it from Minmax and use it on Forgath?

[gordo]

Everyone is referring to Kor as being Good (and by that I assume Lawful Good), but since when does he have to be Good? There are Lawful Evil paladins, so isn't it possible that he's just deluded/psychotic? I don't recall ever seeing him mentioning the god he follows ... Honestly, I'm not sure how him being Lawful Evil will help matters any, but you never know.

On 3.0 and the following version, Paladins are 99% Lawful Good. In some universes some gods allow neutral good ou lawful neutral. But even this is pretty rare, LG is still the rule.

There are some other classes resembling Lawful Evil paladins, but they aren't Paladins by RAW. The axe would probally hit the s**t out of then.

Also, some features like Lay on Hands are Paladin-only. Anti-paladins or whatever get to channel negative energy, not the positive needed to actually heal someone.

[SGTdude]

[Edit: I didnt post this then edit it on purpose. I made a big post here because I couldnt post a new topic. I figured it was some kind of mod-approved thing and would eventually be given access in a week or something. But I just looked and now I have access, so I am going to post this in its own thread rather than muck this up here. For those of you who didnt see the original, you can either view that thread and the question of chronological integrity I bring up or ignore it. Either way, thanks.]

[RedwoodElf]

Kore ...reminds me of the Assassin in Serenity

I've said the same thing. I expect that he sees himself as the last being tainted by contact with Evil he will remove from the world he has cleansed. Leaving mostly butterflies I suppose.

Also, so much for the Kinslayer axe being used by JadeKin against Ruby. By Forgath against Kore IS still a possibility, but have you considered the possibility that Kore will wrest it from Minmax and use it on Forgath?

Maybe a bit like This Guy...

[ChuckDaRighteous]

On 3.0 and the following version, Paladins are 99% Lawful Good. In some universes some gods allow neutral good ou lawful neutral. But even this is pretty rare, LG is still the rule.

In Unearthed Arcana, they expand it to the 4 corner alignments. LG becomes paladin of honor, CG is paladin of freedom, LE is paladin of tyranny, CE is paladin of slaughter. I've actually gone by these because I feel that a paladin is the representation of extreme devotion to ones beliefs, so why do those beliefs always have to be LG. The altered versions do a good job of representing the altered beliefs.

[Restomak]

I'm starting to think there is more and more merit with the minority opinion posted here that the prophecy of Forgath's death and the prophesy regarding how it will "end badly" for both Minmax and Forgath should they meet the GAP are actually separate events. The wall only spoke of Forgath's death when Forgath mentioned the goblin had said it, and did not link the two. In addition, Young and Beautiful did not explicitly link the two prophecies; she only said them immediately after one-another, causing our minds to link the two.

That all said, something pretty miraculous would need to occur for Kore to not catch and kill at least one of our many heroes. I predict a brief fight between Minmax and Complains of Names during which alignment-seeing Big Ears and reasonable Forgath quickly come to an understanding and stop the fighting. However, the time required for all of that means Kore on their heels. That bridge is, as Thaco said, very long and has no cover.

[Gryphonic]

I am not sure about the rule saying which place you get when you exit the maze, does anybody still remember that rule? Can you pick where to go? Do you exit where you got in?

I think you're supposed to exist where you came in, but they mentioned that they can override that with the psionic gears because they all want to stay hanging out together. They have to trick the maze into thinking they're a team I think.

I have seen repeated statements in the comic that parties are returned to their reality, but not specifying where or when. Being returned to the place you entered sounds reasonable, since the alternative is being ported to somewhere random in your world. And Psimax was ported out with no chance to interact with any mechanism to determine where he would go aside from 'his reality'. It is possible the gears could affect this, but they didn't exist until he made them.

If someone can find a page that says otherwise, please post it!

[Nerre]

Technically Kore is a "good" character and he didn't have trouble fighting him, simply disliked striking him from behind.

Um, no. Kore is not "good" by any stretch of the imagination. Unless we start getting into really bendy "there is no good or evil" territory--and there is no indication that THunt is doing so--Kore is clearly not of a "good" alignment. His ability to retain his paladin status while not being good is somehow related to a curse.

I thought D&D allowed somebody to keep his paladin levels even if he goes multiclass into something else. Maybe this is what Kore does. He started as a paladin, but lost his lawfulness on the way, now only being a evil warrior who earlier in his carrier got some paladin levels.

[Gryphonic]

He could have multiclassed without losing paladin levels, but I believe evil actions would still remove his ability to actually use them anymore. If he was anyone else.

[YardMeat]

On 3.0 and the following version, Paladins are 99% Lawful Good. In some universes some gods allow neutral good ou lawful neutral. But even this is pretty rare, LG is still the rule.

What universes allow neutral good and lawful neutral paladins? Paladin abilities don't come from gods, so I'm not sure why they would have a say-so. Still, perhaps they could use some sort of magic to intervene.

Whatever cursed/blessed Kore, however, I highly doubt it is a good being. My money's on evil.

I thought D&D allowed somebody to keep his paladin levels even if he goes multiclass into something else. Maybe this is what Kore does. He started as a paladin, but lost his lawfulness on the way, now only being a evil warrior who earlier in his carrier got some paladin levels.

Sure, he could multiclass, but he would lose his paladin abilities. Anyone with paladin levels that breaks their code of conduct loses their spells and abilities. They get to keep their BAB, their base saves, skills, and weapon/armor proficiencies, but that's about it. X levels of paladin basically convert to X levels of fighter, but without the extra feats.

[Hertzyscowicz]

Oh, joy, the serpent prophecy speculation dies and the very next page of the same thread, the Kore speculation starts all over again.

[Wolfie]

Oh, joy, the serpent prophecy speculation dies and the very next page of the same thread, the Kore speculation starts all over again.

And it will until both are completely explained.

Welcome to the forums

[Gryphonic]

Beating the undead horse is a popular sport!
At least it grew out of something directly related to the current update (Ears vs FM), and Kore himself is only a couple of dozen yards off-panel here.
The prophecies and Kore; the twin gravitational wells of the Goblins Discussion forum.